XRebirth vs X4 Foundations

[radcapricorn]

In no way Rebirth required you to scan a station, let alone scan it to 100%. You could do it for extra benefits, if you wanted to. Just like in X4. But no, let's write a mini-novel about how it was bad, when it wasn't...

[bignick217]

big mistakes IMHO, what makes every X game great is mods and people should use them

I consider them integral part of the game

The charm of X games is versatile gameplay and that versatility increases even more with mods

Well, when I'm giving an opinion of a game, I'm giving my opinion of the game. Not what the mods turn it into. If I were to give an opinion of Sins of a Solar empire, I wouldn't give my opinion by describing elements of Star Trek Armada III. That's a mod. If I want to give an opinion about a mod, I will talk about a mod. The way I see it, a mod should compliment and improve gameplay, but it shouldn't be used to fix gameplay in order to give a game a higher score. That's not the way it works. XRebirth as it stood was not a good game. If mods made the game much better that's great and I applaud the community for their hard work and contributions. But it's not realistic nor acceptable to tell someone that it's their fault the game was crap because they didn't use mods made by the community to fix the mess made by the developers. That's a ridiculous assertion in my opinion. Again, I love mods and the community that makes them, but they're not an excuse that can be used to absolve a bad game.

and btw you didn't need to scan stations

Well I did try to get a trading agent without scanning the station and it wouldn't let me. So if there was another way, I never found it and the game never told me of any other option. Not that the game ever told me about trade agents to begin with. I had to find that one out on the community websites. Again, this just goes back to my point about just how bad the communication is between the game and the player.

In no way Rebirth required you to scan a station, let alone scan it to 100%. You could do it for extra benefits, if you wanted to. Just like in X4. But no, let's write a mini-novel about how it was bad, when it wasn't...

1: Don't do that. You don't get to tell me or complain about how much or how little I write. You can choose to read it or not. You can contest a point or not. You can discuss points you either agree with or not. But you don't get to dictate to me about how much I write. So you can keep comments like that to yourself because I'm not interested in your opinions about how I write nor how I choose convey information. As for declaring it's not a bad game. That's you're opinion. My opinion obviously differs.

It's amazing there's so many people repeatedly going "You didn't need to scan stations", yet not one of you has mentioned even one alternative. One alternative to scanning in game that didn't require a mod. It's so good to see people with so much more knowledge than me about a game I sunk 224 hours and 52 minutes in, yet none of you seem to be willing to impart this invaluable information on me.

[Buzz2005]

that mode did improve the game, you didn't have to scan every module, there it's improved

you could land on a station and play that awful minigame with the people until you get one to be a trade agent

but again oh wonderful mods

[Hector0x]

you could land on a station and play that awful minigame with the people until you get one to be a trade agent

And they dropped intellectual lines such as:

"With your chat-up skills we could get really close!"

"I'm glad our chat was so productive. I like you!"

Going down this interacting-with-real-people-direction binds a lot of resources. So much development time could've been saved if they solely focused on improving space environments and just used a 2D drawing style for npc portraits and station interiors like bars, corridors and such.

[radcapricorn]

1: Don't do that. You don't get to tell me or complain about how much or how little I write. You can choose to read it or not. You can contest a point or not. You can discuss points you either agree with or not. But you don't get to dictate to me about how much I write. So you can keep comments like that to yourself because I'm not interested in your opinions about how I write nor how I choose convey information.

I'm not telling you what or what not to write. I'm telling you that your complaint is baseless, no matter how hard you wish it not to be so, or how much you write about it. I.e. you're posting incorrect information, either intentionally or because you misunderstand something. Why is it so difficult?..

As for declaring it's not a bad game. That's you're opinion. My opinion obviously differs.

Ahem. I'm "declaring" that scanning wasn't as bad as you're trying to make it out, because it was entirely optional. Paragraphs. They serve a purpose.

