"AI" Update

[BlackRain]

We are, but what does that have to do with it? The advice that people wanting to report AI issues need to provide detailed information still stands, otherwise we won't know whether the problem they are reporting is the same as, and/or has the same cause as, something that has been reported before.

Then learn to ask a smart question, it is Egosoft asking for a free help from the player.

You should have a good look at this guide:
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Your post here is quite insulting and really uncalled for.

[flywlyx]

This line of thought is not useful as pointing fingers does not solve problems.

Your relationship with egosoft is defined by terms and conditions which can be found on the site. That's entirety of things you can "expect". https://www.egosoft.com/terms_en.php

If you want a more formal discussion, let’s talk about contract law and the principle of good faith. As far as I know, consumer product laws in every country require manufacturers to honestly inform customers about a product’s functionality and known defects.

The world is not perfect, egosoft does not have infinite resources. So if you want anything to change the idea is to seek functional compromise. Provide data, see if that works. As I mentioned before, there's some indication of certain thing changed, like reorganization of tech support forum and I did see people act on my reports before. The number of issues on tracker is apparently quite large, and for example, setting up a test scenario for an AI glitch can easily take an hour or more vs few minutes when loading the save. That's a compromise. No, it doesn't guarantee things will get fixed, but that's better than finger pointing and it allows people to process your report faster.

At the end of the day, the game is what it is, and if you find its state unacceptable, you can move on and seek alternative products. "If they expect" is not useful and does not get things fixed. Yes, it can be frustrating when some things do not work, but as I said. We are not living in a perfect world, things are what they are and not what they could or "should" have been. Adapt, move on when your expectations aren't met. Or launch your own product. Or become company's investor.

That's how I see it.

If setting up a test scenario takes this long, they seriously need to improve their debugging tools. And if player save files are so crucial for their system to function, they should make the process easier instead of blaming players.

[flywlyx]

We are, but what does that have to do with it? The advice that people wanting to report AI issues need to provide detailed information still stands, otherwise we won't know whether the problem they are reporting is the same as, and/or has the same cause as, something that has been reported before.

Then learn to ask a smart question, it is Egosoft asking for a free help from the player.

You should have a good look at this guide:
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Your post here is quite insulting and really uncalled for.

I apologize if my words made you uncomfortable—I may have overreacted a bit. This is the first time I've been threatened by a developer that complaining would result in a bug not being fixed.

That said, the key point here is that Egosoft has a responsibility to provide proper information to help OP resolve both his issue and Egosoft’s own problem. As a representative of Egosoft, CBJ is obligated to explain the product's functionality and known defects. Repeating this kind of disclaimer is simply an attempt to dodge that responsibility.

[vvvvvvvv]

If you want a more formal discussion, let’s talk about contract law and

No. If you believe the law has been breached, bring it to the court. Otherwise it is gonna be yet another talk about hypotheticals and it will result in nothing happening.

If setting up a test scenario takes this long, they

Or you could take a few moments to save the game and post a ticket when you encounter a glitch.

Like I said. It is not a perfect world. Talking about "they should" does not fix the issue you're having. Uploading stuff increases chances of it being fixed.

[MKL81]

If setting up a test scenario takes this long, they seriously need to improve their debugging tools. And if player save files are so crucial for their system to function, they should make the process easier instead of blaming players.

Or you could take a few moments to save the game and post a ticket when you encounter a glitch.

Like I said. It is not a perfect world. Talking about "they should" does not fix the issue you're having. Uploading stuff increases chances of it being fixed.

As much as flywlyx might be overreacting a bit here - I agree with him to some extent. If providing an unmodified save file is so crucial, then Egosoft is effectively excluding a considerable part of playerbase from active participation in improving the product. I do not recall any other time where I had to report a bug for other game and was required to provide a save as mandatory step. This process for X4 is not working very effectively, at least that is my impression from the "outside".

With all that said, I'm really looking forward for 7.60 AI fixes.

[vvvvvvvv]

I do not recall any other time where I had to report a bug for other game and was required to provide a save as mandatory step.

In my experience, X4 is one of maybe 3 games I've encountered in my entire life where developers actually acted on something I reported. In all other titles reports go into trash bin.

Regarding "save". It is standard with non-linear games or complex worlds.

For example, this is from Beamdog:
> Do not report bugs if you have installed any mods or edited your saves
> 2. Attach a zipped save and begin with "1. Load the attached save."

Sounds familiar, I'm sure.

[MarStrMind]

You REALLY need to post an example with a save file for each problem you have into technical support problems. Yes it is annoying, no there's no way around it.

Let’s be honest—it’s Egosoft’s responsibility to provide a working game, not the players'.

