Planet fall

[Alan Phipps]

I get that it can be done now to the extent shown in the YT video, but to me that harked back a lot to the X2/X3 days when some big (including non-plot) asteroids had twisty tunnels through them that you could fly through or hide in. However, there was no other real interaction with them apart from attacking or mining them as with other 'normal' big asteroids.

It's the necessary planetary variations, unique facilities and interactions that would take up all the dev time for assets that perhaps just a few players might use and see only once in a while (and others not at all) during their play-throughs.

I'm reminded that some of the unique POI/Landmark mining station models in X Rebirth were quite large and interesting to explore, and they tended to be introduced to the player through the plots.

[vvvvvvvv]

I get that it can be done now to the extent shown in the YT video, but to me that harked back a lot to the X2/X3 days when some big (including non-plot) asteroids had twisty tunnels through them that you could fly through or hide in.

One of those asteroids is still in x4. It appears during terran Yaki plot.

assets that perhaps just a few players might use and see only once in a while (and others not at all) during their play-throughs.

X4 already has a lot of features like that. for example, It is possible to spend hundreds of hours playing without ever meeting dal busta and triggering related plots. Or without doing any plots. Any of the voiced plots people worked hard to make and record. Actually MOST of the features in the game are like that, probably.

The planetary landing dev scope can be scaled down. Way down. To the level where it will be comparable to Hyperion ship or that "Hazing the Newbie" mission.

[NightIntruder]

If you limit the player from leaving the area, this is would essentially just be "space stations" on the ground. Should not be that hard to pull off.

Having a base on a planet surface seems to be rather (technically) easy to achieve**. It's theoretically possible to have even space legs on a planet, too. It just depends on possible geometrical limits imposed upon walkable surface and how it may hit performance if such surface is huge. I do know nothing about both, sadly. Having the whole planet surface land-able, on the other hand, is likely impossible with the current version of the X TECH 5 (point-to-point landing mechanics).
To sum up, what you want seems to be doable, you just need some dedicated modder(s) who would accept the challenge and have extremely effective 2D/3D workflow

It's the necessary planetary variations, unique facilities and interactions that would take up all the dev time for assets that perhaps just a few players might use and see only once in a while (and others not at all) during their play-throughs.

I agree. Landing on a planet would need to serve either the same purpose space stations do (overhelming task) solely for a different vibe of immersion. Or, it would have to serve plot or mission destination purposes as you pointed out. Modding community is perfectly sufficient to find out whether such "expansion" of the gameplay would be beneficial for a gameplay. I can only hope this thread will interest some of them

** I forgot about geometry collision. I don't know whether geometry collision of a whole planet, even a moon or a planetoid is possible within the XTECH5 and where the geo limits lay, they must be somewhere.
Egosoft, are any tech docs available for modders, please?

[Fahnenjoker]

X4 already has a lot of features like that. for example, It is possible to spend hundreds of hours playing without ever meeting dal buata and triggering related plots. Or without doing any plots. Any of the voiced plots people worked hard to make and record. Actually MOST of the features in the game are like that, probably.

Exactly, and these seemingly small things here and there can really enrich a game world/universe and make it feel lived in compared to an empty and liveless feeling sandbox.

Having a base on a planet surface seems to be rather (technically) easy to achieve.
[...]
To sum up, what you want seems to be doable, you just need some dedicated modder(s) who would accept the challenge and have extremely effective 2D/3D workflow
[...]
Modding community is perfectly sufficient to find out whether such "expansion" of the gameplay would be beneficial for a gameplay. I can only hope this thread will interest some of them

Are there any mods in that regard? I could not find anything on nexus.

[vvvvvvvv]

Are there any mods in that regard? I could not find anything on nexus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-QL_ErLjHU

Basically, in its simplest implementation, planet is a skybox. It was done this way in Omykron Lyrae in Rebirth.
You can LITERALLY just half bury 3m6s into ground and you have a spaceport. Because the game already uses magic forcefields that keep air in. Turn those off for extra believability.
Then it is possible to add "planetary landing" upgrade justifying how does the ship land here but explodes through power of magic next to airless asteroids.

Or if you make a huge mesh as planetary surface, you can just stuff it into map as wireframe and it'll just work. If it can render stations, it can render ground meshes.

