Current [POLL] Would you use Steam for Rebirth?

[Chris0132]

No, rebirth is coming to steam in three months, and will be sold for a long time after that. That is not now, it is not when people voted. Between the future and now we will have more information (not least because the game will be released in the time between now and the indefinite future) and the price will change and the DRM situation may or may not change, we'll have reviews and peer pressure and everything which may massively impact the sales of the game one way or another. Maybe the game will do horribly in the reviews, maybe it'll do exceptionally, maybe it will do as many people expect it to, who on earth knows? You can't accurately predict sales information at this point.

How might you do it accurately? Well, frankly, you probably can't. The amount of information you'd need to gather is staggering, the amount of expertise on human psychology, marketing, whatever, you'd need to process that information accurately would be ruinously expensive. Not least you'd need access to the complete game so you could attempt to empirically compare it to successful games of the past and current market trends in what makes any game successful.

The practical (and possibly theoretical) impossibility of accurate modelling is why businesses fail. Especially videogame businesses because people make games that turn out other than how they thought they would. The industry is full of incredible surprise hits and massive failures. The reason things like that happen is because probably nobody on the earth knows really what's going to do well and what isn't, which is why indie studios can't get funding to make the games that turn out to reshape the entire gaming landscape, and big studios fund absolute wastes of programming which immediately drop off the radar and into obscurity.

Maybe in the future someone will come along and present the grand unified theory of videogame enjoyability, or maybe they won't. I don't have enough information at this point to predict the future.

[Ebany]

and the DRM situation may or may not change

Unfortunately X:Rebirth will be released exclusively on Steam, EgoSoft confirm it in one of their sticky's. They also note that (currently) they will only supply a No-Steam.exe if the game is no longer playable (for one reason or another) through Steam.

How might you do it accurately? Well, frankly, you probably can't.

Exactly right, but using the tools we currently have access to (polls and writing our ideas in threads) give us insight which we didn't have before. Personally I would prefer some insight rather than none, and that is the aim of this poll, it's not about segregating the fans of Steam but about investigating the Fans of X.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

My friend, that was an apology, not agreement

Actually, it was.

Then we agree on that, my apologies for misunderstanding your point.

Which was said in response to my comment about the futility of the running debate on the grounds of poor statistical data.

My point is; we will never have enough "samples" to satisfy some peoples, but you and I understand that the heart of statistics is not how many samples are enough, but that every sample improves accuracy.

True to a degree, but we can not make any sweeping deductions such as Egosoft will lose X% of their sales because of Steam or only retain Y% of their sales despite Steam because the sample space is uncontrolled and on the most part uncontrollable. It also does not take into account the potential percentage of sales gained because of Steam.

Statistics is a useful tool when applied properly but in matters such as these, this method of data gathering is not statistically useful. It really only serves the purpose of stimulating discussion in the community with the questionable statistics being more a curiosity than usable data.

Forum polls can only have statistical utility if the subject matter is sufficiently constrained so that the typical voting sample space covers a sufficient portion of the target audience. Sufficient portion meaning enough participants to make the probabilistic accuracy adequate (even my suggested minimum sample size of 5% is of questionable adequacy).

[Ebany]

Your correct. For example there are quite a few new people coming over after seen the advertisements on Steam. They're checking out the forums and getting a feel for the site. These newcomers obviously have no issues at all when using Steam so their votes will severely tip the scales.

Regardless, this poll is still accurate enough for to fulfil its duty. Any who feel it's not should mention ways to improve it or start another, a more refined and accurate poll.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Regardless, this poll is still accurate enough for to fulfil its duty.

Which is IYO?

[Ebany]

I'm unsure what IYO means

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

I'm unsure what IYO means

IYO = In Your Opinion

[Ebany]

Ah. Acronyms, can take years too learn them all, and once you do they get updated.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Regardless, this poll is still accurate enough for to fulfil its duty.

