Can X2 The Threat go Multiplayer?

[softweir]

ignoring ALL the technical issues, there would still be problems. The economy doesn't work as is...

You're quite right. Major changes would be needed to enable a 24/7 persistent economy. (Incidentally I don't pretend there aren't enormous technical difficulties, and I would welcome input from anybody who has real, relevant experience - which I certainly don't have!)

To some extent the multiplayer aspect would improve things: with that many people fighting it out there will be a constant demand for new ships and weapons!

A nice way to model the economic black hole would be to create VERY demanding planets that produce one major ware-type: Heavy Elements. I believe that the rare-earth elements and trans-uranic elements would be extremely difficult to find in bulk in space, but geological processes sometimes concentrate these elements on planets making them much easier to find and exploit. Effectively planets would end up using these processed ores as cash to buy off-world food and micro-g fabricated technology - i.e. quantum tubes. If these heavy elements were added as a necessary resource for every technology fab, then that would help balance things.

Another element missing from the current economy is The Wages Bill. In Real Life factories frequently cost their owners far more to run than it does to buy materials for them. Even an automobile assembly plant which takes in highly finished components and assembles them using largely automated systems spends a very high proportion of its income on wages. Put this into the X economy and all of a sudden growth will be much less certain. In the VERY long term a dedicated mogul will be able to maintain a growth that will approach exponential, just so long as he keeps all his fabs operating at a high enough turnover and nobody takes out too many of his traders!

One other highly unrealistic element of X2 is the bottomless ore/silicon mine. There should be no such thing! I would suggest that mines should be reimplemented to have limited lifespans. Possibly LONG lives, but nevertheless limited. Then at the end of their life the mine gets decommissioned. Meanwhile new asteroids can be spawned randomly (at a very low rate) throughout the universe. Spawned asteroids could be set to be moving through the sector they appear in, so as to avoid a steady accumulation of space junk. If a lucky player finds an asteroid with a high yield and lifespan and manages to place a mine on it before it moves out of range then it gets frozen in place until worked out.

Alternatively, scrap the idea of mines and require that all mining should be mobile mining. More for players to do!

Short-life mines/mobile mining would help to reduce station clutter. Another limit would be the number of steroids - stations depend on asteroids. Sectors with few asteroids or low-yield asteroids generally have very few stations built in them in any case. If the software limits the number of asteroids that are spawned then this will put an automatic limit on the density of any one sector. A more powerful sector server could be set to produce more asteroids.

[Duriel_LOP]

if persistent lan and online servers could be created that would be good, anyone here good/ great at programming and network code? want to spend some time making X2 even greater? then join devnet and make this game better for all!

[frymaster]

I'd been astonished if X2 ever went multiplayer. It's designed from the ground up as a single player game. It's been said for a long time that there will be an online X-Universe game and it will probably reuse a lot of stuff from X2 (some of which was reused from X:BTF) and it might even use the same graphics engine but you CAN'T just "bolt on" a "multiplayer option" to a game if it's not designed for it. That goes for any game in existence, not just X2.

[Holywhippet]

One other highly unrealistic element of X2 is the bottomless ore/silicon mine. There should be no such thing! I would suggest that mines should be reimplemented to have limited lifespans. Possibly LONG lives, but nevertheless limited. Then at the end of their life the mine gets decommissioned. Meanwhile new asteroids can be spawned randomly (at a very low rate) throughout the universe. Spawned asteroids could be set to be moving through the sector they appear in, so as to avoid a steady accumulation of space junk. If a lucky player finds an asteroid with a high yield and lifespan and manages to place a mine on it before it moves out of range then it gets frozen in place until worked out.

This would require working the computer AI altogether since currently the AI never builds new factories. When it's mines run out it would need to build new ones. The random factor would be a problem since it could unbalance the way silicon/ore are made available to the market.

[Holywhippet]

I'd been astonished if X2 ever went multiplayer. It's designed from the ground up as a single player game. It's been said for a long time that there will be an online X-Universe game and it will probably reuse a lot of stuff from X2 (some of which was reused from X:BTF) and it might even use the same graphics engine but you CAN'T just "bolt on" a "multiplayer option" to a game if it's not designed for it. That goes for any game in existence, not just X2.