There are ways and workarounds for anything. It is also very easy to come up with very convincing explanation why it is absolutely impossible to do something. Also pretty much for anything.

[NightIntruder]

Are there any mods in that regard? I could not find anything on nexus.

Not yet. At least, nothing that I am aware of X4-wise. That's why we're discussing it here, hoping to spark interest from modders who know how to do in detail what needs to be done. Not many of them out there As you can see, two people have done preliminary tests, zero of working mods published so far. It speaks for itself.

Or if you make a huge mesh as planetary surface, you can just stuff it into map as wireframe and it'll just work. If it can render stations, it can render ground meshes.

The more I analyze this problem the more I think it's not as simple as I presented it a moment ago. A 2x2km terrain patch that looks good from a kilometer has about 2 million tries. A 4x4km terrain would exceed the XTECH5 grid display mesh limit twice for a single model. On top of that it looks good from away, but up close? Mesh detail is a disaster. Add to that the collision model problem and how to calculate mlns of points on the fly by CPU. Terrain mesh isn't a simple geo boxes most of station module collision geometries are constructed from. Even the HA/LA issue could become a problem, because a small moon with a diameter of 200km would extend its geometric body beyond the HA bubble. Planetary landings could be a much more complex problem than I initially thought.

[vvvvvvvv]

The more I analyze this problem the more I think it's not as simple as I presented it a moment ago.

If you're analyzing with the intend of finding why it is difficult, that's wrong approach. As I said before, it is always possible to find a very good, thoughtful and solid and good sounding reason in order not to do something. But that will not get you anywhere useful.

The intent should be looking for a way to make it work while preserving interesting aspects. Games are hacks. Smoke and mirrors. Illusions. So if you run into "Oh, but this approach does not work", then don't use it. X4 already has planets in background and those have DYNAMICALLY changing landscapes. Like you can see rivers begin to flow when ocean rise.

So, if "but it is too many triangles", split it into chunks. Make it a skybox. And so on. Find a workaround.

Analyzing it also will not get you anywhere useful either. The right idea is IMPLEMENTING it. But if you aren't a dev making it work is not your job.

With planetary landings the main issue, for the record, is floating point error, which X4 has already solved. It is possible to approach planets, though it doesn't look that great. There's closeup planetary surface in eighteen billion. Previous games had massive bodies, like those cracked planetoids in Rebirth, Aldrin asteroid in X3 (which I do not remember) and so on. There are also camera stacking tricks. Or there is xenon hub. There are ways to make it happen, the only question is whether someone will put hours into it or not. There isn't much to "analyze" here.

--edit--

Basically, there isn't really anything to invesitgate because by now planetfall is a solved problem which was approached in many different ways by other games. So whoever wants planetfall, can just pick existing approaches.

The concern of development time, expressed by few people, is, of course, well-meaning, but in order to continue to exist the game would need to keep improving and ideally attract new buyrs. Everything costs development time. And to properly estimate dev time, you'd need source code access and experience in this particular team.

[NightIntruder]

Basically, there isn't really anything to invesitgate because by now planetfall is a solved problem which was approached in many different ways by other games. So whoever wants planetfall, can just pick existing approaches.

Oh... I would be delighted to try! Could you point me out, which part of procedural generation of barren planets from Cobra Engine I should pick to implement through a modding into XTECH5 code, and where?

Man, this is the right time to stop discussing the topic, I believe. I've been modding a few games for over 13 years. What I really need is the knowledge about the XTECH5 game engine and it's limitations. Wasting my time in trying to implement things that'll never work due to an engine limitations isn't a fun. Been there, done that. I don't need a pseudo-psychological babbling about self-induced inabilities of doing something, either. I have motivation and will to mod, just the knowledge about it is scarce, partitioned or outdated. So, how about that - you start modding X4 and we'll start talking on real, OK? I need supporters with certain both skill and mind sets

[vvvvvvvv]

Oh... I would be delighted to try! Could you point me out, which part of procedural generation of barren planets from Cobra Engine I should pick to implement through a modding into XTECH5 code, and where?

Here's a serious answer.

