There is no diplomacy? We have a New Endgame Crises but no diplomacy??? :Poll

[hebrux]

No - there is diplomacy available to work on the subfractions. Additionally I'd rather not have a 4X-gamey dynamic systems that gives the player control over the main factions standing to each other.

The player shouldn't be omnipresent, X4 should stay a universe simulation which doesn't center around the player - no matter how many credits / assets he is able to get.

No we're not talking about making the player a God, just a part of the universe. They player should be able to create and rise to the level of Faction and the other factions should be able to recognize that.

Think Diplomacy from Civilization games for example

[Witzzard]

Voting no due to two reasons.
1. The whole "Sandbox" idea people try to push with removal of actual plots is something i dislike. Looking at Mount and Blade 2, i simply dislike the stupidity of the Diplomacy there. And even with a Crusader Kings, the systems are often just simply dice-roll systems, feeling too unnatural to be enjoyable.
2. Before thinking about deep diplomacy systems we need further optimisation and time spend on tactics and strategic layers. And i doubt there's much optimisation to be had, looking at how many actors X4 is calculating at any given moment. Only if we ever get to a point whereas there can be some fluidity to fleet movements and combat happenning at real time, i might be for some more plot driven diplomacy.

[MKL81]

Voted no. Seems like a complex thing to add which would absorb a lot of dev time that I'd prefer used on other aspects of the game. Also have a strong preference for X4's current plot-based approach to adjusting relationships between factions. In this regard would very much prefer dev time to be used to create more plots with which to influence factions, particularly TEL and/or MIN since neither faction currently has a plot based around them. It's much more in keeping with the way I play X4, more as an RPG than a 4X game; the plots provide surreptitious means to mess with the factions, rather than clicking on buttons when certain thresholds have been achieved (frankly the latter sounds rather dull).

If that would have more than one outcome and so that you could set a number of different mix and match scenarios as a result - I'm also ok with that, but I suspect this would be as much effort involved. Some small touches would still be nice if the faction recognized our actual size as empire and level of influence, even when it comes to simple things like greeting, maybe new set of better paid missions.
But then again - it has been so many years and numerous requests to add guild quest for joined empires of Split and Paranids, and even that did not happen. If I remember correctly same goes for war missions.

[hebrux]

The game needs a sandbox mode, without the regular campaigns, where ideas like this can be incorporated without worrying about affecting storylines. A game mode where things are allowed to go nuts and become imbalanced, where chaos is allowed to happen.

agreed. With the current guardrails, the game isn't a true sandbox. It's a small sandbox lol, you can do certain things but not everything you want to do because your canvas area is so small

[hebrux]

I updated the maybe after looking at people's thoughts. Many would like to see it if it's part of a separate custom game

[Falcrack]

The game needs a sandbox mode, without the regular campaigns, where ideas like this can be incorporated without worrying about affecting storylines. A game mode where things are allowed to go nuts and become imbalanced, where chaos is allowed to happen.

agreed. With the current guardrails, the game isn't a true sandbox. It's a small sandbox lol, you can do certain things but not everything you want to do because your canvas area is so small

Changed my vote from yes to maybe, because I think it ought to be a separate game mode so as to keep the plots and storyline.

One issue is trying to maintain a competitive universe where there is some semblance of equilibrium with dynamic diplomacy. You don't want every game where for example the Argon consistently conquer everybody. There needs to be some balancing, but less guardrails than we have now.

One way they could make it work is that as factions get progressively weaker, enemy factions are less inclined to invade them and try to take their territory. Factions that are steamrolling other factions and have grown very large will end up having most factions allied against them and trying to take back territory. There could be rules that AI factions would follow to prevent the complete collapse of factions. Of course, the player would be free to do what he wants.

Customizable options such as aggressiveness levels, max fleet sizes, and so on could exist for players to be able to tweak the universe to their liking.

[Nerwesta]

I really don't understand how people are so keen to think having a fully fledged diplomacy system somehow contradicts to the plot and storylines we are offered to.
These issues can be fixed on a vast array of possibilites, to my view is far more interesting than having to complete a plot and settle a choice A or B for the rest of the game, talk about static stuff ...

Also I would only imagine if I have deep relations with a faction - to the point that we can offer each other some protection, it's because I already fixed their most important stuff they wanted me to do.
Not because I sold them a bunch of Hull parts.