The main problem I see is the same problem that was present in Ultima Online. Stronger players could just go around crushing newbies with their M1 fleet. The current design simply isn't workable for competitive multiplayer.

[darkmaster]

Nonetheless UO is one of the most played MMORPG.
Egosoft could introduce some malus system for attacking newbies or use a sort of power comparison system to give rewards...

[lukethegordie]

I agree with the dude abt freelancer. that had its own ecomomey and over 60 sectors and it ran fine. not to mention mods that added loads more and it still ran fine.

i think someone people might just wanna play in the x universie between a few friends. and i think with a decent pc and bandwidth it shouldnt be a problem to host abt 6-8 players. i also think though that egosoft should make x-online so that those who want more of a real life feel to the universe can.

I know id buy both

[carran]

I suspect a decent sized multiplayer X2 game would be too large for any single machine. In the single player version, out of systems stuff isn't calculated 100%. In a multiplayer version you'd need to do calculations for every sector a player was in. You might be able to do it with a dedicated server but too many players would require too much power.

Only if you're thinking in terms of using MS OS like XP or 2000, the most scalable commercial systems are Unix based with >64 CPUs and blazingly fast disks, with federated systems (ie servers which hold a bundle of sectors each) linked wiht Gb backplanes I doubt server performance would be an issue.

The biggest problem is connectivity, but for those who have deep pockets, SDLS or channel bonded ADSL is available

[fchopin]

I am sure egosoft can produce an online X-Universe game; some things would have to be made different from X2 because it would not work online.

The X-Universe does not have to start with a lot of sectors, because new sectors can be added with new developments.
This way the X-Universe would be expanding and growing all the time.

[CBJ]

I agree with the dude abt freelancer. that had its own ecomomey and over 60 sectors and it ran fine. not to mention mods that added loads more and it still ran fine.

i think someone people might just wanna play in the x universie between a few friends. and i think with a decent pc and bandwidth it shouldnt be a problem to host abt 6-8 players. i also think though that egosoft should make x-online so that those who want more of a real life feel to the universe can.

As I understand it, Freelancer doesn't keep track of any objects outside the area you are in, and the economy is static. The two games simply cannot be compared from a workload point of view, and I'm afraid that your statement that it "shouldn't be a problem" to have a 6-8 player server is both groundless and quite probably wrong.

When there is an online X series game, it will take a lot of work to get right and, according to all the information we have so far, it will almost certainly be an MMOG.

[frymaster]

The main problem I see is the same problem that was present in Ultima Online. Stronger players could just go around crushing newbies with their M1 fleet. The current design simply isn't workable for competitive multiplayer.

exactly! in fact, the problem's worse:

as combat is other MMORPGs is calculated rather than actual, to get an evenly-matched battle between a player and AI is easy - just give the AI the same "combat level" or whatever you want to call it. In X2 the AI actually has to try and outfly the player, meaning the player's AI empire is a sitting duck to a hit-and-fade attack.

other MMORPGs are about accumulating personalised power - you, plus maybe some minions, your special abilities, your high-level rare equipment, all in one place. You log off, and you disappear, basically.

in X, it's all about your property - your ships and factories. factories shouldn't really disappear when you log off. with your ships you can be in more than one place at a time. bad, because spread out = vulnerable. bad, because spread out = can harass and dominate newbies in many places at once.

not saying it will be impossible, but it will rely VERY heavily on a robust, elegent reputation and faction system. A balance would need to be struck between omnicience and ignorance of player activities, and tolerance and rejection of the same. Currently an AI race knows whenever you do something bad, and pretty much lets you away with it. They would need to see less and do more.

the current script editor would need to be altered (so it didn't allow rule-breaking and bending, obviously) so it allowed very felxible high-level scripts for your minions, and preferably linked into the faction system so they could decide whether or not to help your allies.


and a faction system would need to be created that allowed things like player-administered factions, variable access control to faction AI ships (ie high-level faction players should be able to command faction defence ships) etc.

ideally the script control would allow access to external sources ie IRC, email, data files etc. to allow external programs to influence scripts (sending an alert to an IRC channel when your ships are attacked, linking to external decision-making programs and allowing external input, especially for player factions)

