EGOSOFT and Deep Silver announce X Rebirth

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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Mightysword
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Post by Mightysword »

Nanook wrote: I was going to give a point by point rebuttal to what you posted, but in the interests of brevity, I'll just say this.
Same for me, but there is one point I have to be specific:
It really does seem like you've simply not given the economies in the X3 games enough of a chance. Perhaps you were expecting it to be easy like in X2.
We're been going at it for a while now, and there seem to be a severe miscommunication. At the very core of my argument, you can say my problem is that X3's brokeness make it "ridiculously" easy. In fact, this quote came from our last discussion.
- It's broken because the trading credit wasn't there for the player to earn or to look for, it's forced down my throat. Put it like this, it might be challenge to because the best student among a population good and excellent student, but it's not possible, and it's meaningful when you become the best. X3's brokeness is like become the best student among a population of delinquent, where you can success even without trying. I prefer a system where I have to fight for it compare to one that put it on the plate and beg me to take it, in fact I would be punished if I dont accept it.
So I don't know why you said the problem is because I "expect X3 to be as easy as X2", since my problem is that exact opposite. :?

If thing goes my way, I would make all AI factories work exactly like player factories, meaning a fleet for freighter all set to a 2-3 radius. Yes, I imagine that would be really hard on the player, but if you want to talk about competition then that's the only way. I want to be in a position that if I put a factory there, it's because the AI is really not able to supply the demand when they're working full steam. Or if there is no hole, maybe I would be forced to musle my way in (aka blow up some factories). Right now there is no point to do any of that. The "hole" in the economy wasn't because the AI not producing enough, it's because they can sell it, and why bother blow thing up and take the rep hit when their existence means nothing anyway.

You said you rarely touch the economy aspect and play as a fighter, maybe that's why you don't see the problem or it's not really visible. I have play fighting game, trading game, or a mix bag game and I can't help but noticing thing. Maybe because you rarely build so you don't see it. But for me (as an example) after scanning a 3 sector radius and see at least 10 Cahoona Bakeries, most sit at full stock, then I happily plot down my own Cahoona Bakery. Trust me, seeing that lone Bakery is always sold out and turning huge profit for me doesn't put a smile on my face, it just make me depressed. You keep lamenting on competition and challenger, but I never see it. This is what I meant by you never need to think, you put a factory down and it works, in restropect that make it even easier than the X2 SPP.


My goal in game was never to amass a huge empire, or to be a billionair, or have mega fleet. I just want to immerse myself in the universe, I won't mind being a poor broken mercenary if I see my universe alive, I'll trade for it with a death universe where I am king anyday. And frankly most of the thing I mentioned above are just big killers and I can't label them anything else but broken. Maybe not in your book, but certainly in my book.
Wolfie276
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Post by Wolfie276 »

Mightysword: While the vanilla game does not add much competition, have you tried playing with scripts such as Improved Races?

I've a very fluctuating and competing market, due to the fact that multiple sectors are completely destroyed by an another race (Hot War :twisted: ). I prefer not to build self-sustainable complexes as then I can always have the upper hand. If you do destroy stations in X2, or something else destroys it, then it would be gone. The market would be yours.
Nanook
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Post by Nanook »

Mightysword wrote:...
So I don't know why you said the problem is because I "expect X3 to be as easy as X2", since my problem is that exact opposite. :? ...
Interesting. I find just the opposite, that X2's economy is static and boring. It may seem hard at the beginning, but once you've played one game for a while, you get to know exactly how everything is going to work out. And the next time you start a new game, you know exactly how to proceed. Absolutely no variation.

In the X3 games, on the other hand, no two games ever play out the same, especially on the trading end of things, because the economy is much more dynamic. The dynamics are created by GoD and the NPC free traders, things that don't exist in X2.

I really hope Egosoft is going to further enhance the systems they used in Reunion and TC for Rebirth. I'd really hate for them to go back to the boring, static 'economy' in X2.
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Mightysword
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Post by Mightysword »

Nanook wrote: ...
I think you oversale the dynamic part. It has some element, but nowhere enough to make "no two game the same". I must have played 4-5 TC games over the years (and a few Reunion prior), I hardly see anything to warrant the "no two game are the same". And being dynamic doesn't equate to being challenging. Like it doesn't matter if you have 2 possible roads or 100 possible roads, it means little if they all lead to exit with same afford. :wink:


And yes, I don't want them to go back either. I said X3 was easier, but by no mean X2 was hard. They can use the X3 model, as long as they make it work. Dynamic is a big word, an in my experience 9 out of 10 games trying to do it fell flat on their face ... and I wouldn't say X3 was the 10th game.


