X3: Terran Conflict - Update 2.0 is here! (UPDATED)

[Carlo the Curious]

Different games use drivers, etc. in different ways, as may different versions of the same game. Or even different situations in the same game.

[mpcribeiro]

Different games use drivers, etc. in different ways, as may different versions of the same game.

fair enough that is the same as saying different patches fixing old problems and creating new ones...

and this happens all the time on new software releases not just on EGO software... tested or not there are always pression for earlier release and never everything is tested.

some aknowledge here on both sites I believe.

Well if my quad box with all those drivers played well and isn't anymore then perhaps isn't much an hardware issue but a software issue won't you agree. if Is driver or not I cannot say and the game is not inteligent enough to tell the user (IT expert or not) that is not compatible with driver XYZ. So what are the specs? Well my quad covers the specs.

If I need to try X3TC v2 on my 4x 6 core 128Gb rig I would give a try... but I guess that isn't matter of more memory nor cpu... its a matter of code problems within the patch.

if EGO do care to explore the avenue to find out what isn't wrong then I'm all for it... otherwise I'll go to background until EGO developers find what a hell is happening so that me and all others reporting issues on the Technical forum have their "hardware" problems sorted.

[Carlo the Curious]

Did you actually try any of the suggestions posted in your tech support thread?

[mpcribeiro]

I did not reply to your post in particular (small/merchant start btw) but I did try one suggestion of increasing the VM from 4Gb to 5Gb and same effect... got frozzen while jumping from one sector to other after 30 minutes play.

If it was the case using either mods or scripts being used then you would be a case of some incompatibilities or a script doing something that shouldn't.

Now when is fresh install and playing vanila (which for me means no scripts/mods) and all the gliches that I found while playng (reported on that thread) left me question why I did bother wasting time reinstalling X3TC to then fully upgrade from 1.01 to v2 when I had it happly running on 1.4 without any issues.

[eladan]

Time and again it's been proven that there are very clearly a lot of software issues with the game. Yet whenever a new problem occurs, it's definitely not the game software at fault!

The only occasion when we will say that a particular problem cannot be caused by the game is when we absolutely know that a particular problem can in no possible way be caused by the game. Such cases are rare. Otherwise, which is the vast majority of cases, I think you'll find the language is that it's probably a system issue. This does not rule out the game being at fault, but clearly, if experience has shown time and time again that system issues are the most likely cause of a particular problem, then it only makes sense to look at the system first, to eliminate system issues as being the cause. Particularly so, when dev time is not an infinite resource to allow chasing every problem, the bulk of which turn out to be system issues.

[tim997]

Time and again it's been proven that there are very clearly a lot of software issues with the game. Yet whenever a new problem occurs, it's definitely not the game software at fault!

The only occasion when we will say that a particular problem cannot be caused by the game is when we absolutely know that a particular problem can in no possible way be caused by the game. Such cases are rare. Otherwise, which is the vast majority of cases, I think you'll find the language is that it's probably a system issue. This does not rule out the game being at fault, but clearly, if experience has shown time and time again that system issues are the most likely cause of a particular problem, then it only makes sense to look at the system first, to eliminate system issues as being the cause. Particularly so, when dev time is not an infinite resource to allow chasing every problem, the bulk of which turn out to be system issues.

Hey Eladan!

Riddle me this then.... Why is X3:TC the only game I both have and hear about with this many codec/driver/hardware/etc issues & incompatibilities? If the game was written to be more robust, then it wouldn't be tripped up by something as mundane as a 3rd party codec installed. None of my other games poop themselves if I have nero codecs installed or ffdshow. It's been known that these have been an issue for a long time. So rather than telling people not to use them when they encounter a problem, why not make the necessary changes to the game so that these codecs no longer trip the game up?!

So yes, you are right in that often removing 3rd party software, codecs and specific drivers fix certain issues with X3:TC. However, why not prevent these issues in the first place? It must be possible, since all the other games I have installed right now (24 of them - just counted) don't have as many issues combined as X3:TC does all on it's own!!

Now I know that it's impossible to predict every issue on every combination of hardware. Problems are going to crop up no matter how hard you try. It's the sheer number of issues and incompatibilities that amazes me! I've spent more time trying to get X3:TC to run on 2 different systems than I've spent troubleshooting any other game in at least the last couple of years!

So ultimately these "system issues" can probably, in many cases, still be attributed to badly written software. Just because removing X fixes a problem, doesn't mean X is actually the cause of the problem.

So there!

[eladan]

Riddle me this then.... Why is X3:TC the only game I both have and hear about with this many codec/driver/hardware/etc issues & incompatibilities? If the game was written to be more robust, then it wouldn't be tripped up by something as mundane as a 3rd party codec installed. None of my other games poop themselves if I have nero codecs installed or ffdshow.

Without knowing what other games you have installed, it's rather difficult to say. Even so, it would be comparing apples and oranges. Unless those games use exactly the same resources as the X games, there can't be any comparison.