Which is IYO?

And the answer is???

[Slashman]

Just to be clear I know how to work around the idiosyncrasies of steam "offline mode". It's just absurd that we still have to do this after so many years and telling that steam won't even sticky the relevant info.

Even the hated ea origin it's simple as start client offline... and it works!

I think steam is great otherwise (aside from the drm). And no I don't think the deliberately engineered the flaws in the offline mode, just that they er ... on balance of pissing off their customers vs rigor of drm ... to not really give a **** about fixing it.

I totally agree that it is about time they fix it properly.

The thing is that Valve has a very odd working environment. People work on what they want to work on. That's why they will switch from game to game and sometimes seemingly forget that they should be making something that is long overdue. *cough*Half-Life 2*cough*

Or even make a sequel right after they released a game. *cough*Left4Dead1&2*cough*

It's entirely possible that the guy/team that fixed it a few months ago, decided to work on something else.

I don't get it, but apparently they have desks on wheels and that's the workplace culture.

But yeah...it is long past time they just got it done.

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

Instead of criticising the poll, why not attempt to contribute. If you really hate it that much, make your own, no-ones stopping you.

No thankyou, a quick check of the first two pages of the Rebirth forum will show there's been quite the glut of largely pointless polls just lately and I don't feel a particular need to add to that.

I can't guess at why you fail to understand that if a person votes "Maybe, if I can then get a DRM-Free copy from Egosoft." that means "no" because EgoSoft are not giving out DRM-Free versions to everyone who buys a Steam version.

And this is why it provides nothing of value. Of the 6 options that you have listed in your poll you consider FIVE of those options to be the equivalent of a "No" vote. What useful information do you hope to derive for yourself, Egosoft or anybody else when you purposefully stack the deck to get the "correct" answer that you want? Perhaps it's especially telling then that even with such a horrendously imbalanced and pre-biased set of poll options those that are ok with Rebirth as a Steamworks title are still massively represented compared to those against.

Steam is fine except that valve refuse (and it is intentional) to fix the offline mode issues.

For this reason I'd like to see a DRM free executable eventually.

Got some proof of that one? No? Quelle suprise..

Why would Valve intentionally refuse to fix an offline mode issue? What would be the point? If they didn't want people to be able to play offline then they wouldn't have coded the feature into the Steam client in the first place and would have just demanded you play always-on a la Ubisofts effort.

The Facts. Offline mode works fine for the vast majority of people. True, a few people have some issues with it not working quite right. News flash! That happens with all software. It doesn't make it a conspiracy.

[robalexhall]

What do you mean by "work"?

It's supposed to be that you can just turn on your computer without an internet connection and steam will go into offline mode whatever it was doing before. Simple as that.

Not that you need to know beforehand that you'll be offline or that steam shut down 'nicely'.

Since you bring them up. Even ubisoft have got their act together and can manage this now.

- Like I said I think aside from this steam is great - I don't think drm is 'the devil' (as long as it works) - most of the time most peoples internet is reliable so this isn't an issue - but the fact remains that steam offline mode sucks so ... it would be nice ... if ego let us have a drm free exe at some point ... that is all...

And I never said it was a "conspiracy" neglect is not a conspiracy just laziness + bad incentives.

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

It's supposed to be that you can just turn on your computer without an internet connection and steam will go into offline mode whatever it was doing before. Simple as that.

Yes, and for most people that's exactly what happens.

In order to drop into offline mode when it fails to detect a network connection Steam requires you to have your login credentials stored on that machine. It's the default behaviour of Steam to do exactly that and you need to physically go into the settings menu and check the "Do not save credentials" checkbox to tell it not to do so.

Does that mean it works for absolutely everyone? No, some people apparently still have some issues, but then with 40 million people using their software platform across a ludicrously varied array of hardware and software permutations you have to expect a few problems.