...etc etc etc....

all the above probles / ideas went straight from my head to the keys, didn't need to really think about them. Stuff like economy, number of sectors, creating of sectors, faction control of sectors etc. are other areas. I'm sure egosoft has thought of many more....

still, if it comes out as a subscription service it would be the first one I ever buy, I'm that keen

[lukethegordie]

i stand corrected

[Admiral S3]

Ya know I used to play a game called Earth and beyond, it held a ton of players per "Galaxy". (It was an EA game. they jsut closed it recently.) The only problem was you only had one ship and well... there was at most one station per sector, but litterally thousands of ships both AI, and player controlled.

Its biggest problem was the damned techs kept mucking around with it, adjusting stats and items making it worse constantly so most peeps stopped playing. (Which is why they closed it finally.)

I think in reality, For something like X2 to be a big hit though it would need some sort of Multi-server system Where say each main race and close by sectors are on a server, then using a tie in server you could seemlessly switch from one to the other. The tie in server would actually be the server your playing on. The other 4 would jsut control and store the info. This way you could have say multiple servers all sharing the same info and it would seriously cut down on lag.

You could leave these in operation almost continuously, with teh occasional reboot nessary only due to excessive use say once a month. In wich case it would only be a reboot, and not a redo of all the info. A basic general save routine could update the game a few times a day, thus ensuring any system failures would not kill everything the players worked for.

The other thing is you would pretty much have to allow clans, Guilds, alliances that sort of thing, as mutual defense against other players would be by and large demanded. Each new guild could make a new Sector, This new sector would have to be auto placed by the servers. Each of these created sectors would be exactly the same as the last one made, A few roids of various types, no stations, no defenses, just gates and roids. All members of the Guild would automatically be informed by thier computer that a new sector had been found.

Each new guild would basically be a new race, automatically set up with the parameters of who ever created the guild. IE if at the time they are allied to all races, and in good standing with all races then the guild and any member joining would automatically have that standing. If later that guild falls out of standing with a race, then all members of the guild would suffer the same outcasting.

Likewise they could trade info, parts accessories across from one to another. As well as to other races. A simple guild banking system could easily be installed. I believe there is a script out now which allows for loans to be made. A meager fee of say 2 or 3% of all income from all guild members could goto the giuld bank. Allowing Guild leaders to either buy defensive items, offensive items, or stations for the home sector. Or hell loaning it out to some new player tring to get started.

Additionally, 2 guilds could easily have wars, with some pretty real consequences. 1 giuld falls out of standing with another. Eventually the tensions grow and 1 giuld finds, the others home base. So at such and such a time on such and such a day, the other guild goes and whipes out the enemy fleets assets. Takes over the sector for thier own. It would be up to that 1st guild to find a way to take back thier home, or find a way to make it on thier own in regular race controlled space.

The only real problem I see, is you would have to beef up the computer AI's and make them build more ships. A single player over time can have a ton of ships, imagine how many a guild could have. A few billion dollars and the Boron have thier days numbered.

Anyways I noted someone mentioning a shard like idea some posts back. Seriously if you think about all the ships stations and other crap X2 now handles, adding a few players to one server would not make much of a difference.

[Admiral S3]

frymaster:

You would have to do away with the scripting abilities. The game would have to be stock, and only the server side version would have to be beefed up in terms of IA potential, and action.

This would allow the normal player to test and play the game at home still while having the option to join the X online universe.

The differences would obviously be no story line on the X online version. Just build, trade and fight your way to glory, with luck a few freinds would be there to assist you. Plus no scripting, a routine could be put into the server to randomly check for scripts that are not approved. IE not normally run, so that anyone somehow getting around the locked out script editor could be removed from the game.

If you tie in my idea, about the guilds. Or even if you leave it at a single player mode per say... the server based version with a beefed up AI, could do all that a player can do anyways. Asume for a moment you have 2 Sector traders 1 M6 and a handful of other fighter craft you have captured or bought. A halfway decent AI would automatically put all combat craft on patrol of known owner areas. IE you have those 2 Sector traders, the fighters and that lone M6, where ever they are the craft could identify that they are currently player controlled zones. Thier only action would be to defend fleet assests. Meaning not attack anything unless it makes the 1st move.

