Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

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GCU Grey Area
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by GCU Grey Area »

blanmgr wrote: Sun, 8. Dec 19, 23:18
GCU Grey Area wrote: Sun, 8. Dec 19, 22:30
Did those 5 destroyers have any fighter support?
Actually, they did have fighter support. The problems is by the time they make the "first strike with Bombers (at least 20), the Xenon I will already lock onto the first destroyer and completely eliminated the shields within seconds then move onto the next. By the time the fighter wings have the Xenon I shields down, I have already lost 3 Destroyers due to the rapid firing of the Xenon I.
Sounds like those destroyers were a bit too close at the start of the battle. Generally like to have my fighter screen around 10km in front of the rest of the fleet, so they engage the enemy capital before my destroyers get close enough to attract it's attention, or start shooting (i.e. order fighters to attack, wait until they're about 10km away, then order destroyers to attack). I also never expect my fighters to do anything particularly useful with regard to actually damaging the capital, certainly wouldn't expect them to have any noticeable effect on it's shields whatsoever. It's great if they can occasionally shoot at it's subsystems but even that's really not essential - my destroyers are there to do the, err... destroying, fighters are there purely to distract.

As for carrier capacity, in my view they're cheap enough that, by the time I can afford to build a fleet, I can easily afford multiple carriers. Rarely fill them completely anyway - generally stop at around 25 or so fighters per carrier (otherwise I end up waiting more than I'd like at the end of a battle for them all to dock). Consequently I'm fine with current carrier capacity. Only reason to change it in my view is perhaps to have a bit of diversity (rather than every carrier holding exactly the same number), maybe Teladi carriers could hold 5 more, while Paranid carriers hold 5 less, or something like that.
cool_lad
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by cool_lad »

GCU Grey Area wrote: Mon, 9. Dec 19, 00:18
blanmgr wrote: Sun, 8. Dec 19, 23:18
GCU Grey Area wrote: Sun, 8. Dec 19, 22:30
Did those 5 destroyers have any fighter support?
Actually, they did have fighter support. The problems is by the time they make the "first strike with Bombers (at least 20), the Xenon I will already lock onto the first destroyer and completely eliminated the shields within seconds then move onto the next. By the time the fighter wings have the Xenon I shields down, I have already lost 3 Destroyers due to the rapid firing of the Xenon I.
Sounds like those destroyers were a bit too close at the start of the battle. Generally like to have my fighter screen around 10km in front of the rest of the fleet, so they engage the enemy capital before my destroyers get close enough to attract it's attention, or start shooting (i.e. order fighters to attack, wait until they're about 10km away, then order destroyers to attack). I also never expect my fighters to do anything particularly useful with regard to actually damaging the capital, certainly wouldn't expect them to have any noticeable effect on it's shields whatsoever. It's great if they can occasionally shoot at it's subsystems but even that's really not essential - my destroyers are there to do the, err... destroying, fighters are there purely to distract.

As for carrier capacity, in my view they're cheap enough that, by the time I can afford to build a fleet, I can easily afford multiple carriers. Rarely fill them completely anyway - generally stop at around 25 or so fighters per carrier (otherwise I end up waiting more than I'd like at the end of a battle for them all to dock). Consequently I'm fine with current carrier capacity. Only reason to change it in my view is perhaps to have a bit of diversity (rather than every carrier holding exactly the same number), maybe Teladi carriers could hold 5 more, while Paranid carriers hold 5 less, or something like that.
More than anything, carriers need that capacity to be commensurate to their size and cost. The capacity is presently far too low for their size.

The simple fact is that the carrier capacity is beyond ridiculous in just how low it is compared to the size of the ship, which basically makes the carrier a massive liability in practice, since it's a massive pile of empty space just sitting there and eating shots from the enemy, offering a rather pathetic amount of storage space, nothing in the way of weapons and little else otherwise.

