Round 4 of Would you use Steam for Rebirth thread

[Deleted User]

I personally think that once a game reaches a certain age and sales have dwindled far enough below a certain point, then the Steamworks requirement probably won't matter. If you're done patching a game and on to the next one, then you may have no more use for the more tied-in Steamworks features. At that point, patching it out is a one-time thing and you never look back at the game again.

A steamworks requirement will ALWAYS matter. That's the whole point. You can forget about removal of DRM after one year with steamworks. It is too stacked in publishers favour to ever let you go. Once you have a steam account, there is no way out other than rescinding your account and therefore your license(s).

As for AP, that was not technically an update to TC, rather it was the third step of Ego/DS foray into steam. The first being the ability to tie a retail copy to steam (free), the second being the new sector available only through steam (free), the third being fully fledged chargeable DLC, available only through steam (steam now a requirement even via retail). Under certain conditions, namely that you were a former loyal retail customer you could get this for free.

See a trend?

Sounds like a lot of free stuff being used to entice you to steamworks. Yes Ego/DS gain from it. Ever questioned what you, the paying customer, gain from it?

All users, steam inclined or not, should ask themselves straight questions:-

what did I get from Ego/DS prior to a steamworks requirement?

and

just how are my rights different if I sign up to a third party account that controls my license?

[angrytigerp]

Big post directed at Slashman

I lied, this is my last post. I invite you to view my second-to-last post, though:

People who 'support' Steam (use it) and those who are against it (intentionally don't use it) are pretty much set in their opinions, and I think we can agree to disagree.

I think we've pretty much settled all there is to both pro- and anti-Steam arguments, so I think the subject is best left in the dust. Both sides feel the need to keep repeating themselves, which only serves to reignite a discussion settled dozens of pages ago in the old thread.

Exactly what are you trying to do, Fox? You aren't going to change Slashman's mind, you weren't able to a few days ago so you won't be able to now, so why do you feel the need to keep trying to argue?

It's over, just agree to disagree. You're not saying anything that wasn't said weeks ago. We all just got reprimanded by the mods to not do this, and yet here you are trying to stir the pot again.

[Jumee]

I agree with pretty much everything Angrytigerp has said in the last two posts, there is no reason to continue this, especially since it is becoming more and more about claims/assumptions and less about facts.

At the end of the day the only thing that matters is your personal preference and what you personally consider to be "too much" (whether it is DRM, account binding, general policy of the company and etc)

[Slashman]

]A steamworks requirement will ALWAYS matter. That's the whole point. You can forget about removal of DRM after one year with steamworks. It is too stacked in publishers favour to ever let you go. Once you have a steam account, there is no way out other than rescinding your account and therefore your license(s).

What does that have to do with patching out the requirement to use Steam to run the game? I don't think they'll remove the requirement for Steam to install the game(because then they'd need to create a separate installer). But I wouldn't discount a steam-free exe to run the game without Steam being up.

Also, I went on to point out that the whole thing depends on the reason they removed previous DRMs used in the first place. Was it that Egosoft were completely against any form of them? Or was it more about them removing the annoyance of popping a disc in every time you wanted to play and getting rid of limited activations?

It could be that Steam kind of puts them where they were aiming since you don't need to have a disc in, and there are no limited activations with Steam.

See a trend?

Sounds like a lot of free stuff being used to entice you to steamworks. Yes Ego/DS gain from it. Ever questioned what you, the paying customer, gain from it?

A game I want to play? I dunno. Do I have to gain something of equal or greater measure from every move a developer makes if they gain from it? If I can run the game I want to play with no issues, why do I need something else just because they've changed to Steamworks?

What we should be getting is a decent game that runs well and has little to no bugs(well that's wishful thinking judging from Egosoft's past games).

I do happen to use several of the features that Steam has and so I suppose if they opt to use more of the beneficial features that Steamworks offers, I'll get to take advantage of some of those.

In the end, though, I basically just want a good game that runs well. Whether it is through Steam, Impulse or GOG is irrelevant as long as I don't need to be online to run it or have a continuous connection to keep it running.

[Wanted Bob]

To directly answer the poll question and to avoid arguing with anyone, I will just say that I have pretty much never had a problem with using Steam, despite adopting it in its infancy. For me, updating games has been really easy and convenient with Steam, and I could totally see X Rebirth taking advantage of the Steam Workshop.

In short, I would definitely use it for both activation and updating

[bluenog143]

To directly answer the poll question and to avoid arguing with anyone, I will just say that I have pretty much never had a problem with using Steam, despite adopting it in its infancy. For me, updating games has been really easy and convenient with Steam, and I could totally see X Rebirth taking advantage of the Steam Workshop.

