Results of mining survey for new beta

[MSterling]

Some people in this thread are worried about depletion increasing the need for micro management of their mining fleets

As far as I can tell, the new proposed paradigm is that probes will be used to determine automagically where the fleets will mine, insofar as when a region is depleted, or so badly so that it is a waste of time mining there, the AI script will spot a better location to mine via the probes already there.
So if you don't probe out a few regions, you will have to micromanage more, but probes remove the need to micromanage, so they become a much more useful tool, not for letting you know where to go for resources, but to remove the need for you to care.

Would this be roughly correct?

[Tidaar]

Thanks guys for sharing the poll outcome and stats. Really great work on transparency, I personally appreciate it very much.

On the Khaak threat , I had some show up suddenly in a sector of mine. And I was like no way they pop like that , it is not fair. Then I went on a search and found the little buggers had built a station. I eliminated it and they were gone. I was really impressed and happy about this. Very sneaky Egosoft but brilliant.

[taztaz502]

The intention here is for the player to make a trade off between either more micromanagement (taken to the extreme, by actually going into the sector and ending a local Khaak threat for a longer period of time for example) OR simply throwing more money at the problem either by assigning fighters OR simply eating up the loss of mining ships over time and getting new ones.

Replacing mining ships/escorts is an unwarranted chore though. Please give us an option to resupply lost ships with our own wharfs.

This would make it so you could babysit miners in the early game to ensure they survive because you can't afford replacements but late game it i don't want to be babysitting mining ships or replacing escorts constantly.

[Raevyan]

The intention here is for the player to make a trade off between either more micromanagement (taken to the extreme, by actually going into the sector and ending a local Khaak threat for a longer period of time for example) OR simply throwing more money at the problem either by assigning fighters OR simply eating up the loss of mining ships over time and getting new ones.

How do you end a local khaak threat for a longer period if they respawn After 5 minutes next to your miners? As many people are reporting the police/patrol commands are pretty much useless to protect assets. Escorts still fly ahead/lack behind when they got different speeds.

Search in the periphery... there is a way

Don’t the Khaak stations just spawn somewhere else if destroyed? That just moves the problem to a different area.

[Tidaar]

How do you end a local khaak threat for a longer period if they respawn After 5 minutes next to your miners? As many people are reporting the police/patrol commands are pretty much useless to protect assets. Escorts still fly ahead/lack behind when they got different speeds.

Search in the periphery... there is a way

Don’t the Khaak stations just spawn somewhere else if destroyed? That just moves the problem to a different area.

Yes that seems to be the idea, playing TAG with the Khaak. Surprise you get a Khaak. The shame... if their mother-ship would see what they have become in X4 she would roll in her grave.

[GCU Grey Area]

Replacing mining ships/escorts is an unwarranted chore though.

Recommend using L class miners if you don't want to bother replacing miners or assigning escorts. In my experience they've been pretty much impervious to anything the Khaak can throw at them & don't really need escorts at all.

Don’t the Khaak stations just spawn somewhere else if destroyed? That just moves the problem to a different area.

That could be a good thing if it ends up being someone else's problem. Might be someone I really don't like. Personally would be delighted if a Khaak station relocated to Argon Prime - I'm already herding the Xenon in their direction, but the more the merrier (playing as ZYA Split in my current game).

[Alan Phipps]

Maybe we need a 'Final Final Fury' ?

[TheDeliveryMan]

The bigger issue I'm seeing is once an economy outgrows a core sector keeping them supplied starts taxing the 5 sector limit.
If you want us to expand our empires we need a way to have stations interact with the farther mining stations without having to create 3 trade stations between them.

After Beta 8 I've moved my mining operations to the edges where Methane and ore are more available. This has required me to use 5 times the ships to handle the transfer and exchange of wares between the trade stations. It also creates a supply chain issue as before I could have a Just in time delivery system. Now I have to have station request 3 times the wares to have enough trade orders flying to supply due to the distance. This in turn requires larger trading stations with large storages to keep the incoming Trade orders and outgoing orders requested so the miners don't stop mining when the buy orders get filled.