A small percentage of people having an issue with it tho does not equate to Valve "intentionally refusing" to fix the problem any more than continued tech support issues on the forums here indicate a willful negligence on the part of Egosoft to fix any hard to pinpoint in game bugs.

[Ebany]

Regardless, this poll is still accurate enough for to fulfil its duty.

Which is IYO?

And the answer is???

My bad, I thought the question was Rhetorical. For more info check my initial posting, but basically this;

The 2 year old poll was locked and many people had said no (25% or about 600+ people), so this one was designed both to compliment it and to allow us the chance to vote again. With X:Rebirth just around the corner I would imagine opinions (or the people voicing them) may have changed. By reading the 98 odd pages of the last thread I had identified what seems to be the main areas of contention and expanded the poll to allow for more options. This, I believe, is the heart of statistically gathering.

Except for a few persistent Steam fanatics who seem to feel my ultimate design is to segregate part of the fan base, mostly its worked well. If those people would only chose to contribute by commenting on how they voted and why instead of cleansing other peoples opinions in the holy steam furnaces of their religion, it would work even better

[A5PECT]

Except for a few persistent Steam fanatics who seem to feel my ultimate design is to segregate part of the fan base, mostly its worked well. If those people would only chose to contribute by commenting on how they voted and why instead of cleansing other peoples opinions in the holy steam furnaces of their religion, it would work even better

Nice rhetoric.

Beyond that, your point boils down to "everyone trying to argue in favor of Steam is an irrational fanatic." Which is same argument you've been repeating for the last few pages.

[Ebany]

Steam is fine except that valve refuse (and it is intentional) to fix the offline mode issues.

For this reason I'd like to see a DRM free executable eventually.

Why would Valve intentionally refuse to fix an offline mode issue?

Same reason you come to this thread and troll, because they like to be annoying while attempting to compel their narrow minded ideological orientations onto the rest of society through r******* opinions which vacillate like a drunken donkey. Unless your just hoping the nasty and incite-full remakes you make might bring a closure to this thread by administration?

If it makes you feel better, I'll link some of your posts to Steam admin so they can see your dedication to the cause ...... maybe you'll get rewarded for your devotion with a free copy of Rebith

[Ebany]

Except for a few persistent Steam fanatics who seem to feel my ultimate design is to segregate part of the fan base, mostly its worked well. If those people would only chose to contribute by commenting on how they voted and why instead of cleansing other peoples opinions in the holy steam furnaces of their religion, it would work even better

Nice rhetoric.

Beyond that, your point boils down to "everyone trying to argue in favor of Steam is an irrational fanatic." Which is same argument you've been repeating for the last few pages.

Thanks, thought that one up on the spot ....... kinda proud as I find English difficult

And it's true. I try not too say negative things but the amount of abuse I've seen some people get because they said "they didn't want to see Rebirth go exclusively with Steam" amazes me.

A person say they won't use Steam because of a flawed off-line mode, and someone cause them a liar or a fool. I have thousands of $$ in games with Steam yet I'm labelled as bias and Anti-Steam?!?

Unfortunately this level of negativity can only come from fanaticism, you see it when you mention something against Apple as well so it's not just Steam..

[Slashman]

Thanks, thought that one up on the spot ....... kinda proud as I find English difficult

And it's true. I try not too say negative things but the amount of abuse I've seen some people get because they said "they didn't want to see Rebirth go exclusively with Steam" amazes me.

A person say they won't use Steam because of a flawed off-line mode, and someone cause them a liar or a fool. I have thousands of $$ in games with Steam yet I'm labelled as bias and Anti-Steam?!?

Unfortunately this level of negativity can only come from fanaticism, you see it when you mention something against Apple as well so it's not just Steam..

If someone doesn't have an issue with something they are using and someone else does, it is highly unlikely that the person not having the issue is going to be convinced that the product in question is a bad or defective product unless they get some kind of definitive proof.