A reasonable idea in this scenario is not to wish for features that do not exist, but abuse existing ones. Adaptive terrain is something you do not have and it requires either engine level hack to implement, or you'll have to do some fairly convoluted hijacking of Vulkan rendering via Microsoft Detours.

Spoiler

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For example, while modding Skyrim VR some user was able to implement glyphs you draw with your finger within skyrim, and that was done by a separate process where the glyph was being rendered in unity application then transferred back to skyrim process via interprocess communication. Full adaptive terrain in X4 via a mod would be a hack of comparable complexity. Doable, but not worth it, because of the hassle. It'll also break with every update.

A more reasonable approach in this scenario is to abuse asteroid renderer instead. See the landscape in Eighteen Billion. That's a base. Make chunks of the planet of increased complexity and lod quality, kitbash them and assemble a landable chunk of a planet by making them overlap. The planet is composed of parts which you will never approach which can be distant, and parts where you can fly close, which will be composed out of pieces of increased quality, then there will be a focal point where you land. The focal point would be a station module with new geometry and walkmesh. It should also be possible to make something like a cliff where you can walk, abusing existing tech. Now, having a vehicle would not be easily doable.

And there you'll have a planetfall. Smoke and mirror ugly solution which does its job and looks good enough.

I don't need a pseudo-psychological babbling about self-induced

I'm a programmer with plenty of 3d programming expeience. In this scenario instead of knowledge of limitations, you need to abuse what the engine can already do and assume it can do nothing else.

Take a look at the craters in Eighteen Billion, at asteroid Models, at rebirth Asteroid Stations and Station module rip it to pieces take a look at the video I linked before. Study exploded moon in teladi sectors in rebirht, as engines are closely related. Study Omycron Lyrae sectors in Rebirth. That's your planet constructor and that's your tools. Abuse them. Use smoke and mirrors. No, it is not guaranteed to work, but without engine source and cooperation from the devs, that's the angle you can realistically approach it from.

If you want "adaptive terrain" then it won't exist unless you're comfortable with detours, C++ coding and can program vulkan. And that will be a level of efforts where it'll be a good idea to consider makin your own game instead.

It is not about psychology at all. That's roughly how people mod vehicles into fallout new vegas. Through abuse of existing mechanics.

[NightIntruder]

Here's a serious answer. A reasonable idea in this scenario is not to wish for features that do not exist, but abuse existing ones. Adaptive terrain is something you do not have and it requires either engine level hack to implement, or you'll have to do some fairly convoluted hijacking of Vulkan rendering via Microsoft Detours.

My apology for making fun of you, but... oh well... You were the one suggesting use of existing approaches known from other games. Suggested approach with engine-level hacking is beyond my reach due to my 2D/3D-oriented skills. Thus, from the get go I was focused primarily on the tech X4 engine can provide, which obviously could've led to my misunderstanding of your point. By "through modding" I really meant "typical" modding approach people do in X4

you don't need knowledge of limitations, you need to abuse what the engine can already do

Knowing what engine can or cannot do is knowing its limitations, no? I must know if it can render 50 mlns tris in one scene, how its visual LOD system works, and how many chunks of planet collision geometry the engine can handle at once. I do need to know whether specific type of image animation is supported if I'd like to have weather effects (raining, snowing). All of that dictates what tools and approaches you take in your modding venture. Thus, you need to know lots of things about a game engine before you even start creating your first poly in Blender, coz perhaps said engine doesn't work with quads, only triangles are accepted. (I know you can easily convert them, just the illustration of logic behind).

Make chunks of the planet of increased complexity and lod quality, kitbash them and assemble a landable chunk of a planet by making them overlap. The planet is composed of parts which you will never approach which can be distant, and parts where you can fly close, which will be composed out of pieces of increased quality, then there will be a focal point where you land.

Yeah, this is serious discussion, right here. It strikes my preliminary goal of creating planetary terrain accessible in any direction, even after a long flight. But... to be fair, focus of ordinary player at exploration ends after a several minutes. A planet with limited explorability would do just fine for majority of players, I guess. Especially, if said planet is barren where's not much to see beside a couple of POIs. Initially, I was looking at the problem from slightly different perspective, ie. how to create rocky/icy barren planet, with immersion of breathable atmosphere, clouds, etc. The fact, a player knows how it looks from RL meant for me that I shall avoid any chances of low quality for the sake of immersion. But, your suggestion actually brought some fresh thoughts to my view on the matter. There're still matters to resolve but I appreciate your efforts in explaining your perspective. Thank you!