Once a craft has left a zone or been destroyed the AI would update the list of patrol pionts and stop the comabt craft from going there anymore. This way when you came back online 2 or 3 days later your sector traders and all of your combat craft would be in the same 2 sectors. The only expcetion would of course be, your command craft. (Last ship used, before logging.)

If you go with guilds, guild assests, would do the same. Once purchased act automomously and with out input on constant patrol of known guild members locations. With the exception of say those purchased with the intent to gaurd the home area. You of course would want a few of these, given my idea. (Not to mention a ton oh laser towers.)

Players could do the same by specifically placing a ship into a sector patrol routine. (IE attack all enemies) which would keep it from auto directing its self to other tasks.

SETA would be about the only thing that could not be used. As how do you accelerate one persons crafts and not everyone elses.

However in place of that I here there is an afterburner mod, that EGOsoft could just usurp and add to the game, maybe beef it up, so that its almost like a SETA on say 5X speed setting, but as a consequence uses race specific material based on what type of ship your driving. Such as the smallest item other then E-cells from the race that you bought your ship from.

Aside from a smarter AI, the scripting portion would not be overly complex. A simple if player xxxyyy logs off, then all M5/M4/M3/M2/M1/M6 not assigned as code attack all enemies, will initiate code sector patrol. (Not much of a scriptor so yeah I know thats not the code, but you get the idea.)

The worse parts are there are avalible AI's and General enhanced fleet commands avalible from other players and thier freinds now that would do much of what I am refering to.

[The_T]

i just had one of those oh. right. moments. There's an MMORPG by a small company called Three Rings called "puzzle pirates" (www.puzzlepirates.com) that's where my avatar is from. I don't play it anymore, lost interest, but it had an excellent overall structure, and a very well done economy. Being a pirate game, everybody was split up into different "crews", which crew you were with was up to you, but it meant you were able to play with the same folks all the time, which is one of the better aspects of MMOGs. The crews all had a certain command structure: the captain(the one who created the crew), senior officers, (generally the most devoted players), officers ( all round competent players), pirates (essentially newbs who had payed for a game subscription) and cabin people which are almost exclusively players who are just on the demo. Anybody was able to purchase a ship, but only officers and above could actually take them out of port and order them around, the other crew members performed the tasks (in the form of different puzzles) required to sail the ship. ie sailing etc. generally, by the time a player had amassed enough pieces of eight to purchase a vessel, they were very close to being promoted to officer by their crew, so that was seldom an issue.
Combat worked like this: if two ships engaged one another, they would manoever around and attempt to shoot eachother until one was satisfied that they had inflicted enough damage, and then they boarded the other ship and started a swordfight. damage from the sea battle was reflected in the tetris-like swordfight. the winning side would then take a percentage of the goods and pieces of eight on board the other ship.
That's the important part, something like that could be workable in an X2 online game. You don't lose anything to the person who destroyed you except a portion of the your onboard fright or onboard credits. you then respawn in the last base you visited. The "crew" concept could also work in X2, it would allow players of relatively little wealth to be able to access very powerful vessels, without any risk to the owner of those vessels. AND this would let the 'space empires' of the crews be continually monitered, if the crew grew sufficiently.
Lastly, all of the economy in Puzzle Pirates was carefully controlled by the developers. Raw goods, required to produce anything, spawned at predetermined rates, and were available at markets on far away islands to be purchased or forages, then transported by trade-inclined individuals. Lastly, there was a labor max. each players account could only provide so 24 hours of labor a day, and the shops needed labor to produce their goods, so in fact you could take a job. when i stopped playing, the shops were paying rather good wages. this keeps everything from getting out of hand. The economy, however, was completely dynamic, and controlled completely by supply and demand. Shop owners could make a bundle on whatever goods were in short supply. I know this all sounds rather strange, but if you have a couple of hours, check it out, they have a 10 day demo iirc. just start the game, get through the intro, and walk up to the nearest notice board when you hit the dock, apply to any of the crews offering jobs onboard one of thier ships. somebody will show ye the ropes.