My wish is pretty simple, as long as I don't see a fab with full stock selling and another fab in vicinity with zero stock buying having an extended staring contest, I'm happy. I'll pick a challenge but static game over a dynamic but snoozing game anyday, it'll be great if they can do both, but that's where my preference lie. :)
Skeeter
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Post by Skeeter »

I liked x2 economy i knew where i was with it. The simpler the better imo. I really didn't want a challenge at all i just wanted to make money. Without the money the gameplay of trading as in building and setting up stations was mega dull.

Duno why they keep messing with the economy trying to make it harder or realistic. Trading in a realistic environment is terrible.

About the GOD engine. Wasn't that in x2? Which btw was the worst decision ever. As it blew up factories and stuff which just makes ppl build em again which frustrates instead of challenges.
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Sandalpocalypse
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Post by Sandalpocalypse »

Everyone's entitled to their preferences but i really dont understand preferring x2 over x3 for its _economy_. Part of the whole advantage of the x-series over say Freelancer or Escape Velocity Nova is a dynamic economy, both of which were just a matter of rinse repeating a good route when you found it, until you had the credits you needed. And x3 clearly has a more dynamic and better balanced economy than x2 does.

and the SPP thing alone broke X2's tycoon aspect horribly. I don't even like building self sustained complexes - i like maximum interaction with the NPC economy - in x2 that was discouraged because the best profitssss were just spamming SPPs!
Irrational factors are clearly at work.
Wolfie276
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Post by Wolfie276 »

Skeeter wrote:I liked x2 economy i knew where i was with it. The simpler the better imo. I really didn't want a challenge at all i just wanted to make money. Without the money the gameplay of trading as in building and setting up stations was mega dull.

Duno why they keep messing with the economy trying to make it harder or realistic. Trading in a realistic environment is terrible.

About the GOD engine. Wasn't that in x2? Which btw was the worst decision ever. As it blew up factories and stuff which just makes ppl build em again which frustrates instead of challenges.
Really? A space trading and empire building game shouldn't have realistic economy?

I disagree.
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reheat
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TrackIR might be a good item to consider for the new X-Game

Post by reheat »

Just a note to anyone that might be interested. I recently obtained a TrackIR for my flight Sims, and it is probably the next bets thing to a joystick.

As they say "put your head in the game" for their slogan. I have been using it for a bit now, and it is amazing. I would suggest this for the upcoming X Game too. It would be nice if it could also be retro-fitted to work on the earlier games as well.

They have a rather simple looking SDK, and it seems like it would be easy to implement.

Only problem is I don't know who to connect with here at Egosoft to make the suggestion, or even help with implementing this. :)
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snwboardn21
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Post by snwboardn21 »

For me the God engine that brought stations back to life ruined it for me... I think there should be an option if you want a God engine to do that or not...

I want emersion, if I get to a point where I can wipe a race off the map I want to be able to do it... I want a system where if the Argons don't own enough resources to build ships they can't, I want to be paid to cut off trading lanes to disrupt a war and sway it one way or the other. Then have that same race come begging at my sytem gate willing to pay 10x market value so they can finally build their fleet back up...

But that is just me I suppose...
"It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt"
lord yu
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Post by lord yu »

For me the God engine that brought stations back to life ruined it for me... I think there should be an option if you want a God engine to do that or not...

I want emersion, if I get to a point where I can wipe a race off the map I want to be able to do it... I want a system where if the Argons don't own enough resources to build ships they can't, I want to be paid to cut off trading lanes to disrupt a war and sway it one way or the other. Then have that same race come begging at my sytem gate willing to pay 10x market value so they can finally build their fleet back up...

But that is just me I suppose...
It's not just you....

And by the way, I don't think that docking a ship or station to start a mission in X2 was annoying, i was rather nice, to sit in Ban Dannas office and talk to him...

BR
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BigBANGtheory
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Post by BigBANGtheory »

Is Q4 2011 still a realistic window for release?
mrscribbler
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Post by mrscribbler »

snwboardn21 wrote:For me the God engine that brought stations back to life ruined it for me... I think there should be an option if you want a God engine to do that or not...

I want emersion, if I get to a point where I can wipe a race off the map I want to be able to do it... I want a system where if the Argons don't own enough resources to build ships they can't, I want to be paid to cut off trading lanes to disrupt a war and sway it one way or the other. Then have that same race come begging at my sytem gate willing to pay 10x market value so they can finally build their fleet back up...

But that is just me I suppose...
That was always one of the problems with GoD. Ultimately, GoD was never a very realistic simulator. It does serve the purpose, however, limited as it is, to provide the player with a semblance of an economy. But like all incomplete simulations, the greater the attempt is made to make it seem realistic, the more glaring its faults are.

Now, I was going to say that a realistic economy simulator would be orders of magnitude more complex, however after thinking about it it's not THAT complicated.