[thedavid]

It is interesting to imagine a game that is "occupy Mars" on the planet surface and "flight of nova" for atmospheric flight to get to space. Once in space we can have the station building mechanic from X4. Some lower tier ships use limited fuel and Newtonian mechanics but better ships have basically unlimited fuel and such advanced flight computers that we get X4 style flight but only in space.

[vvvvvvvv]

My apology for making fun of you, but... oh well... You were the one suggesting use of existing approaches known from other games.

That was for developers. They can adapt a new tech. If you are tryin to make a mod, you'll be restricted to engine capabilities. Unless you want to dive into extreme hacking, like in that SkyrimVR mod.

Knowing what engine can or cannot do is knowing its limitations, no? I must know if it can render 50 mlns tris in one scene, how its visual LOD system works,

Egosoft download page has examples made in blender:
https://www.egosoft.com/download/x4/bonus_en.php

Which show guns, destroyers, and lods. In the examples, egosoft uses 3 lods per object (includes base mesh), which are handcrafted, and one more "destroyed" mesh with no lods.

Generally... video game engines have similar capabilities in many things with occasional standout unique feature. In case of x4:
* You'll be probably able to make basic rain, because it has particle system. Unless you want something like rain colliding with ground. Worst case scenario you can reuse wet effect from windfall.
* Skybox planet should achievable, because it was done before in Rebirth or that demo video.
* Planetoid/Asteroid stations should be achievable, because it was done in rebirth.
* Small planetoids should be achievable, because it was done in rebirth, x3 had aldrin and in x4 there are planetary bodies, though you're not allowed to approach them.

* Complex 2d animation might be a problem, as the game may lack support for it beyond particles. In many cases might be possible to script them.
* Making a new race/species could be difficult.
* Making a vehicle that drives on ground is likely impossible without developer support.
* Quads are likely not a concern, normal exporter these days just turns them into tris and everybody uses quads unless working with photogrammetry polygon soup.

The first quick test would be making a custom module with custom walkable surface OR custom interior. If you can do that, then at least asteroid station should be possible, with walkable area.

A reasonable target for current X4 is "Point of INterest close to a planet" or "Asteroid Station". Basically, similar to Omycron Lyrae or Teladi Outpost from Rebirth. If you haven't played Rebirth, I'd recommend to check youtube. For flying AROUND a planet, ship engines are too slow. The maximum speed I could personally reach is 25 km/s. And circumference of Earth is 40k kilometers. With 25 km/s it'll take at least half an hour to make a full loop around a planet. Or, for example, Earth to Moon flight at this speed is over 4 hours.

That's the rough idea of it.

[NightIntruder]

Egosoft download page has examples made in blender:

Just to explain to you the background of my presence in this thread: I downloaded samples and installed tools, read all Ego wiki tutorials, looked up multiple vanilla models and mods within the scope of my interest like special asteroids, ships, weapon, props etc. I've been here for 8 months, looking for modding knowledge everywhere, asking questions and asking for help. Which, by the way, I got massive amount from brilliant minds of the modding community. The problem is, my main modding focus are bases, outposts, hideouts for small, slow, cameral type of RP gameplay. Why is it a problem? Not much of interest about this type of gameplay around. Thus very, very few modders touched the area and there're neither samples nor tutorials about station or plot/mission creation. I've already made a working in game asteroid base and modelled 10 more outposts/bases. The problem is, part of my bases don't look right on asteroids. They clearly have moon/planetary design, look and feel. Hence, I expanded my focus from asteroids to moons and planets. Thus, asteroid-only facilities, which I may do, aren't my only focus anymore.

https://imgur.com/a/R8EOmtU

A reasonable target for current X4 is "Point of INterest close to a planet" or "Asteroid Station". Basically, similar to Omycron Lyrae or Teladi Outpost from Rebirth. If you haven't played Rebirth, I'd recommend to check youtube. For flying AROUND a planet, ship engines are too slow.