In short, I would definitely use it for both activation and updating

Same here.

[Gavrushka]

To directly answer the poll question and to avoid arguing with anyone, I will just say that I have pretty much never had a problem with using Steam, despite adopting it in its infancy. For me, updating games has been really easy and convenient with Steam, and I could totally see X Rebirth taking advantage of the Steam Workshop.

In short, I would definitely use it for both activation and updating

Same here.

Likewise, and I promise not to be offended by anyone that thinks differently.

[the old one]

Thinking about the freebees egosoft are giving away ie AP free if you have the superbox and the no steam exe,are they trying to get people to use steam, i would have to say yes.THE people that use steam no problems for egosoft,but more importantly are the people who have bought the disc version and downloaded the no steam exe i would like to no what percentage have done that.AP is not a full game but an add on or a really good mod.But rebirth is a full game and from what little we no more complex than any so far which with egsofts record will require more than a few downloads, large ones at that.AP comes comlete no patches required download the exe no more steam requirements,but rebirth will required steam at all times so i beleive no exe to patch out steam ,so how many that have the disc version buy rebith ??,the old one

[strude]

Thinking about the freebees egosoft are giving away ie AP free if you have the superbox and the no steam exe,are they trying to get people to use steam, i would have to say yes.

Back in the first thread I think I put forward my theory on this. I think ES are using AP just to see what the response is in regards to Steam. They can get figures on :-

• By releasing on Steam, they can get an estimate on how many people will buy regardless of Steam
• By releasing the Steam required box, they can get an estimate of how many people don't consider Steam as a barrier to purchase as long as there isn't a big download
• By releasing the no Steam executable, they can get an estimate of how many people don't want to use Steam, on the assumption that people will play if they don't have to have Steam installed after the game is installed.
• By releasing a patch and not updating the no Steam executable, they can get an estimate of how many people will choose to (albeit reluctantly maybe) use Steam who originally wouldn't

So I expect there will be a patch for AP reasonably soon, without a corresponding update to the no Steam executable. Egosoft will see how many players are on Steam at the moment, and compare that with the number of players after the patch. If there is an increase in the number of users playing the game after the patch, I think it would be fair to assume that some of those who didn't want to use Steam at all (and therefore have been using the no Steam executable) will have been swayed to use it to obtain the patch, which would be otherwise unavailable to them.

On a side note, I noticed the entire X series (X Superbox) is available at 50% off on Steam today. Another ploy to get people signed up to Steam? Maybe, but who knows for sure really?

[David Howland]

I will go along with all that, the old one!
I must apologise to everyone involved in the thread Lock for any provocation my post may have contributed! My last post was, as the first paragraph made clear, an explanation in answer to a particular posters Q. Of course anyone on the forum may read a post and have the absolute right to reply in any way they feel appropriate!
Since I returned to the forums in February I have read this thread for news of any change to the planned Exclusive Steam policy, with no desire whatsoever to post on the subject. However when I read posts by innocent dears asking questions such as:-
1. Why do some people dislike DRM?
2. What is wrong with steam?
My heart softens, my resistance melts away and I have an irresistible urge to keep them FULLY informed. So there it is, my sordid little secret, I am just an old softy!
Next I must turn to ES. They have produced the best series of space sims since the demise of Elite, they provide this wonderful site and forums to support players and their games and in these days of impersonal internet service lead the way in showing most other game companies how to treat their clients. Why then did I have to be so harsh on them at the end of my last post? The clue is, the companies they were lumped together with. It does not matter how perfect they may have been in the past they must be judged on present policies. If they do their business exclusively through Steam and DS, their reputation must be tainted to some degree and the games must suffer slightly from the added complications. Remember ES, even the devil was a creation of God, he is a fallen Angel. Before he fell he was a being, more perfect than anything on the planet now!
Finally I must thank Vayde for trying to take the heat out of the debate before the lock, unfortunately he miss-typed some ones name but thanks for trying!

[ConCorDian]

Next I must turn to ES. They have produced the best series of space sims since the demise of Elite, they provide this wonderful site and forums to support players and their games and in these days of impersonal internet service lead the way in showing most other game companies how to treat their clients. Why then did I have to be so harsh on them at the end of my last post? The clue is, the companies they were lumped together with. It does not matter how perfect they may have been in the past they must be judged on present policies. If they do their business exclusively through Steam and DS, their reputation must be tainted to some degree and the games must suffer slightly from the added complications. Remember ES, even the devil was a creation of God, he is a fallen Angel. Before he fell he was a being, more perfect than anything on the planet now!

okay i voiced my opinion way back when this started and saw where it was going and never continued... only one question David, and it is a question... and i suppose its to everyone who does like EGOSOFT but doesn't Steam.