Start with factories creating trade deals between each other, then put out a call for delivery to NPC traders and the player. Payment would depend on distance, local pirate activity, etc. Much like the current deliver from x station to this station missions. Just so long as it doesn't scale with player rank (although player ranks would indeed be a good way to limit who can take on the mission).

After that, deal with commodities as commodities. If you buy 100 E-Cells, it's going to be a fairly standard price. If you buy 10000, it'll be a different, lower, price. You could even buy x amount of E-Cells in future production from a plant. So could other traders.

Finally, create long-term contracts between factories. Unlike trade deals, long-term contracts means that factories will receive all their resources during that term from a particular supplier. Not always a good idea, but useful, especially when you have a deal with a larger corp that can give you guarantees of delivery.

Of course there's more to it all. But the important thing is that there be no creation of credits from thin air. The only source of credits "outside" the economy should be planets which consume different products. The majority of food products, for instance, should be going to the core worlds. The majority of manufactured consumer/industrial products should be going to border worlds that are still in development.

Of course, the big problem with the series is UI. How do you present all this stuff? Egosoft has dropped the ball on UI too often for me to be anything but skeptical at the UI we can expect.
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Post by PTR »

Maybe, instead of just destroying a station, the station should just go 'dark' (no production, selling or buying). If the player is interested, he can buy the station: if the supply/demand gets higher a NPC corporation can start it up again. Destroying it is kind of wasteful... ;)

As for X:R: in the video's there were objects looking like freight drones, so maybe the whole distribution of wares part (which was somewhat of a bottleneck) will be totally different.
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costi
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Post by costi »

Nanook wrote:
Mightysword wrote:....
I was going to give a point by point rebuttal to what you posted, but in the interests of brevity, I'll just say this.

It really does seem like you've simply not given the economies in the X3 games enough of a chance. Perhaps you were expecting it to be easy like in X2. But the NPC free traders in Reunion and TC aren't going to make it that easy for you. X2 had no real NPC trading challenges. The X3's changed all that for the better, IMO.

I've played combat-oriented games, especially as a pirate, where I never built a factory and did very little trading, only selling my loot. And while the economy started out in a mess, it gradually improved to where most NPC factories were doing just fine, producing all kinds of end products including plenty of weapons and shields and such for me to plunder from various traders. In fact, later in the game it's hard for the player to manually trade and make much of a profit simply because the NPC traders become too efficient. If the economy was as bad as you say, that could never happen.

Some of the issues you had seem to be those that were fixed with later patches, such as the Tractor Beam factories disappearing and never coming back. That was because there wasn't any place to sell them, so the NPC's never bought any. Egosoft fixed that by excluding them from the GoD engine and respawning any that were destroyed.

I've been playing TC since just after release, and especially with the later patches, the economy works just fine. For me, X2's economy is just too simplistic and predictable (boring). I like change and unpredictability in my games. :)
Better? I build an Ore mine in a sector with two SPPs and the NPC not even once supplies it with energy when it ran out (it had tons of money and the SPPs were almost full). In the end I had to buy a freighter and send it on supply runs...
Not to mention that without player intervention (ie. building factories and sending traders) the universe would slowly grind to a halt because of GoD killing "ineffective" stations. All it takes to notice this is 15-20 hours, when suddenly equipping an M6 or M7 requires you to fly around the whole galaxy, because the just aren't enough guns and shields on the market.
That's just ridiculous.
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Post by Skeeter »

Wolfie276 wrote:
Skeeter wrote:I liked x2 economy i knew where i was with it. The simpler the better imo. I really didn't want a challenge at all i just wanted to make money. Without the money the gameplay of trading as in building and setting up stations was mega dull.

Duno why they keep messing with the economy trying to make it harder or realistic. Trading in a realistic environment is terrible.

About the GOD engine. Wasn't that in x2? Which btw was the worst decision ever. As it blew up factories and stuff which just makes ppl build em again which frustrates instead of challenges.
Really? A space trading and empire building game shouldn't have realistic economy?

I disagree.
I rather like having established trade lanes instead of them changing all the time. Helps know where to buy where to sell stuff. All that goes out the window when it is too dynamic. As that is what i liked about x2, elite frontier (animal skins trick).
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Post by Virtualaughing »

X2 is the one and only space simulator where the shadows of an object done correctly. Shadows on other objects and the objects own surface aswell.
How silly when you go to the dark side of an object but the suns still shine on you :D
Messy or not but the complex construction and the Commercial Agent are the two better things in X3 than X2.

I don't like to use freelancer as a forexample on this site but the radio communications in X games are missing or it is completely wrong. How many times i got the message when i enter a gate " one of your ships is under attack..." and the part of where, is quiet. Comm window have to get individual window.