People post all sorts of things about all kinds of issues and blame the first thing that they can see. It is unlikely that Steam has no issues at all. It is a piece of software. It is just as unlikely that every single bug in it will ever be ironed out for 100% of its users(with that number being in the high millions, it is even more unlikely).

Even with all that said, I have personally seen and followed a number of complaints against Steam in several forums where the person blaming Steam was the one with the issue. Be it software or hardware. What I find is that people remember the guy's complaint, but rarely ever follow things through to the point where the problem finally gets tracked down.

I gave an example earlier of Steam appearing to corrupt my game files. There was nothing at that point that said otherwise. It turned out that my motherboard was faulty. I'm willing to bet that a large number of people who find out that the problem was on their end, never come back and say that it was.

Even with all that, the average person/user is not going to get up in arms or condemn something that works perfectly fine for them. Few people who use something without major issues are going to bother looking on forums or surf the web for problems related to that product. Fewer still are going to care that some people may have issues with it (philosophical or otherwise). That's the reality of humanity.

Steam is a highly successful platform. None of the polls so far here have demonstrated that Egosoft should be financially concerned by being Steam exclusive. No game developer or publisher(whether large or small or indie) has ever indicated that Steam was a detriment to their sales or their community to my knowledge.

What more evidence are you hoping to gain from this poll?

[Ebany]

Thanks, thought that one up on the spot ....... kinda proud as I find English difficult

And it's true. I try not too say negative things but the amount of abuse I've seen some people get because they said "they didn't want to see Rebirth go exclusively with Steam" amazes me.

A person say they won't use Steam because of a flawed off-line mode, and someone cause them a liar or a fool. I have thousands of $$ in games with Steam yet I'm labelled as bias and Anti-Steam?!?

Unfortunately this level of negativity can only come from fanaticism, you see it when you mention something against Apple as well so it's not just Steam..

I'm willing to bet that a large number of people who find out that the problem was on their end, never come back and say that it was.

Very true. Personally I think there's nothing more rude than using some ones fix or advice and never returning to confirm it worked. Unfortunately the internet can make things so impersonal that, unless a person actively works against it, this tends to create higher levels of rudeness people, it can amplify the selfish part in all of us.

Steam is a highly successful platform.

So was;
Lehman Bros (Worth over 600 Billion at time of Bankruptcy)
*Delphi
*General Motors
*Enron
*Washington Mutual (worth over 300 billion before bankruptcy)
*The list goes on and on.

None of the polls so far here have demonstrated that Egosoft should be financially concerned by being Steam exclusive.

Firstly, your looking at polls all wrong.
Secondly, if we are using polls to help evaluate the "Steam Exclusive" decision, then they should be worried. If you can't see this then nothing will convince you ..... though study some of the stories in the companies listed above, it's insightful, sad, and funny all at the same time.

No game developer or publisher(whether large or small or indie) has ever indicated that Steam was a detriment to their sales or their community to my knowledge.

Steam Exclusive. Using Steam to market a product makes excellent business sense. Using Steam exclusively does not. Show me a publisher who sold titles without Steam before going Steam Exclusive, and show me where they say it's improved their sales figures.

What more evidence are you hoping to gain from this poll?

What evidence has this poll produced? This I feel is a question we should ask ourselves. According to some people this poll is worthless, most people would laugh and move on so then why did they feel the need to stay and vote if they felt that way?

What more do I want? I want votes! I want reasons for the votes like the following exceptional examples;

heck yes, love steam, and it's the only way I could get Rebirth.

Certainly. Steam always makes me throw money at them during summer and holiday sales.

Why of course. Steam provided my ailing mother with new dentures, and it neutered the neighbors cat. Can't argue with that!

Would not use steam at any cost,the old one

this poll actually has options on it! not half ass if you like steam ill just about put up with it positive option.

I will buy a copy but not from steam, I refuse to support that company in any shape or form.