I haven't studied creation of X4 universe, yet, but will have to obviously. So, yeah, real size of planet is rather out of a question for myself. For example, how to fit 40000 km model into 300km sector? How would HA/LA system treat such giant? Would it activate chunks of geometry collision boxes depending on distance to player? How many of them are allowed to be within one model? How hard would such big and complex collision geometry hit performance? How complex it can be until it collapses? What about those ships trapped into LA part of the planet, in the middle of it? Does the collision detection CPU or GPU-related?
So - no, I'll likely go with a model of up to 100-km diameter and name it planetoid or moon. Even for such small stellar body, the way the collision geometry works is my main concern. Simply, because I know very little about it as there's no tech docs explaining it in detail, apart from how to create one. Very few problems could be resolved through reverse engineering, like testing shapes to find the right answer of how big a single geometry collision shape can be. Do we, modders, really have to waste our time finding answers devs have in the heads and could share in a single document likely be written in a few hours? Does it really help the company that modders burnt out or get demotivated?

That's the rough idea of it.

I do have rough ideas how explorable planets could be done in X4. One of which is Scariff-like moon with the impenetrable (in both ways) shield, and armed station working as a gate to it.

https://imgur.com/a/rawedQw

Technically, it'll be a jump gate to another sector pretending to be a planet (like in the vids in this thread, smoke and mirror stuff), or over the surface of actual model of small moon (if doable). I played X-RebirthVR but for a short time. I've seen wonders of its world on YT vids. I really did my homework in most part, I believe. I'm looking for 100% true answers that can lead me to right tools and best approaches for upcoming problematic areas. But of course, I understand how few people have done something similar before and that the knowledge in this particular area is very scarce.
I could easily scrap some of my creations and start new ones from scratch to stick with asteroid-only theme, but would love not to. It's like 2 months of my intensive work as I'm pretty much still a newbee in Blender. On top of that, learning new stuff is great fun. It's just...eh... does it always have to be THAT hard when it comes to X4 modding?

[vvvvvvvv]

I haven't studied creation of X4 universe, yet, but will have to obviously. So, yeah, real size of planet is rather out of a question for myself. For example, how to fit 40000 km model into 300km sector? How would HA/LA system treat such giant?

40000 km is flying around the equator. Circumference. Earth has radius of 6000+ km meaning 12km from end to end. But the reasonable first target would be a planetoid. Or a very large asteroid.

X4 as it is already have planets and large objects, but:



But usually it is visual geometry with a killzone around it.

Would it activate chunks of geometry collision boxes depending on distance to player? How many of them are allowed to be within one model?

Those are things you'd need to test. Get an untextured cube in. See how big you can make it. See if you can make it a station. See if it works. Yes, there are couple of points where it can fail.

Does the collision detection CPU or GPU-related?

Collision detection almost certainly runs on CPU.

Do we, modders, really have to waste our time finding answers devs have in the heads and could share in a single document likely be written in a few hours?

No, and that's why I'm not trying to hack in planetfall myself. I'm not egosoft employee, this is not my IP, and while I like the game, for me it would be more interesting to work on something of my own instead. No offense intended to anyone. Stuff like that SkyrimVR mod I mentioned and, for example, Skyrim Script Extender are result of huge passion and dedication, and that doesn't happen often.

I'm looking for 100% true answers that can lead me to right tools and best approaches for upcoming problematic areas.

If I were investing into it, I'd approach using the list above. Make a cube in, see if it has collision, see if you can make it big, see if you can make it a station with a doc. Minimum investment at each stage. Basically, do not invest in any sort of visuals until you're sure the untextured version works.

Obviously I suggest to bother with it only if you're having fun in the process. If you just want a planetfall for yourself jury-rigging something in Uningine or Unreal engine may be easier. Of course, this wouldn't have anything to do with x4...

[NightIntruder]

40000 km is flying around the equator. Circumference. Earth has radius of 6000+ km meaning 12km from end to end. But the reasonable first target would be a planetoid. Or a very large asteroid.