Repeat Orders are your friend. You can tell them to mine or buy from a mining outpost and sell at the other end of the universe. You can even put "fly to" commands in between to keep them away from dangerous regions.

[easternsun]

Search in the periphery... there is a way

Don’t the Khaak stations just spawn somewhere else if destroyed? That just moves the problem to a different area.

Yes that seems to be the idea, playing TAG with the Khaak. Surprise you get a Khaak. The shame... if their mother-ship would see what they have become in X4 she would roll in her grave.

Once the turrets are fixed attacking the station will actually take a real fleet I'm hoping. I don't hate this as the game gets too safe in player sectors. They just need to fix the patrol and distress probes actually doing something when your ships get attacked. IN Beta 8 the amount of probes I see are gone compared to a few versions back where I could see multiple being sent.

[taztaz502]

Replacing mining ships/escorts is an unwarranted chore though.

Recommend using L class miners if you don't want to bother replacing miners or assigning escorts. In my experience they've been pretty much impervious to anything the Khaak can throw at them & don't really need escorts at all.

Don’t the Khaak stations just spawn somewhere else if destroyed? That just moves the problem to a different area.

That could be a good thing if it ends up being someone else's problem. Might be someone I really don't like. Personally would be delighted if a Khaak station relocated to Argon Prime - I'm already herding the Xenon in their direction, but the more the merrier (playing as ZYA Split in my current game).

My M class perform fine currently, they can take on and escape multiple xenon/khaak OOS i'm just wondering with the new changes. I also wouldn't want to sacrifice a whole selection of ships just to accommodate changes to mining which is why i suggested automation to replace lost ships.

I would rather them not change anything at all than implement it poorly is what I'm getting at.

[Artean]

Thanks guys for sharing the poll outcome and stats. Really great work on transparency, I personally appreciate it very much.

On the Khaak threat , I had some show up suddenly in a sector of mine. And I was like no way they pop like that , it is not fair. Then I went on a search and found the little buggers had built a station. I eliminated it and they were gone. I was really impressed and happy about this. Very sneaky Egosoft but brilliant.

This. I think it is a great new feature.

[FatalKeks]

So in summary I don't think there is much reason to fear more micromanagement because of faster region depletion. Where there might be more micromanagement however, is in reacting to increased attacks on miner ships. It is fully intentional from our side, that mining in general gets more dangerous and this is even more true in more remote areas, after moving resources away from the center.

The intention here is for the player to make a trade off between either more micromanagement (taken to the extreme, by actually going into the sector and ending a local Khaak threat for a longer period of time for example) OR simply throwing more money at the problem either by assigning fighters OR simply eating up the loss of mining ships over time and getting new ones.

I think, it's okay for mining to become more dangerous. But I also would like to see some tools to handle the danger more efficiently.

• One simple solution would be a "protect (my) ships/assets in sector(s)" order. Since "patrol" is a bit random. The ships following this order would auto-help other ships which are beeing attacked in the corresponding sector(s). (This is actually the behaviour I would expect from the "patrol" order.)
• Another more complicated solution could be a "replacement manager" for fleets, which auto replaces lost ships. This would actually be a great QoL feature and would also be very usefull in other situations.

[easternsun]

The bigger issue I'm seeing is once an economy outgrows a core sector keeping them supplied starts taxing the 5 sector limit.
If you want us to expand our empires we need a way to have stations interact with the farther mining stations without having to create 3 trade stations between them.

After Beta 8 I've moved my mining operations to the edges where Methane and ore are more available. This has required me to use 5 times the ships to handle the transfer and exchange of wares between the trade stations. It also creates a supply chain issue as before I could have a Just in time delivery system. Now I have to have station request 3 times the wares to have enough trade orders flying to supply due to the distance. This in turn requires larger trading stations with large storages to keep the incoming Trade orders and outgoing orders requested so the miners don't stop mining when the buy orders get filled.

Repeat Orders are your friend. You can tell them to mine or buy from a mining outpost and sell at the other end of the universe. You can even put "fly to" commands in between to keep them away from dangerous regions.