It's amazing there's so many people repeatedly going "You didn't need to scan stations", yet not one of you has mentioned even one alternative. One alternative to scanning in game that didn't require a mod.

What alternative? You did not need to scan stations, period. As in, you were not forced to or required to. It was an entirely optional gameplay element. You didn't need to scan them to put a trade agent in, the silly mini game was enough (or getting one as a reward). If you didn't have a trade agent, you still didn't need to scan them to store all of their current trade offers, flying close with the basic trading computer installed was enough.

It's all absolutely the same in X4 as well. I mean, the only thing different in 4 is that you don't have to get as close to update current trade offers as in Rebirth.

Yes, you did need to scan storage/production modules if you wanted updates on those (heh, just like in X4 again). But unlike X3, you already had all known trade offers listed in trade computer anyway, so the stock information wasn't required for trading either. Thus scanning was entirely optional. If you wanted, you could scan for benefits:
- getting extras (discounts and commissions)
- monitoring stocks and production cycles for... not trading with the station

Neither was required to play the game or trade with stations. So, no, you didn't need to scan stations. At all. And that is why when someone is saying otherwise, it begs to question what else they might be misrepresenting.

It's so good to see people with so much more knowledge than me about a game I sunk 224 hours and 52 minutes in...

Yes, well, I have 426 hours, so I guess mine is longer. As if that means something...

[radcapricorn]

And they dropped intellectual lines such as:
"With your chat-up skills we could get really close!"
"I'm glad our chat was so productive. I like you!"

As if Ren's responses were any different. "Guess what? Nopileos was Teladi!". You don't say, Ren, you don't say... Nice chat. NOT!

Going down this interacting-with-real-people-direction binds a lot of resources...

Yeah, the thing that bothers me ever since, I guess, Bethesda's Oblivion, is that while trying to "create the living breathing world", developers don't pay as much attention to player's perspective. Especially in open-ended games. Skyrim's "arrow in the knee" didn't become a meme because it's a silly line (well ok, maybe a little bit). It became a meme because nearly every single guard was apparently afflicted by that condition, and they all felt compelled to tell you about it. Same goes for chats and the minigames in Rebirth: once is amusing, twice is questionable, a hundred times is (at best) irritating. Rebirth's living breathing universe is apparently inhabited by arrogant, uneducated, racist a$$holes, who stand around all day long doing absolutely nothing, while complaining they have home and family to get back to. And most of them got their "jobs" via affirmative action, because how else could one explain how a ship technician has no idea about how boosters and jumpdrives work?

[bignick217]

1: Don't do that. You don't get to tell me or complain about how much or how little I write. You can choose to read it or not. You can contest a point or not. You can discuss points you either agree with or not. But you don't get to dictate to me about how much I write. So you can keep comments like that to yourself because I'm not interested in your opinions about how I write nor how I choose convey information.

I'm not telling you what or what not to write. I'm telling you that your complaint is baseless, no matter how hard you wish it not to be so, or how much you write about it. I.e. you're posting incorrect information, either intentionally or because you misunderstand something. Why is it so difficult?..

And why is it so difficult for you to talk to me with at least a little bit of F'n respect or decency. Seriously, what the hell can possibly justify the sheer level of hostility you're directing towards me?

As for declaring it's not a bad game. That's you're opinion. My opinion obviously differs.

Ahem. I'm "declaring" that scanning wasn't as bad as you're trying to make it out, because it was entirely optional. Paragraphs. They serve a purpose.

And you again with the BS about my writing. What are you? A grammar Nazi? Is it possible for you to discuss any point of opposition without resorting to insults and jabs?

It's amazing there's so many people repeatedly going "You didn't need to scan stations", yet not one of you has mentioned even one alternative. One alternative to scanning in game that didn't require a mod.