I'd go so far as to call it the poster boy if this game's balance and ships completely failing to scale past M class ships. And the carrier, being a literal mountain sized (actually larger, since there's plenty of mountains that are smaller than it) ship that can only store 50 odd ships, is one of the best examples of that.

As for the destroyers vs the Xenon I. The Xenon I is large enough to occupy a significant portion of a fighter's weapon range. And since this game seems to have a rule where turrets, no matter how much larger, can't outrange (and only barely out damage in a handful of cases) fighter weapons; means that Destoryers don't have any option but to get in close, since that pea shooter of a main battery isn't even going to tickle the shields on the I.
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by GCU Grey Area »

cool_lad wrote: Mon, 9. Dec 19, 08:17 More than anything, carriers need that capacity to be commensurate to their size and cost. The capacity is presently far too low for their size.
Actually looks about right to me when the volume of the docking bays (particularly M docks) is added up, as rough approximation of the internal volume that would be needed to store each ship.
The simple fact is that the carrier capacity is beyond ridiculous in just how low it is compared to the size of the ship, which basically makes the carrier a massive liability in practice, since it's a massive pile of empty space just sitting there and eating shots from the enemy, offering a rather pathetic amount of storage space, nothing in the way of weapons and little else otherwise.
If your carriers EVER get shot at, or need to fire at enemy ships, you're using them wrong. Carriers should be kept WAY at the back, several 10's of km from any possibility of getting involved in the fight.
As for the destroyers vs the Xenon I. The Xenon I is large enough to occupy a significant portion of a fighter's weapon range. And since this game seems to have a rule where turrets, no matter how much larger, can't outrange (and only barely out damage in a handful of cases) fighter weapons; means that Destoryers don't have any option but to get in close, since that pea shooter of a main battery isn't even going to tickle the shields on the I.
Well that's just wrong. You're simply not going to be able to convince me that all those Xenon destroyers (both K & I) which my Phoenix Vanguards eliminated in my last game just fell apart all by themselves & not as a result of my destroyers main guns. Mostly they were engaging the enemy at around 7-9km (guns modded for extended projectile lifetime/speed) &, aside from a few instances where a pilot got too enthusiastic & had to be ordered back to the firing line, their turrets didn't fire at all. It's obvious you've never actually tried this yourself. Those man guns do far more than tickle - every time a shot lands a noticeable chunk of shields or hull is eliminated. Get a bunch of destroyers together (had 8 by the end of that game) & their main guns can demolish a Xenon capital in a remarkably short amount of time.
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Sandalpocalypse
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by Sandalpocalypse »

having 100 S on a ship with 8 docking bays would be irritating and bad

'so add more docking buys' you say

or you could just buy a second carrier, nothing is stopping you, they arnt expensive
Irrational factors are clearly at work.
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by Angsaar »

Carriers stats are mostly fine as they are. It's a repair dock on thrusters not a ship of the line, it's their role to be out of harm's way.

Ship storage capacity is also fine for the size, a carrier needs to house not just hangar space but repair shops, spare parts stores/assemblers, all sorts of internal sorting and delivery corridors and rooms.

And I won' even mention the size of the caffeteria! Who needs life support systems if a couple hundred people run out of coffee in space? There would be just murder.

Also, as pointed already, we don't need obnoxiously long subordinate docking times, just use them in pairs.
cool_lad
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by cool_lad »

More than anything, carriers need that capacity to be commensurate to their size and cost. The capacity is presently far too low for their size.
Actually looks about right to me when the volume of the docking bays (particularly M docks) is added up, as rough approximation of the internal volume that would be needed to store each ship.
You do realise that we're talking about a Carrier, right; 2Km long, actually bigger than a lot of real mountains. S ships are about the size of most modern military aircraft, being at the most 10 to 15m across at their largest/longest; decidedly smaller than their docking bays and even then, a modern aircraft carrier (which is tiny in comparison to even L sized ships) can comfortably carry 80 to 90 of those.