A nother one of my favorites when you build your complex and the taxi service like to collide with your stations causing damage on your reputation....
X to X3 is MENU SUPERIOR!
I think Egosoft has already worked out our doom, because Xenon AI will reach the stars! :D
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Post by Naroku »

Wow I get back and these boards are burning. I would love to see a economy that went from simple to small business to , corperation then mega corperation. Basicly even more options that x3 tc even.
As for GOD system it is OK atm ,but a new game means a better G.O.D. Just let us have the a few before new game options before a new game start like agressiveness of the game it self, AKA, normal, hard, or "oh really" settings to choose from.
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Nanook
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Post by Nanook »

costi wrote:...
Better? I build an Ore mine in a sector with two SPPs and the NPC not even once supplies it with energy when it ran out (it had tons of money and the SPPs were almost full). In the end I had to buy a freighter and send it on supply runs...
Well, boohoo! The mean old NPC's didn't get around to supplying one of your ore mines. It happens. They probably just found better deals elsewhere. Even if not, it can take a while before your factories are even noticed. As I stated, in my non-trading pirate games, the economy does slowly get better over time. Otherwise, I wouldn't have such a lucrative business stealing all those weapons and shields from the NPC's. :pirat:
Not to mention that without player intervention (ie. building factories and sending traders) the universe would slowly grind to a halt because of GoD killing "ineffective" stations.
This is a myth. It doesn't happen. At least, not in the latest patches. What version did you last extensively play? 1.2? :P
All it takes to notice this is 15-20 hours, when suddenly equipping an M6 or M7 requires you to fly around the whole galaxy, because the just aren't enough guns and shields on the market.
That's just ridiculous.
15-20 hours is nothing. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither is the X3 economy. What you're probably seeing is the result of the improved economy, and the NPC traders buying up the weapons and shields before you get to them. It's called competition. Don't believe me? Go scan a number of weapons and high tech traders. You'll see where all those weapons have gone. The game doesn't let the factories fill up as they did in X2 because of the NPC free traders.

It's not that the factories have disappeared. It's that their products get bought up and then sold to the equipment docks and military outposts. You want weapons? Go camp those stations and you'll get plenty, eventually. Lot's of TC players use the HUB as a gathering point for whatever they need. Add the ware to the HUB's list, set a trader to go collect the weapons at average price, and watch the slot for that weapon fill up in the HUB. I think you'll find there are plenty of weapons and shields and whatever available. Or you can just do what I do, steal 'em. :fg:

Yeah, the X3 economy is more complex than its predecessors. Most of us find that to be a good thing. You don't like it, stick to the simplistic one in X2 or go play Freelancer where there's no variability at all. But stop knocking the X3 economy simply because it's not 'easy' anymore. It's not broken. It's just a lot more complex.
Have a great idea for the current or a future game? You can post it in the [L3+] Ideas forum.

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Stop The Comparisons!

Post by David Howland »

Idle Speculation:
1. There is getting too much comparing with old games, nearly every time someone suggests what they want recently, they say like in X*. Well if we know anything we know this game is going to be totally different to previous X games. Not only is it a totally new game engine but there have been suggestions of Egosoft being tired of certain aspects of previous X games, eg. gated sectors. Also a version is to be produced for at least one console, that must put restrictions on the way the game engine can work, as they will want minimum conversion problems.
2. Egosoft have bent the X story almost out of recognition to fit this new game? What, the largest most powerful introduction to recent X games the Terans with their most powerful home planet defence in the universe, the Torus, which in turn is protected by a multi layer system of unique gates, this is what the Xenon are supposed to destroyed first in the X universe, come on! What has this been invented for; to allow the player to lead a group of Teran escapies to a safe place in the X universe. Just how are we supposed to find a safe place in an X Universe, that for us is smaller because the gate system is broken and the Xenon seem to be the most widespread, powerfull race in the universe. Talk about an unlikely RPG. scenario.
3. Also we have the little bombshell that the player can control large ships BUT NOT FLY THEM! Well Egosoft have been trying to improve the remote control of capital ships by the player for a decade and failed abysmally. So if they have pulled this one off, this alone will make the game unrecognisable from what has gone before, probably by simplifying the surroundings. Then there is the disappearance of a couple of races, the introduction of a couple of new ones introduced combined remember with the fact we are operating in a different and smaller area of the X universe, if trade is still going on it cannot be compared to previous X games.
4. Then there is the sensible Q. of bigBANGtheory which I think has been totally ignored "Is 2011 release still realistic", suggested releases of info. have not happened. Is this game so different from previous X, that on its final release development they have hit a problem so big it is going to put the release back a year?

RANT OVER!
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spyder1911
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Post by spyder1911 »

BigBANGtheory wrote:Is Q4 2011 still a realistic window for release?
I have the same question. I wish they would release any additional news since it's been months of silence.

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