Fact of the matter is software and games of all kinds got better because people report issues to the developer. Same goes for practically any product ever manufactured - they got better because people reported issues with products.

[Alan Phipps]

"If setting up a test scenario takes this long, they seriously need to improve their debugging tools."

Just to provide a bit of background from the X Rebirth alpha/beta testing experience: - Egosoft found that setting up test scenarios using 'cheats', scenario generation, and/or progress/relocation shortcuts sometimes gave quite different gameplay results and outcomes than in actual user gameplay. This is likely because the tools used cannot replicate the outcomes of all possible options and parameter combinations in use and, of course, the devs' on-system game version is constantly evolving.

These differences resulted in a number of confusions between bug reporters and devs, and also resulted in a lot of dev 'cannot replicate on our system' responses. Egosoft have learned from that experience and now request actual gameplay saves using the appropriate vanilla game version which Egosoft can call up for specific investigations.

[chew-ie]

You REALLY need to post an example with a save file for each problem you have into technical support problems. Yes it is annoying, no there's no way around it.

Let’s be honest—it’s Egosoft’s responsibility to provide a working game, not the players'.

Fact of the matter is software and games of all kinds got better because people report issues to the developer. Same goes for practically any product ever manufactured - they got better because people reported issues with products.

I've to underline that from a professional pov. Computer games (and other non-standard software for that matter) can't be treated like a physical "product" (e.g. a knife). Iterations are the state of the art of getting the best results in relation to available budgets (time, money).

As already discussed here handing the developers small, isolated and reproducible examples (best in form of a savegame) are the way to go here. Especially in the given context ("game AI") - lengthy videos ("showing everything which goes wrong"), generic lists with "finding" etc. won't help here. Somebody has to process that stuff. And if we are solely relying on Egosoft for that the needed time of only preparing all the different findings could very well tending to infinity. (^^)
I'd also like to point out yet another obvious thing [for professionals, at least]: while there are theoretical concepts on how to solve certain things the complexity (abstract measure for "time it takes to implement including QA") in games comes from the integration part. Example: knowing 3D pathfinding "stuff" is only half of it (if at all), transforming solutions into "X4 3D pathfinding" is the real work needed.

It's not always possible to explain that to all types customers - as seen here. What's important here is to accept that (from both "sides"). Otherwise we get yet another thread with dozens of pages about everything BUT the issues at hand.

tl;dr: games are customized, non-standard software and no "product"; collaboration between devs + users gives the (currently) best known result. At some point the external view isn't helpful and one needs deep insights into a project in order to be able to give realistic estimates (classics: "Should be easy to do", "I could do that in a fraction of time") - everybody who worked in software projects knows that btw. Because of that, keeping it civil is the best cause of action here.

[MarStrMind]

Computer games (and other non-standard software for that matter) can't be treated like a physical "product" (e.g. a knife).

Why not? While they are not physical, they are still products. Also from a professional and objective point of view, there is no difference at all.

EDIT: No Man's Sky is a product of Hello Games. Eve Online is a product of CCP Games. X4 (and the X-series) is a product of Egosoft. See where this is going?

[chew-ie]

Computer games (and other non-standard software for that matter) can't be treated like a physical "product" (e.g. a knife).

Why not? While they are not physical, they are still products. Also from a professional and objective point of view, there is no difference at all.

EDIT: No Man's Sky is a product of Hello Games. Eve Online is a product of CCP Games. X4 (and the X-series) is a product of Egosoft. See where this is going?

For one thing, it can be copied in a blink of an eye . But seriously - this thread is already derailed enough IMHO. We shouldn't add yet another meta discussion to it.

[flywlyx]

No. If you believe the law has been breached, bring it to the court. Otherwise it is gonna be yet another talk about hypotheticals and it will result in nothing happening.

There appears to be a misunderstanding. The idea that not going to court means no laws are being broken is incorrect. We are discussing civil law, and civil breaches are independent of criminal proceedings.

Or you could take a few moments to save the game and post a ticket when you encounter a glitch.

Like I said. It is not a perfect world. Talking about "they should" does not fix the issue you're having. Uploading stuff increases chances of it being fixed.

To help both the OP and Egosoft address this autopilot collision issue, could you please provide a save file that reliably reproduces the problem, if it's as easily made as you claimed?

Your reasoning suggests that Egosoft could improve their process for addressing these issues. Simply talking about "players should do" doesn't resolve the bugs they have.

[CBJ]

Despite several warnings, this has strayed far off topic and is going nowhere. Further attempts to discourage people from providing useful feedback will be considered trolling and treated accordingly.