As for the "canon" argument, you as a player can definitely wipe entire factions if you got the means, how it is respecting the canon / lore to settle in Terran or Paranid space as a Teladi ?
It does.
I can also, after completing Kingdom's End, wipe the Argon without seeing a single Boron fighter rescuing them, which definitely should happen.

Ultimately the game is built so we are some sort of jack of all trades / wealthy mercenary going from faction to faction to engage on their most important issues, as if we were some kind of Chosen One, I hate that.
This should stay as is for a Chosen One starter or Mercenary because I think some players might like this, but we should have the possibility to have narrower starters to make up for the diplomacy to shine = more choices, everyone is happy.
I don't understand how me as a Terran can fiddle on Argon space that easily.

All of these are the main reason my immersion is tarnished towards the endgame, I'm expected to do everything to move the game around outside it's narrow boxes, and even then it's not that expanded ( renaming a Split faction ... )
So as much as the game wants us to think we're just a pawn on that giant organic universe, where everything can live without our actions, ultimately we can destroy or spare entire empires without them smartly deciding how to react, let alone update their relationship as the time goes by ... This is not what I can picture as a sandbox.

PS : Mount & Blade with all it's faults, does this so much better, if you're a mercenary, then you won't have any chance to fiddle on plots, if you have a wealthy empire, you can expect your neighbours to prop up some rivalries.

No - there is diplomacy available to work on the subfractions. Additionally I'd rather not have a 4X-gamey dynamic systems that gives the player control over the main factions standing to each other.

The player shouldn't be omnipresent, X4 should stay a universe simulation which doesn't center around the player - no matter how many credits / assets he is able to get.

It kinda is though, this is why a diplomacy is needed by many of us.
( see my above points )

[The Q]

TLDR:
What's the point in allowing us to build an empire if no recognizes me as an empire?
After I create a faction name, take over 5 sectors and have over 1 billion in assets from ships and stations, when I'm greeted by another faction they're like "Greetings Pilot" (-_-)

I share your sentiment, but I would like to point out that it's hardly as easy as that. The game is designed around the player being a single entity, be it interactions, communications or (re)presentation. You won't be able to change that by just giving the player a few more options with galaxy-wide effects.

Still, I voted 'yes'.

For an 'easy' implementation (I know nothing really is) I like your suggestions. But I feel that there needs to be another "currency" which determines how often I can negotiate with someone. Otherwise your suggestion just grants me more options without any limitation or cost. I feel that would become really boring really fast. So assets would grant you a faction level which again determines what diplomacy options you have available. (Further dependencies could be included based on ranks and reputation.) Then a simple cost or currency could be a "cooldown" time for selecting certain options. A bit more sophisticated, yet harder to implement would be the necessity to actually negotiate with a faction. Offering a faction something they want, and getting a list of possible rewards. Or likewise selecting an option, and being presented with a list of costs to choose from. If the negotiaton option is not a one of trade, but has a time component, even more requirements or one-time events or missions could be added. Fail those, and the deal is history. Even more sophisticated, and even harder to implement would be tracking the actual outcome of negotiations. Cannot keep your promises? Do not talk to me or my faction again (at least not in the near future).

As for other potential negotiations:
• Trade deal to deliver certain wares in a certain quantity in a certain amount of time in exchange for higher selling / lower buyer prices
• Security patrols in exchange for ware discounts
• Suggest the redeployments of troops to another sector
• Suggest the expansion into a new territory / sector

As for your suggested galaxy updates, I'm not a fan of a dynamic war system. It messes up relations, and just becomes a pia if relation doesn't change properly back and remaining hostile ships roam through the universe. I'm also not a fan of completely annihilating a faction. There should always be chance for a faction to return. I'm not sure what "maximum fire distance" has to do with diplomacy at all. Kinda looks like a misplaced QoL feature here.

[Nanook]

I don't think the current ideas of diplomacy are enough. I really would like the player to be a member of the faction they start with, with all the pros and cons that would bring. The player would then rise or fall within that faction depending on their actions, and maybe even get kicked out if they're bad enough, perhaps then joining a rival or pirate faction. It would make the current game starts much more meaningful.

Discuss.

Oh, and I voted 'no', in preference for my ideas.