I like Steam a lot so I don't have any problems whatsoever with buying the game on Steam or any other site will the Steamworks version. All that matters is where I can get the best deal.

I voted alternative provider, but that's not a maybe, I will buy it at gamersgate or, if available, a boxed edition (even if it's a steam install).

Er yp guys, finally soon it will be all over as the game comes out but may not be around to play, so its exclusive steam which means exclusive for me to stay away seeya

I will be getting rebirth, as soon as i can i am pre-ordering it on steam. I just need to hope my system can run it well enough

Feel sorry for people who miss out on great games because of steam. Their ignorance is only making them miss out.

I don't love steam, but it allowed me to play games without the need to pirate them and that says it all.

I would really like to buy the game but i prefer not to use Steam. I do have some games on Steam because i don't have a choice. And that's what it is about choice. Developers should be giving gamers options and not forcing people into to using Steam. If i do buy a game that requires Steam i will wait till the price is heavily reduced i will never buy it at full price.

Personally, I have had no issues with Steam in the past couple of years I have been actively using it again. Got my Steam account several years ago when it first came out and at the time I hated it.
.........
There are some who have issues with Steam (and similar services) for varying reasons, some rational and some not. However, where X-Rebirth is concerned it is most likely going to be a case of having to take the Steam medicine if you want your X-Rebirth sugar lump.

Love picking up games on steam, and especially like that egosoft seem to support nosteam.exe's later in the patch cycle

If it wasn't for steam selling X3: Reunion for $20 back in 2007 I would've never even discovered the series. The workshop is going to be a huge hit with the modding crew here.

*One of my personal favourites.*

Nope. I refuse to have my gaming controlled by a third party. If I'm buying a game developed by Egosoft, I will not allow a third party like Steam to determine when and where I can load and play it. And then there's the fact that I can't give away or sell any of my games if I wish. I refuse to pay 'rent' for my games. The nail in the coffin is their ability to arbitrarily lock and delete my account on any pretext and I have no recourse. Even the slim possibility of losing hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of games is just too high a price to pay, IMO. To me, Steam is the epitome of a dictatorial overlord.

If Steam changes these policies and becomes more customer friendly in the future, I'll reconsider my stance. But for now, I guess I'm just out of luck.

I know choice is play or not to play And I don't think Ego is giving us choice to play game without using Stem ..... Unless we ......

i think i will even pre-order if it will be available on steam, and i hope steam haters will miss this great game /well thats just a joke, there should be an other way to get it, but hating steam is silly, the only one DRM I dont mind on my PC/

I'll leave it there before I fill too much space, but when you ask "what do I hope to achieve by this poll?", I say "more of these!"

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

Same reason you come to this thread and troll, because they like to be annoying while attempting to compel their narrow minded ideological orientations onto the rest of society through r******* opinions which vacillate like a drunken donkey. Unless your just hoping the nasty and incite-full remakes you make might bring a closure to this thread by administration?

If it makes you feel better, I'll link some of your posts to Steam admin so they can see your dedication to the cause ...... maybe you'll get rewarded for your devotion with a free copy of Rebith

Wow, that's quite the delusional paranoia you've got going there. Do you also believe that Bernd sits in the Egosoft office eating pizza, twirling his super-villainesque moustache, stroking a cat and laughing at all the forum posts over the years about the slightly dodgy at times autopilot? I mean clearly Egosoft could choose to fix the autopilot, they're just "intentionally refusing" aren't they because Bernd likes to troll us all.

If you could have a word with the Steam admins and get us a free copy tho that would be grand!

Steam Exclusive. Using Steam to market a product makes excellent business sense. Using Steam exclusively does not. Show me a publisher who sold titles without Steam before going Steam Exclusive, and show me where they say it's improved their sales figures

Show us a publisher who decided to use Steam, show us where they say the decision turned out to be disastrous for their sales figures. I'm not greedy, I'll settle for just one example.