Lol, it was a momentary lapse in judgment on my side. Yeah, whatever. Whether it's 40K or 12K kilometers of diameter, it doesn't matter. It's the same level of fiction at this moment. The biggest asteroid in the game is Xenon one, ca.20km long IIRC. DABC submod of SWI mod had some troubles getting their 20-km long super stardestroyers to work. But those were ships and the problems could have different origin.
I may try with that size first, like 20km wide planetoid. I know how to test things, reverse engineer them. I understand the concept of blockout/blockmesh/greybox phase, although rarely use them. This project will force me to do so, as I will have to make every step small, apparently

[Realspace]

A doable way to have interactive moons is using normal models of small asteroid-like moons (I found plenty in Rebirth and used in XRSGE), then removing collision but adding a sphere of influence of identical size (i used this for creating real atmospheres around planets but can be used for terrain collision instead, a few meters above). Then generating dense asteroids to cover the surface of the moon. Asteroids (looking as mountains) that can be destroyed and mined. Not really an elegant way, but talking about what this engine can do, this can be done.

Or gas giants (those I already did in XRSGE) having several layers of atmosphere providing different levels of friction. Earth-like planets are another story, not for a case Elite has not those planets as landable. To me that would be even useless for this kind of game. On contrary, interactive moons or gas giants integrate well in this kind of game.

Also stations can be placed on the surface. I don't know if this depends on vulkan but textures very close do not pixelate, they acquire a sort of blur that makes them acceptable to see even from very close. I created some asteroid stations this way, they are station put on the surface of gigantic asteroids that do not pixelate when you are close.

[vvvvvvvv]

I don't know if this depends on vulkan but textures very close do not pixelate, they acquire a sort of blur

... It is called bilinear filtration, been a standard feature since Half-Life 1. Unless you meant something else.

[Raptor34]

Can always do it like Everspace 2. Just have the planet be a different sector. And prohibit landing freely.
Does any relatively popular game that aren't hard sims have seamless space to surface anyway? And by seamless I mean you can fire from orbit and hit a target planetside? Not ground targets, but maneuvering airborne targets. And vice versa of course. Though this wouldn't be relevant for X4 with their short ranges.

[NightIntruder]

A doable way to have interactive moons is using normal models of small asteroid-like moons (I found plenty in Rebirth and used in XRSGE),

We've talked before and I appreciate your experience and suggestions. Sphere of influence is actually an interesting workaround which I'll try later. Gas giants with atmosphere will come handy too. Thank you for the suggestions!
When it comes to stations being placed on a surface, I rather go with my own base designs. So far, my outposts have been "embeded" into asteroid models in which necessary mesh adjustments were made if needed. This is to prevent vanilla method of building station. It works great in an empty space but it's hard to imagine it working with a base placed on a surface (eg. modules being freely rotated along any axis).

Can always do it like Everspace 2. Just have the planet be a different sector. And prohibit landing freely.

Yeah, that's one of possible solutions. Shielded planet as a sector, with gate to it, likely a desert or water world covered by atmosphere, with a base/outpost elevated above the collision (influence) sphere. Landing freely is not an option due to the way landing mechanics was invented in this game. Without exact, detailed collision shape of the planet it wouldn't work great anyway, I assume. So, yeah, smoke and mirrors way: a huge influence zone with low quality of planet masked by atmospheric haze, plus a few detailed points of interests coupled with landing locations (and detailed collision mesh) is likely a way to go with this particular solution. Also, a huge undertaking for a single modder, sadly.

Does any relatively popular game that aren't hard sims have seamless space to surface anyway? And by seamless I mean you can fire from orbit and hit a target planetside? Not ground targets, but maneuvering airborne targets. And vice versa of course. Though this wouldn't be relevant for X4 with their short ranges.

I could come up with "Infinite: Battlespace" title only. Hard to judge whether the game is hardcore sim or even a popular one, tho. Anyway, I am gonna test two solutions: a planet-as-sector (AKA smoke &mirror stuff), and small moon/planetoid body shielded with a gate. Perhaps the both solutions can exists alongside

[vvvvvvvv]

Does any relatively popular game that aren't hard sims have seamless space to surface anyway?

No Man's Sky, Elite Dangerous and I believe Star Citizen. Oh and Space Engineers. The thing is in most of the scenarios weapons do not have enough range to reach the the ground from orbit, and some games operate in a smaller reality bubble. However you can absolutely chuck a crate onto someone's head in Space Engineers 1, though good luck hitting the target. Especially with 100 m/s max speed limit the game has by default.