40 S ships is nowhere near close to the sort of storage that such a ship can or should have. Even if one were to lay these single file across a single arm of the colossus, and presume that each takes up about the same space as a docking bay (a rather massive presumtion that disregards any considerations of storage), we would still be able to fit well over 50 of those in the 1Km plus length of a single arm of the Colossus. And that's if we're only placing them single file on only one single arm and nowhere else.

Leave the entire ship; the storage capacity is too low for a single arm of the ship. The thing is a mountain sized ship with the storage capacity of a small car park.
The simple fact is that the carrier capacity is beyond ridiculous in just how low it is compared to the size of the ship, which basically makes the carrier a massive liability in practice, since it's a massive pile of empty space just sitting there and eating shots from the enemy, offering a rather pathetic amount of storage space, nothing in the way of weapons and little else otherwise.
If your carriers EVER get shot at, or need to fire at enemy ships, you're using them wrong. Carriers should be kept WAY at the back, several 10's of km from any possibility of getting involved in the fight.
This does raise the very troubling question of what exactly the Carrier is doing anyways; since the Auxiliary, as per this notion, does everything the Carrier does and more, and at a lower price to boot.

Here's the simple truth; the carrier is heavily armoured and shielded, and sacrifices much of the repair ability of the fleet auxiliary, and can only service M and S class vessels. If it isn't offering any combat ability or added utility for that (not to mention the added price), then the ship is quite literally trash and has no purpose, since the fleet Auxiliary already exists and does more at a lower price.

The storage and ability in combat aren't so much conveniences as reasons for the ship to actually exist.
As for the destroyers vs the Xenon I. The Xenon I is large enough to occupy a significant portion of a fighter's weapon range. And since this game seems to have a rule where turrets, no matter how much larger, can't outrange (and only barely out damage in a handful of cases) fighter weapons; means that Destoryers don't have any option but to get in close, since that pea shooter of a main battery isn't even going to tickle the shields on the I.
Well that's just wrong. You're simply not going to be able to convince me that all those Xenon destroyers (both K & I) which my Phoenix Vanguards eliminated in my last game just fell apart all by themselves & not as a result of my destroyers main guns. Mostly they were engaging the enemy at around 7-9km (guns modded for extended projectile lifetime/speed) &, aside from a few instances where a pilot got too enthusiastic & had to be ordered back to the firing line, their turrets didn't fire at all. It's obvious you've never actually tried this yourself. Those man guns do far more than tickle - every time a shot lands a noticeable chunk of shields or hull is eliminated. Get a bunch of destroyers together (had 8 by the end of that game) & their main guns can demolish a Xenon capital in a remarkably short amount of time.
Well, anecdotes aside, here is what I do know; the main batteries of the destroyer offer less firepower than a single turret. At a DPS of 1092 for both batteires combined, they are quite literally the worst L sized weapons on the ship; worse even then the L sized pulse turret, and for a destroyer that's going to be engaging other capital ships, woefully inadequate, with only their range and projectile speed to their name. So yes, I have given the guns a try, more than once, and, unless one swarms the Destroyers by bringing say 4 or 5 to the enemy's 1, the actual main guns aren't contributing much of anything to the cap ship fight, especially when compared to the likes of L turrets, missiles or even S class vessels.

I'll be blunt here; any weapon, however terrible and useless can do damage in sufficient numbers, but that doesn't make it a good weapon. The main batteries are objectively terrible; being only good for having the sort of range that the L turrets should have had as well. Being able to take down Xenon ships by swarming 8 of these is no arguement in their favour, any more than the fact that I have had better results using 10 or so pulse, heavy missile or torpedo armed Eclipses or Quasars against the same ships, and for a lower cost.
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by cool_lad »

Sandalpocalypse wrote: Mon, 9. Dec 19, 10:18 having 100 S on a ship with 8 docking bays would be irritating and bad

'so add more docking buys' you say

or you could just buy a second carrier, nothing is stopping you, they arnt expensive
Or you could stick as few craft in that carrier as you want and let it still have a at least semi believable storage rather than the present ridiculous low; so that the ship actually has a reason to exist over say the auxulliary and actually has stats commensurate to its size.