What really is bad practice is writing workarounds for any system quirks that people may have. If your system has a problem, you should be expected to fix your system, rather than expecting that a bit of software will make allowances for a badly behaved system.

It's been known that these have been an issue for a long time. So rather than telling people not to use them when they encounter a problem, why not make the necessary changes to the game so that these codecs no longer trip the game up?!

Ok. Here is an explanation of what the actual issue is, in these cases.

The game is requesting that in game videos and sound be played using certain system codecs which are installed as standard on Windows (WMP.) What is actually happening is that certain badly behaved codecs decide that they will hijack any requests which are handled by those codecs, even when those codecs are specifically requested. Since different codecs handle things in different ways, and it's not feasible (maybe not possible?) to code to cover every possible way that different codecs might handle a request, when this happens is when you get odd things happening.

So yes, you are right in that often removing 3rd party software, codecs and specific drivers fix certain issues with X3:TC. However, why not prevent these issues in the first place? It must be possible, since all the other games I have installed right now (24 of them - just counted) don't have as many issues combined as X3:TC does all on it's own!!

Different games will use different resources. I'm sure that some of them will even create their own little ecosphere where they rely as little on system components as they possibly can in order to avoid such issues. However, doing so would obviously require a larger expenditure of developer time and effort than simply using system resources for their intended purpose. For a small developer such as Egosoft, that's not going to be an option.

Now I know that it's impossible to predict every issue on every combination of hardware. Problems are going to crop up no matter how hard you try. It's the sheer number of issues and incompatibilities that amazes me! I've spent more time trying to get X3:TC to run on 2 different systems than I've spent troubleshooting any other game in at least the last couple of years!

And I've spent zero time on configuring my own system for it. For me, Reunion and TC have simply worked.

I realise that it can be a hassle for people, and it's partly why I volunteer time to help with such issues. But knowing the issues, and avoiding situations which mess with your games such as keeping drivers up to date, patching your system in a timely fashion, and avoiding certain types of software goes a long way to avoiding any problems in the first place.

[Carlo the Curious]

Regarding codecs (from some tech support thread about sound issues):

Regarding where the cause of the issue lies, this is a well-rehearsed discussion. Other games can and do suffer from the problem if they use DirectShow as the underlying problem lies there. A lot of more recent games don't use DirectShow, partly because of this and partly because Microsoft have now set it as "deprecated". Unfortunately we don't have the option of re-writing the entire sound and video subsystem of the game engine to deal with the fact that Microsoft finally realised that what they had previously been telling everyone to use was in fact broken all along! The problem has become worse recently as codec writers appear to have been taking more and more desperate steps to ensure that their codecs get chosen, with some of them now masquerading as the standard Windows codecs so effectively that the game has no way of preventing them from being used.

[tim997]

Regarding codecs (from some tech support thread about sound issues):

Regarding where the cause of the issue lies, this is a well-rehearsed discussion. Other games can and do suffer from the problem if they use DirectShow as the underlying problem lies there. A lot of more recent games don't use DirectShow, partly because of this and partly because Microsoft have now set it as "deprecated". Unfortunately we don't have the option of re-writing the entire sound and video subsystem of the game engine to deal with the fact that Microsoft finally realised that what they had previously been telling everyone to use was in fact broken all along! The problem has become worse recently as codec writers appear to have been taking more and more desperate steps to ensure that their codecs get chosen, with some of them now masquerading as the standard Windows codecs so effectively that the game has no way of preventing them from being used.

DirectShow was deprecated and moved to the platform SDK in 2005. If it's the cause of so many problems, then I'm surprised Egosoft still chosen to use it 3-4 years later. Is basing your game on outdated technology an acceptable excuse for problems occuring with that game? I think not.

[eladan]

DirectShow was deprecated and moved to the platform SDK in 2005. If it's the cause of so many problems, then I'm surprised Egosoft still chosen to use it 3-4 years later. Is basing your game on outdated technology an acceptable excuse for problems occuring with that game? I think not.

Quiz: What game engine is TC based upon, and when was it written?

While X3:Reunion was released in 2005, the X3 engine would have been written well in advance of that announcement.

[tim997]

What really is bad practice is writing workarounds for any system quirks that people may have. If your system has a problem, you should be expected to fix your system, rather than expecting that a bit of software will make allowances for a badly behaved system.

Sure, but I'm not suggesting workarounds. I'm suggesting that the game is written poorly and uses system resources badly, producing issues where there need not be any.

Different games will use different resources. I'm sure that some of them will even create their own little ecosphere where they rely as little on system components as they possibly can in order to avoid such issues. However, doing so would obviously require a larger expenditure of developer time and effort than simply using system resources for their intended purpose. For a small developer such as Egosoft, that's not going to be an option.

Absolutely, and I'm not suggesting that that Egosoft should handle all system resources at the lowest level possible. By all means, use the resource management systems that are already provided. Plenty of games do this though. XP and it's SDKs and libraries are a mature tech. Plenty of games do this and run without all the "system issues" that X3:TC does.