What alternative? You did not need to scan stations, period. As in, you were not forced to or required to. It was an entirely optional gameplay element. You didn't need to scan them to put a trade agent in, the silly mini game was enough (or getting one as a reward). If you didn't have a trade agent, you still didn't need to scan them to store all of their current trade offers, flying close with the basic trading computer installed was enough.

As mentioned in a previous post, this was not my experience. Because I actually tried to hire a trade agent without scanning the station first and it wouldn't let me. The option to hire trade agent was literally greyed out. And yes, I made sure the person I was trying to hire was an inventory seller. If this was not supposed to happen, then I don't know why it wouldn't let me hire the trade agent. All I know is when I tried to hire the agent without scanning the station first, it wouldn't let me and literally greyed out the option. But after I scanned the station, it did. Maybe it was a bug that happened in that instance. Maybe I missed something else, I don't know. But that was my experience. Because believe me, if I had found a way to get to trade offers without having to scan every station, I would've taken it in a heartbeat.

It's all absolutely the same in X4 as well. I mean, the only thing different in 4 is that you don't have to get as close to update current trade offers as in Rebirth.

I'm sorry but no. In X4 I have not been scanning down all stations and I have yet to find a station that won't tell me it's current stock levels without scanning. I can see their stock and relative levels on the map.

Yes, you did need to scan storage/production modules if you wanted updates on those (heh, just like in X4 again). But unlike X3, you already had all known trade offers listed in trade computer anyway, so the stock information wasn't required for trading either. Thus scanning was entirely optional.

^(Bold and Underlined) This, is probably a fair point that I had not considered while playing. But you have to bare in mind how long I've been playing X games. In every previous game, I had always relied on relative stock levels for determining who to sell to because it was far easier to look for low stock levels (which always equated to high sales prices) than it was to memorize the relative high/low prices for every single ware in the game. That was 4 games back to back that all had you rely heavily on stock levels as your guide for who to sell to. We never had a centralized trade offer sheet. So because of those experiences my first gut instinct was to get access to all of the stock levels for every station as a matter of course. I hadn't properly considered nor realized that it was no longer necessary for most trades until now. If I had realized it, I would've focused on only getting the stock levels of critical stations such as the component factories needed for building ships (because shipyards were always running out of supplies). But even if I had realized that, that still doesn't explain why I couldn't actually hire a trade agent without having first scanned down the station. Again, it could've been a bug or something I missed. The point is I don't know. But even with that, I still think XRebirth relied too heavily on scanning. But admittedly, it may not have been as entirely necessary as I originally believed.

It's so good to see people with so much more knowledge than me about a game I sunk 224 hours and 52 minutes in...

Yes, well, I have 426 hours, so I guess mine is longer. As if that means something...

And I suppose the fact that you have more hours than me in game automatically makes any point I make wrong and every point you make right? You do realize that I made a lot more points about a lot more aspects of the game than just scanning right? Oh that's right, you don't because you're the one who said he read up to the part about scanning and then automatically "dismissed" everything else in my post... Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that I wasn't some noob who only played 1 hour and then proceeded to complain without ever having actually tried. That even with that many hours played, at no point did the game ever offer me nor advise me of a better alternative to scanning.


I'm going to make one last attempt to lay everything down on the line. I am perfectly willing to discuss any point I make that you contest, agree or disagree with. I am perfectly willing reconsider and re-assess any view I have on the game in light of new information or considerations I had not previously considered. But I am not willing to interact with you nor anyone else if you are not going to at least talk to me in a respectful manner. The hostility, rudeness and insulting manner in which you have interacted with me consistently thus far is unacceptable and I am not willing to tolerate nor engage with that any further. You want to contest a point I made, by all means let's discuss it. Just be forewarned that we're not going to agree on everything. That part is obvious and that's OK, but we damn well should be able discuss it in a mature and respectful manner. If you can't do that, then don't bother posting anything at all, because I won't be willing to listen anymore at that point.

[Gavrushka]

Never discuss politics, religion or X games with people who hold radically different viewpoints.