[hebrux]

I don't think the current ideas of diplomacy are enough. I really would like the player to be a member of the faction they start with, with all the pros and cons that would bring. The player would then rise or fall within that faction depending on their actions, and maybe even get kicked out if they're bad enough, perhaps then joining a rival or pirate faction. It would make the current game starts much more meaningful.

Discuss.

Oh, and I voted 'no', in preference for my ideas.

I think you should have voted maybe lol since you said the suggestion of diplomacy didn't go far enough. Voting No means no Diplomacy at all

[jlehtone]

I really would like the player to be a member of the faction they start with, with all the pros and cons that would bring. The player would then rise or fall within that faction depending on their actions, and maybe even get kicked out if they're bad enough, perhaps then joining a rival or pirate faction. It would make the current game starts much more meaningful.

That would definitely add to the game. Even the budgeted start would have something more to think about than the haircut of the character.


However, then comes the question of how the "you can do all the plots with any and every start" would fit in? (Back in X2 we had one set of starts with the plot, and the rest without. The X3 shifted to this current model.)

[Hector0x]

Kind of a hot topic lately. Here is my take:

• If you try to implement diplomacy into the X series you run into a game design problem
• Your diplomacy can work in two different ways. Either it creates meaningful gameplay, but this requires that the AI eventually treats the player no different from other NPC factions (and is allowed to declare war on the player)
  Or you make your system safe for the player, give him special rules, privileges or make everything NPC only. But then your diplomacy is nothing more than a cheat menu for the player to set up faction relations the way he wants
• In my opinion diplomacy only makes sense if you design it with actual risk for the player. But now comes the actual problem:
• The average human will play X4 for an extended duration before he reaches a stage where he would interact with your diplomacy mechanics.
  At this point most players are so invested into their empire that they are afraid to disrupt their perfect trade networks and supply chains.
  X4 is not like Stellaris where you can make tons of progress in just 3 hours and everything is simple and resources are beamed into your magic chest.
  War is messy in X4. Your trade routes are not safe anymore and you can’t sell your products.
• This is the reason why almost everyone tries to stay friendly with all factions and always plays X4 as a Xenon defense simulator. Diplomacy can literally not happen as an official Egosoft feature because this earlygame grind investment makes the player naturally averse of any risk or unexpected changes. So diplomacy can only happen in the form of a community mod, imho

As some of you might know i’m developing exactly that kind of mod atm. Everyone has a different opinion on how “diplomacy” in X4 is supposed to work. So i want to share a bit of my design philosophy to clarify what you can expect:

• First off there won't be a negotiation screen where you could haggle over sectors or something. People would just use that to trick the AI.
  At most it is planned to allow the exchange of previously claimed stations as a direct consequence of a peace deal. Although this feature might not be in the release version. Right now all war reparations must be paid in cash.
  I’ll never allow a negotiated exchange of ships, stations or sectors. It's just not that type of game.
• The main issue i want to adress is that no faction cares if you grind out an overpowered player empire. My primary design goal is to make the AI more reactive and add some unpredictability to the midgame.
  It is by design that you won't be able to predict who your allies and enemies are going to be. The AI might not want to be your friend. There is always some randomness in every AI decision and you can never be certain. This is what makes a game interesting for me. I don’t like difficulty but i love unpredictability
• I expect that it’s gonna be unpopular that the AI can aggro the player unprovoked, but i’m taking various precautions which hopefully convince the playerbase to accept this new risk
• my mod will be fully customizable. There is even a cheatmode which turns you into a puppetmaster who controls the diplomacy for all factions. So you will also have your cheatmenu option to set up relations.
• Then the entire system will also be opt-in for the player because it depends on sector ownership. I’m planning an optional harder difficulty mode which prevents that you can just avoid sector ownership
• To get around the design issue with the long earlygame grind and that general risk aversion that comes from it, i’ll elevate the player’s starting situation to reduce the grind and investment before you can "get to the diplo stage"
  You will start with all blueprints, research, galaxy knowledge and i’ll probably add a special gamestart with a resource depot and a fleet. Although you can disable everything and start from scratch if you want.
• my second design goal is to make warfare in general much more viable for the player. Angering a faction is too much of a hassle and never worth it.
• the mod will change the game so that multiple small wars against varying opponents are viable and the player has an incentive to keep his empire reasonable sized and on a more even playing field with the other factions
  • All relations are truly bilateral now. So you and the AI can simply ‘agree’ to end your war and make peace again.
  • only beating up the same factions all the time gives them a reason to team up against you
  • winning wars is actually profitable
  • Your economy will be mostly safe because many conflicts are “military-only” and freighters, miners or factories are usually not targeted
  • The Xenon use diplomacy like everyone else. There is no galactic evil which will eventually be defeated and then nothing happens anymore
  • There are no issues from faction death because factions will surrender and vassalize each other. And if some faction eventually has too many vassals they start a rebellion to break free again.
  • If any faction becomes too dominant most of the galaxy will eventually team up and cut them down to size again