Quiz: What game engine is TC based upon, and when was it written? Smile

While X3:Reunion was released in 2005, the X3 engine would have been written well in advance of that announcement.

I know, and you're really just making my point for me. X3:TC is the problem because it's an outdated engine using outdated technologies! The "system issues" that keep occurring are most likely due to the archaic engine being unable to mesh with modern systems. 4+ years in technological terms is a relative eon of time!


I guess some constructive criticism would be helpful at this point.... Update your game engine every couple of years!!

[eladan]

What really is bad practice is writing workarounds for any system quirks that people may have. If your system has a problem, you should be expected to fix your system, rather than expecting that a bit of software will make allowances for a badly behaved system.

Sure, but I'm not suggesting workarounds. I'm suggesting that the game is written poorly and uses system resources badly, producing issues where there need not be any.

How is the game poorly written if some other piece of software interferes with what it's trying to do?

X3:TC is the problem because it's an outdated engine using outdated technologies! The "system issues" that keep occurring are most likely due to the archaic engine being unable to mesh with modern systems. 4+ years in technological terms is a relative eon of time!


I guess some constructive criticism would be helpful at this point.... Update your game engine every couple of years!!

Certainly. I'd love that. I'm sure most people here would as well. Not to mention that Egosoft would want it. Unfortunately, it ignores the reality of the situation in that an engine rewrite is a major, expensive undertaking. There's a reason that many games reuse engines developed for previous games.

[softweir]

Large, profitable companies can do much more by way of rewriting critical game-engine code than small companies. Firms such as Bethesda Softworks use the same engine for a range of games, while parts of their engines (such as sound subsystems and graphics subsystems) can be used in racing games as well as RPG and FPS games. If they decide the sound subsystem needs rewriting they can justify it as it will make several future games work better. Valve has a smaller range of games, but all using one game engine and ENORMOUS income from any one game, and can justify any number of rewrites and experimentation on the basis of expected income.

Egosoft is tiny. They boasted a few years back about having acquired a new guy to write the new graphics engine that has been used in X3:Reunion and since. One guy to write an entire graphics engine? Almost unheard of these days.

I feel quite sure that to Egosoft love and hate their game engine as much as the less fortunate of us do, and that they weould dearly love to scrap it and build a new one with the benefit of hindsight gained while maintaining the existing one. Whether they will ever be able to do so is another matter. I hope they will. It would be nice to see an engine that can use more than one core, for instance!

[Sartorie]

One thing to keep in mind is that TC was originally started as an add-on to X3 ... it turned into a stand alone game later. Also I think ES would have liked to release a finished game but just got hit by the release date ...

I am still disappointed how the game was released and how much potential was wasted but I do not think it's fair to blame ES for that - it's just how things work.

[apatel7]

Does anyone know if the 2.1 release will be available for beta testing or will it just be released?

Not really worried about the history of how we ended up here but would like to get on and play the game and 2.1 supposedly fixes some problems that I am currently encountering like undocking my newly purchased Chakora from the Yaki shipyard...

[softweir]

One thing to keep in mind is that TC was originally started as an add-on to X3 ... it turned into a stand alone game later.

No, I think you are confusing Reunion and TC. Reunion was intended as a standalone expansion to X2, but the leap in graphics capability lead to it being sold as a new game. TC was always intended to be a standalone expansion, since, though the changes were significant, they didn't quite qualify for calling it a new game.

Egosoft don't do add-on expansions - X-Tension was a standalone expansion and Reunion was intended to be a standalone expansion. Instead, they do content-adding patches and bonus packs.

[Sartorie]

I think I recall reading it somewhere but I may as well be confused on that one

I also recall reading that X3 was developed and released under extreme time pressure and that was the reason they had to release that many patches for it quickly while Terran Conflict does not have that problem. So I may really have mixed it up.

[Nanook]

One thing to keep in mind is that TC was originally started as an add-on to X3 ... it turned into a stand alone game later.

No, I think you are confusing Reunion and TC. Reunion was intended as a standalone expansion to X2, .....

Close. It was actually X2 The Return that was going to be the expansion to X2 The Threat. But Egosoft had gotten far enough along in the development of a new engine that they decided, for various reasons, to cancel the expansion and create X3 Reunion instead.

[escouflanfer]

Does anyone know if the 2.1 release will be available for beta testing or will it just be released?

Not really worried about the history of how we ended up here but would like to get on and play the game and 2.1 supposedly fixes some problems that I am currently encountering like undocking my newly purchased Chakora from the Yaki shipyard...

As I wrote before in this thread with two posts, X3:TC with 2.0a could not be considered achieved. So a lot of players, not only me, would be happy to have clues about the content and date of the next patch.

Thanks.

Escouflanfer

[eladan]

We've been given hints as to the content (fix for performance issues encountered by some, new missions) and date ('hot on the heels' of 2.0.) You are unlikely to get anything more specific than that.