I don't want to see this thread locked as I (and I'm sure plenty of others) are enjoying it. In some arguments there's never enough common ground to do other than agree to disagree and walk away.

[spankahontis]

I think your post presupposes X4 is a game that's failed. - I accept there are plenty who feel it has and, in the main, they gave a shrug of their shoulders and left to play something they did enjoy, perhaps revisiting the game after major updates.

Thing is, I *love* the game now. I love standing on the bridge of a huge freighter as it goes on its way. I'll administer my empire, maybe even read a chapter of a book as I play. I found *my way* to enjoy the game, and others have found an alternative way to get a buzz out of it.

And others, such as you, haven't. I hope X5 works for you, but Egosoft are never going to abandon X4 until they've taken it as far as they can. It's what they do, and it's why I stick with them. - They listen, they adapt, they change and they improve. - Of course, that still won't make the game work for everyone.

I hope you drop back on occasion, maybe try again after 3.0 drops, but I'm sure you'll find an alternative game to play in the interim. - Enjoy whatever it is you settle on, and I hope you can see there are plenty of other people enjoying X4.

Adding mod ideas into X4 and improving on them was a show of Egosoft listening to player feedback.

Personally I don't like that Egosoft have taken the "Anthem" route of releasing a semi-finished game and using the Roadmap strategy to alleviate the concerns because they couldn't hold back release for a year; I wonder how X4 would be perceived if it came out this November with 3.0 and the Split inside rather than release it last December the way it was?
That I would say that they have not learned their lesson from Rebirth when you release something in a semi-functioning state.

I personally LOVE X4, the features it promises and continued direction towards a fully self-sustaining economy, without need of any outside "God Engine" to help prop it up. A great step forward towards that.. Still lots to be done but compared to X3? It's a great improvement, you have to have the blinkers on to not think it's improved on this aspect.
The War Mechanics.. Which looks to be working now? Well at least when it comes to Stations being destroyable (Maybe other bugs still need fixing), but it's great to see the War Updates constantly changing.

3. Okay, I will rephrase this one because I get what you are saying, but my concern is a bit more complicated. Previous X games had such docking ports that would support ships flying directly at them. I do understand that this elevator-type docking was always a favourite with Egosoft, dating back to X-BtF however they only existed in cutscenes or without actual functionality (X3 trading docks).
Right now, if you wanted to create a ship with internal docking bays, it would be required to be quite tall, so that NPC ships don't clip into the hull. So that means that no narrow docks we had earlier. Here's this remake of the X2 Centaur corvette. It even has an S-class docking port in its belly where it was intended to be in the original vision. Guess where ships approach it to land in it? Well, not from the back, I can tell you that.
So again, it's not that it would be impossible to pull off internal hangars for ships. It's just that the current docking approach doesn't support any direction, other than "from above".

If anything? I find it makes the potential to add new rooms to visit more simpler for modders to bring to life witjhout having to worry about clipping it to an existing room structure.
Want to go to the Hydroponics Lab? Take the Lift.
The Casino? Take the Lift.
The Gift Shop? Take the Lift.
The Airlocks (Where Little Suzie's corpse lies)? Take the Lift.

Egosoft really need to make special modules that allow for new rooms to visit.
I'd love for that to be tied to a civilian economy, away from the War Economy.

[Buzz2005]

Why do people assume that Ego had like a choice to develop the game to 3.0 and split DLC and then release it but they went no screw it lets just release it early

they have dead lines and finances to worry about and I'm sure that that was the best they could do

[chew-ie]

Why do people assume that Ego had like a choice to develop the game to 3.0 and split DLC and then release it but they went no screw it lets just release it early

they have dead lines and finances to worry about and I'm sure that that was the best they could do

Because .... people.

[spankahontis]

Why do people assume that Ego had like a choice to develop the game to 3.0 and split DLC and then release it but they went no screw it lets just release it early

they have dead lines and finances to worry about and I'm sure that that was the best they could do

Then they could mention that, people would understand? We'd at least have closure that this was the reason.