For the beginning player the current Report Orders works. For late game players is a management nightmare and is worse than the pilot leveling design. I have 500 L class miners. To setup rules manually for each one stops making this a game and turns it into a Job.

[Tidaar]

Maybe we need a 'Final Final Fury' ?

Absolutely! Aunt Khaak is mad that they killed her sister and invades the Terrans. Those smug arrogant earthlings.

[dtpsprt]

All nice and dandy herr Bernd but still no mention of the elephant in the room: Pilot skill levelling...
And, of course, the fact that moving the resources in the periphery will, eventually, stall providing the faction's factories in the "core" sectors who are, of course, adjacent to the ring. Again the lack of experienced pilots to pick up profitable (and meaningful) trade runs, since this is dependent on their skill level and only the range of the total jobs on offer depends on the Manager's skill.

[BigBANGtheory]

but still no mention of the elephant in the room: Pilot skill levelling...

That is a valid point, at the early part of the game with low skill pilots and Autosector Mining you'll need refineries in sector or else you'll be having to micromanage the selling. On the face of it a simple fix would be to allow low skill pilots the ability to cross atleast 1-gate jump distance or a means to them level up faster (that doesn't involve ventures cos of modified saves).

This is one of the reasons I keep droning on about having mobile refineries and them being necessary for the new mining gameplay. Its also potentially a focal point for combat like a defence platforms so instead of Khaak harassing auto-miners and annoying the heck out of the player they go for the refinery as a priority which you could bolster/harden up in terms of shield, turrets and patrols.

That would be a triple win right there, Egosoft get to adjust the mining behaviour and it comes with improved gameplay pls send ur cheques to BangerZ Gaming Inc...

[Ketraar]

That is a valid point, at the early part of the game with low skill pilots and Autosector Mining you'll need refineries in sector or else you'll be having to micromanage the selling. On the face of it a simple fix would be to allow low skill pilots the ability to cross atleast 1-gate jump distance or a means to them level up faster (that doesn't involve ventures cos of modified saves).

Currently Pilot Seminar cost basically nothing, meaning you can skill any pilot to 2 stars for peanuts. Then just use the repeat command function (requires 1 star captain), you can predefine multiple sell targets, this is very cheap early game. Yes it requires SOME micro but the return is also very good.

MFG

Ketraar

[Roeleveld]

That is a valid point, at the early part of the game with low skill pilots and Autosector Mining you'll need refineries in sector or else you'll be having to micromanage the selling. On the face of it a simple fix would be to allow low skill pilots the ability to cross atleast 1-gate jump distance or a means to them level up faster (that doesn't involve ventures cos of modified saves).

Currently Pilot Seminar cost basically nothing, meaning you can skill any pilot to 2 stars for peanuts. Then just use the repeat command function (requires 1 star captain), you can predefine multiple sell targets, this is very cheap early game. Yes it requires SOME micro but the return is also very good.

MFG

Ketraar

Where can I buy pilot reminars beyond basic and 1-star?
Preferably in sufficient quantities to level up a fleet.

[dtpsprt]

Currently Pilot Seminar cost basically nothing, meaning you can skill any pilot to 2 stars for peanuts. Then just use the repeat command function (requires 1 star captain), you can predefine multiple sell targets, this is very cheap early game. Yes it requires SOME micro but the return is also very good.

MFG

Ketraar

True (partially) but not viable. We are talking miners right? That means resource saturation in the refineries happens at a very fast pace... the "repeat command" has to be alternating 2, maybe 3 different refineries.
(hearing the elephant stomping in the distance)
And from 2 stars to 3? Impossible for miners...
(the elephant trumpets angrily)

[grimgore]

True (partially) but not viable. We are talking miners right? That means resource saturation in the refineries happens at a very fast pace... the "repeat command" has to be alternating 2, maybe 3 different refineries.
(hearing the elephant stomping in the distance)
And from 2 stars to 3? Impossible for miners...
(the elephant trumpets angrily)

I hope egosoft hears us. I tell us because many people feel the same way and most of them have to use the mod crew leveling, but would like to play vanilla. It's a recurring theme on steam too.