No one is stopping you from getting an extra carrier or putting fewer craft in one; but that is no arguement in favour of retaining their present ridiculously low armament or low storage vis a vis their size and cost.
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by Virtualaughing »

Every ship class has pros and cons which is GAMEPLAY. Destroyers needs big power generators to fuel big guns and strong engines.
X to X3 is MENU SUPERIOR!
I think Egosoft has already worked out our doom, because Xenon AI will reach the stars! :D
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by GCU Grey Area »

cool_lad wrote: Mon, 9. Dec 19, 19:13 You do realise that we're talking about a Carrier, right; 2Km long, actually bigger than a lot of real mountains. S ships are about the size of most modern military aircraft...
Still ignoring the M ships I see. Got to find space to fit 10 of them in there too. Don't like doing that myself - just feels a bit unrealistic, so tend to stick to maximum of 1 M in internal storage per M dock. Particularly so for Teladi carriers, if you look in detail at the area around the M docks there's just no room for more than that.
Being able to take down Xenon ships by swarming 8 of these is no arguement in their favour
In principle only need 1 - firepower of a single destroyer's main guns is sufficient to overcome shield regen rate, even in 3.0b (just tested), & can kill enemy capitals without entering turret range. Still not something I'd recommended though, since more than 1 makes it significantly quicker & easier, & X4 destroyers aren't particularly expensive vessels.
Warnoise
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by Warnoise »

I have called this long time ago. Destroyers main weapons require a both. Now they are a joke. Considering it's a weapon that requires positioning, aiming AND consumes energy, its damage is very low. Only useful in player hands to snipe turrets off some station or something. Even ships like Xenon K or I they can get within range by the time you made your 2nd shot and pepper your with their mage pulse turrets
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by wildragon55 »

I'm actually kind of disappointed that the destroyer batteries are literally shooting peas. Thought they would be a big giant beam like a solarbeam.
cool_lad
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by cool_lad »

wildragon55 wrote: Tue, 10. Dec 19, 09:11 I'm actually kind of disappointed that the destroyer batteries are literally shooting peas. Thought they would be a big giant beam like a solarbeam.
Well, they're either really badly scaled pulse lasers, or even worse scaled Plasma.

I'm not really sure which one; their damage would match actual L sized pulses, but the RoF and projectile size seem more like Plasma.

And since there's only one kind of Main Battery, and no actual L weapons, we seem to have a right and proper problem there.
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by GCU Grey Area »

cool_lad wrote: Thu, 12. Dec 19, 11:41 their damage would match actual L sized pulses, but the RoF and projectile size seem more like Plasma.
Think they're essentially M2 Plasma with about 1.2km extra range, 5x projectile speed & about 7% of the heat buildup.
Personally find those characteristics sufficiently useful that I always prefer to use a destroyer rather than any other ship class when hunting capitals.
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Re: Carriers need more ship storage (and other suggestions for them)

Post by cool_lad »

GCU Grey Area wrote: Thu, 12. Dec 19, 14:27
cool_lad wrote: Thu, 12. Dec 19, 11:41 their damage would match actual L sized pulses, but the RoF and projectile size seem more like Plasma.
Think they're essentially M2 Plasma with about 1.2km extra range, 5x projectile speed & about 7% of the heat buildup.
Personally find those characteristics sufficiently useful that I always prefer to use a destroyer rather than any other ship class when hunting capitals.
Their 3 round burst works like a pusle laser, the projectile speed and DPS scaling also seems consistent with a L sized pulse laser.

They would be really nice on a turret where they could keep plugging away without needing to be fired, but who actually uses Pulse lasers as the main weapon against a capital ship?

On the other hand, weapons like Beams don't work out on turrets since their accurate high damage fire messes up fighters. Those are what would work great on the L battery slot; both as a general proposition that we need more weapon diversity and as a much better weapon for actual use by the player.

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