But they don't do that, they leave us in the dark.. So what are we to do but assume that they released it on some profit cycle rather than release it when they felt confident that it was ready for general release?

releasing something in an unfinished state because they had no time isn't really a valid excuse, it's actually quite damaging to the consumer to buy a defective product.

[spankahontis]

Well, when I'm giving an opinion of a game, I'm giving my opinion of the game. Not what the mods turn it into. If I were to give an opinion of Sins of a Solar empire, I wouldn't give my opinion by describing elements of Star Trek Armada III. That's a mod. If I want to give an opinion about a mod, I will talk about a mod. The way I see it, a mod should compliment and improve gameplay, but it shouldn't be used to fix gameplay in order to give a game a higher score. That's not the way it works. XRebirth as it stood was not a good game. If mods made the game much better that's great and I applaud the community for their hard work and contributions. But it's not realistic nor acceptable to tell someone that it's their fault the game was crap because they didn't use mods made by the community to fix the mess made by the developers. That's a ridiculous assertion in my opinion. Again, I love mods and the community that makes them, but they're not an excuse that can be used to absolve a bad game.

Number of hours I spent in X:Rebirth.. 2769, so I have to totally disagree with you on that.
After Home of Light Expansion was released, that was the cherry on the cake for this game. I've never gotten close to that many hours with X3.

I was totally onboard with Egosofts message to make the economy more self-sustaining.. Sadly it didn't go entirely to plan. But it was still better than X3 in that regard. Scanning stations was entirely the choice of the player, all you got was discounts and unlocked missions; nothing really to grumble about.
To be able to walk around a station, sure they didn't think that far ahead with that, but the potential to take trading, NPC engagement, exploration, modding etc. to whole new level was there; it unlocked so much potential for the future.

Once you've played the game a few times without mods then in order to play it you need mods.. Skyrim is my most favourite game of all time but I simply can't play it anymore without mods.
Doesn't make it a crap game, it just means the game is predictable, all games get predictable after a while. Modding is an integral part of the gaming experience and if the game has a weak modding community? Then the game will fail in it's longevity.
I still play X:com: Enemy Within thanks to the Long War mod, but it wouldn't exist without the core game, people fail to see the symbiotic relationship between both the Vanilla game and the mods themselves, they're good because the vanilla game gave them the codes needed to make it good.
No game designer is going to make a game were modders are gonna scratch their Head and think "This game is too perfect to Mod".
I got substantial amounts of time out of Rebirth in vanilla, all games get boring after a while.. That doesn't make X:Rebirth a bad game.
Some of us actually like Rebirth 4.5, not 1.0 or 2.5 etc. In it's finished state, Rebirth is a top class game.
I gave up seeing reason to those that still hang onto the notion that it's a detestable game.. They had a point post 2.5!!
But it's a completely different beast now, time to reassess your feelings.

[radcapricorn]

And why is it so difficult for you to talk to me with at least a little bit of F'n respect or decency. Seriously, what the hell can possibly justify the sheer level of hostility you're directing towards me?

Zero hostility here, wherever did you get that idea from? You wrote something untrue, I challenged you on that. More than that, you made a big deal out of scanning specifically, as you talked about it at considerable length, twice. These are just cold facts, nothing to be offended about; we all make mistakes. But whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Ahem. I'm "declaring" that scanning wasn't as bad as you're trying to make it out, because it was entirely optional. Paragraphs. They serve a purpose.

And you again with the BS about my writing. What are you? A grammar Nazi? Is it possible for you to discuss any point of opposition without resorting to insults and jabs?