Q: If you trust EGOSOFT to make great games, and do mostly what the fans favor... can you not trust them to make good here regadless of your personal bias'? they are trying steam to help them, from my understanding of it there is more profit in Steam retail than physical retail for a developer (but i could be wrong) but IF Steam was to screw you over (and i aint implying they will or wont) can you not trust EGOSOFT to fix the issue? i do!

[greypanther]

Round and round we go!
A theme tune for you guys!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fI7zm7RXHs

[thetack]

can i answer your question concordian

no i dont trust ego to make a great game they never have, what they make is a great framwork that the comunity modders hang a great game on, i havnt played any vanilla games once the xtended boys and apricotslice etc and others get to it and release their mods.
Egosoft have great ideas that fall short of working, they have poor plots boring repetertive missions and terrible economys in fact medioca games

what ego have done is let the boys (and girls) with no financial pressures turn it into great games and then and i think this is what makes them a great company not only allow, but assist in allowing us to mod their game too our desires.

that i am afraid is what i have against steam, i could be wrong and then in 12 months i will come here and apolagies i cant see how we are going to run modded games without stupid patch updates screwing that up.

sorry david i hope you didnt have a better answer thought out

[EmperorJon]

@thetack I've not had problems running heavily modified versions of TC on Steam.

[David Howland]

ConCorDian,
I would trust ES implicitly to fix problems in the game but my belief is the complexities I refer to are out of their hands, in the Steam system. ES does care about every X player or at least did until the Steam exclusive policy?
Steam however are too rich and big to care about the travails of a lone X player. Half the players that give up playing X through Steam do so because the off-line mode is unsatisfactory. This is for a very good reason, the steam malware is designed to maintain control of the games use and the PC it is played on. If you try and break the internet connection it will behave like a spoilt brat that has had its sweetie taken off it. Does Steam care if hundreds of X players give up on it? Of course not, they have millions of happy Steamers used to their system, some do not even realise Steam controls their PC while they play the games!
The obvious answer would be for ES to provide a Steam-free alternative, as they used to, we do do keep asking, without result.
Good for you EmperorJon!

[EmperorJon]

Except once again you're posting things which to you are "fact", but to others... well, just aren't. Steam doesn't "control" my PC like a piece of "malware". I can turn it on. I can turn it off. I have also personally never had any issues with offline mode, though it's perfectly possible I simply haven't had it offline for long enough for it to demand a reconnect before playing, as some people say it does.
Mainly, however, I must refer to...

Half the players that give up playing X through Steam do so because the off-line mode is unsatisfactory.

And you know this, how? It's all well and good claiming something, but in this case you firstly haven't backed up your claim, and secondly it's impossible to prove that it's a true claim. Have you taken a survey of every Steam X player ever?

[thetack]

do you have the xtc mod running emperor, because i know the 3.2 had the same cat,dat file numbers as xtc , though there was a work around posted on their forum

[Jumee]

do you have the xtc mod running emperor, because i know the 3.2 had the same cat,dat file numbers as xtc , though there was a work around posted on their forum

well the way steam updates AP is - it never creates a new cat/dat it just renews the old one (number 2), and to "fix" the problem with XTC all you need is probably to just rename cat/dats to higher number

and overall I run a heavily modded AP before that I ran a heavily modded TC (though admittedly never played XTC unfortunately) and never had any significant problems (except for sometimes having to raise cat/dat numbers) its the same for other games -> I modded Civ 5 almost immediatly and again 0 problems

so really - Steam in itself is no serious barrier to modding and there are games that got it right - Civ 5 and Skyrim being main ones

[EmperorJon]

I used to have XTC mod installed on my Steam, swapped it over to the non Steam one and made the Steam one vanilla when I wanted to get a few achievements. Had no issues though with XTC and with others before it. I would simply set it to not download automatically, then copy out the relevant files, alter them to what they need to be, let the update install the put it all back.

[strude]

that i am afraid is what i have against steam, i could be wrong and then in 12 months i will come here and apolagies i cant see how we are going to run modded games without stupid patch updates screwing that up.

The issue with patches stuffing up mods is related to the way ES implement mods, and how modders have worked around the limitations of the system to allow us to have a better game.

Any time a patch has come, the basic patch installation would often stuff up many mods. The problem isn't new to Steam installations. I agree though that Steam forcing the patch is a problem, and it would be great if there was some way where patches could be applied only when the user specifies. It can be done using offline mode, but that's truly a pain in the behind to manage, especially if you have multiple Steam games that you currently play.