[jlehtone]

[hebrux]

Kind of a hot topic lately. Here is my take:

• If you try to implement diplomacy into the X series you run into a game design problem
• Your diplomacy can work in two different ways. Either it creates meaningful gameplay, but this requires that the AI eventually treats the player no different from other NPC factions (and is allowed to declare war on the player)
  Or you make your system safe for the player, give him special rules, privileges or make everything NPC only. But then your diplomacy is nothing more than a cheat menu for the player to set up faction relations the way he wants
• In my opinion diplomacy only makes sense if you design it with actual risk for the player. But now comes the actual problem:
• The average human will play X4 for an extended duration before he reaches a stage where he would interact with your diplomacy mechanics.
  At this point most players are so invested into their empire that they are afraid to disrupt their perfect trade networks and supply chains.
  X4 is not like Stellaris where you can make tons of progress in just 3 hours and everything is simple and resources are beamed into your magic chest.
  War is messy in X4. Your trade routes are not safe anymore and you can’t sell your products.
• This is the reason why almost everyone tries to stay friendly with all factions and always plays X4 as a Xenon defense simulator. Diplomacy can literally not happen as an official Egosoft feature because this earlygame grind investment makes the player naturally averse of any risk or unexpected changes. So diplomacy can only happen in the form of a community mod, imho

As some of you might know i’m developing exactly that kind of mod atm. Everyone has a different opinion on how “diplomacy” in X4 is supposed to work. So i want to share a bit of my design philosophy to clarify what you can expect:

• First off there won't be a negotiation screen where you could haggle over sectors or something. People would just use that to trick the AI.
  At most it is planned to allow the exchange of previously claimed stations as a direct consequence of a peace deal. Although this feature might not be in the release version. Right now all war reparations must be paid in cash.
  I’ll never allow a negotiated exchange of ships, stations or sectors. It's just not that type of game.
• The main issue i want to adress is that no faction cares if you grind out an overpowered player empire. My primary design goal is to make the AI more reactive and add some unpredictability to the midgame.
  It is by design that you won't be able to predict who your allies and enemies are going to be. The AI might not want to be your friend. There is always some randomness in every AI decision and you can never be certain. This is what makes a game interesting for me. I don’t like difficulty but i love unpredictability
• I expect that it’s gonna be unpopular that the AI can aggro the player unprovoked, but i’m taking various precautions which hopefully convince the playerbase to accept this new risk
• my mod will be fully customizable. There is even a cheatmode which turns you into a puppetmaster who controls the diplomacy for all factions. So you will also have your cheatmenu option to set up relations.
• Then the entire system will also be opt-in for the player because it depends on sector ownership. I’m planning an optional harder difficulty mode which prevents that you can just avoid sector ownership
• To get around the design issue with the long earlygame grind and that general risk aversion that comes from it, i’ll elevate the player’s starting situation to reduce the grind and investment before you can "get to the diplo stage"
  You will start with all blueprints, research, galaxy knowledge and i’ll probably add a special gamestart with a resource depot and a fleet. Although you can disable everything and start from scratch if you want.
• my second design goal is to make warfare in general much more viable for the player. Angering a faction is too much of a hassle and never worth it.
• the mod will change the game so that multiple small wars against varying opponents are viable and the player has an incentive to keep his empire reasonable sized and on a more even playing field with the other factions
  • All relations are truly bilateral now. So you and the AI can simply ‘agree’ to end your war and make peace again.
  • only beating up the same factions all the time gives them a reason to team up against you
  • winning wars is actually profitable
  • Your economy will be mostly safe because many conflicts are “military-only” and freighters, miners or factories are usually not targeted
  • The Xenon use diplomacy like everyone else. There is no galactic evil which will eventually be defeated and then nothing happens anymore
  • There are no issues from faction death because factions will surrender and vassalize each other. And if some faction eventually has too many vassals they start a rebellion to break free again.
  • If any faction becomes too dominant most of the galaxy will eventually team up and cut them down to size again

This is an interesting idea.
I personally don't want to rely on a mod for the mechanic in the OP but I'm always welcome to new and great mods. The problem with a Mod is that it can break with future updates of the main game. And the modder can't be counted on to keep their mod constantly updated

[hebrux]

I really would like the player to be a member of the faction they start with, with all the pros and cons that would bring. The player would then rise or fall within that faction depending on their actions, and maybe even get kicked out if they're bad enough, perhaps then joining a rival or pirate faction. It would make the current game starts much more meaningful.

That would definitely add to the game. Even the budgeted start would have something more to think about than the haircut of the character.


However, then comes the question of how the "you can do all the plots with any and every start" would fit in? (Back in X2 we had one set of starts with the plot, and the rest without. The X3 shifted to this current model.)

food for thought

[MoonHill Vanguard]

The diplomatic system is necessary, but it needs a mechanic: it's like if you have more than a billion assets, and you control a sector, get recognized through negotiations or wars, and appoint a diplomat, and turn on the diplomatic system at the same time

[LetMeIn11]

Not sure if this counts as diplomacy but I want to have a sector ownership mechanic properly implemented.

It would be a good start just not to get reputation penalties when you deal with other factions' smugglers in your own sectors. Then it would be good if other factions would ask a permission and pay you for building stations in your sectors and if you could collect fees from trades on these stations. Then it would be awesome if enemy production stations in captured sectors would suffer from your administrative power: such stations should allow you to dock and trade with them no matter your reputation with the opposing faction and they should also suffer from high trade fees you impose on them(essentially when you capture a sector enemy stations should become your subjects without giving you a direct control over them).

This is a bare minimum to make sector capturing worth anything.

As a bonus it would be nice to be able to build your own highways in the captured sectors to optimize economy.

[Brinnie]

I don't think the current ideas of diplomacy are enough. I really would like the player to be a member of the faction they start with, with all the pros and cons that would bring. The player would then rise or fall within that faction depending on their actions, and maybe even get kicked out if they're bad enough, perhaps then joining a rival or pirate faction. It would make the current game starts much more meaningful.

Discuss.

Oh, and I voted 'no', in preference for my ideas.

I have voted "only as an option" cause though I have nothing against more diplomacy features, at the same time too much emphasis on it worries me.
The reason for it is what happened to "Farnham Legacy", although I found FL the best of X3 I had disabled diplomacy altogether as I found it far too heavily implemented, even to the point where (in my opinion) it made no sense at all.

Basically I am all for letting people play the game the way they like it and options let games be tailored to fit specific needs.

[hebrux]

I don't think the current ideas of diplomacy are enough. I really would like the player to be a member of the faction they start with, with all the pros and cons that would bring. The player would then rise or fall within that faction depending on their actions, and maybe even get kicked out if they're bad enough, perhaps then joining a rival or pirate faction. It would make the current game starts much more meaningful.

Discuss.

Oh, and I voted 'no', in preference for my ideas.

I have voted "only as an option" cause though I have nothing against more diplomacy features, at the same time too much emphasis on on it worries me.
The reason for it is what happened to "Farnham Legacy", although I found FL the best of X3 I had disabled diplomacy altogether as I found it far too heavily implemented, even to the point where (in my opinion) it made no sense at all.

Basically I am all for letting people play the game the way they like it and options let games be tailored to fit specific needs.

Yes I think us saying we want Diplomacy is kind of broad. Personally, I'm looking for at least Basic Diplomacy where other factions see you as an equal if certain criterias are met like net worth and number of sectors held. Once they see you as an equal and not just a Rich Pilot, they can trade stations, sectors, money (maybe not money since factions have infinite money) and whatever else the Devs think would be good to trade.

[jlehtone]

NPC factions do not trade "stations and sectors" with other NPC factions. Why should there be one different faction?