Um, that "BS" was about my writing. Or, if you wish, about your reading. Regardless, I was talking about my paragraphs. I said "it wasn't bad" referring to scanning, not the game on the whole. As in, in the same paragraph. You then proceeded to claim that I was talking about the game on the whole. You did write an opus about how it (i.e. scanning) was bad, when it wasn't. That's what I was talking about. In other words, you put a lot of effort into expressing something that is not true. Why does this observation offend you so?.. And just to clarify since you're being overly literal: no, not your whole post is the "opus" I'm referring to; yes, you did not talk only about scanning, but the parts about scanning are quite extensive on their own; they stand out, presumably because this was a big deal for you. There's nothing wrong with being verbose. Being verbose and wrong, that's another story. Especially on a public forum. I hope I shouldn't justify that as well.

...I actually tried to hire a trade agent without scanning the station first and it wouldn't let me...

The two are unrelated. Why it didn't let you hire that specific NPC, I don't know. What I do know is that scanning/no scanning has nothing to do with it. Usually the option is grayed out if you already have an agent, or if that person is temporary. Other than that, I've no idea and won't speculate.

It's all absolutely the same in X4 as well. I mean, the only thing different in 4 is that you don't have to get as close to update current trade offers as in Rebirth.

I'm sorry but no. In X4 I have not been scanning down all stations and I have yet to find a station that won't tell me it's current stock levels without scanning. I can see their stock and relative levels on the map.

Here we go again. I'm sorry but yes. This is how an ALI shipyard looks on the map just after starting a new game:

Note that you don't have access to storage or pretty much any other information. It's all "???". In order to get all those info items to expand and show you storage levels, etc., you absolutely have to fly around the station and scan it. Now, the point I'm fuzzy on is whether you have to scan the relevant modules specifically (like in Rebirth), or you just need to get the scan up to a certain percentage. If it's just percentage, then that's another improvement in X4's favor, to be sure. Regardless, it's the same for any other station as well, not just a shipyard: no scanning - no info.

Pretty much the only thing you get out of it from the get go is trade offer updates, because it's currently in sensor range of your asset (i.e. starting ship). That's the improvement over Rebirth (don't need to all but kiss the station). Still, just like in Rebirth, that info would expire after a certain time unless you do something about it. We have more options (and more convenient options) in X4 in that regard, that's true. But the core behavior is the same: you lose the info unless you somehow update it.

But unlike X3, you already had all known trade offers listed in trade computer anyway, so the stock information wasn't required for trading either. Thus scanning was entirely optional.

^(Bold and Underlined) This, is probably a fair point that I had not considered while playing. But you have to bare in mind how long I've been playing X games. In every previous game, I had always relied on relative stock levels...

Yes, I absolutely agree, this was a confusing change for a veteran. So was, pretty much, most of the rest of the game.

...If I had realized it, I would've focused on only getting the stock levels of critical stations such as the component factories needed for building ships (because shipyards were always running out of supplies).

Which actually makes that aspect of scanning an interesting game mechanic (in Rebirth). Depending on how you play and what you play (i.e. campaign/free play), there might be a number of stations you're interested in, be it for trading or piracy. Or your memory of production chain might be fuzzy and you don't want to get out of the game to google it. Scanning will therefore, of course be desireable. Or there might be none of that at all, in which case scanning would be irrelevant. If you want extended info, the game expects you, the player, to invest something in return. In X3 that investment was minimal - one asset per sector and trading system extension in your own ship. In Rebirth, instead, that investment is either time and risk being policed if you approach with contraband in pockets, or the same plus some amount of money (for purchasing an (illegal) drone which was required to fully scan modules on certain high-tech stations). In fact you could even get your money back or make a profit out of it, because you could get a station scanning mission. Anyway, in no way this was forced on you, as none of that extra information was necessary for progressing in the game.

But even if I had realized that, that still doesn't explain why I couldn't actually hire a trade agent without having first scanned down the station. Again, it could've been a bug or something I missed. The point is I don't know.

Just consider that the inability to hire that person actually had nothing to do with scanning. Like, a third of your original post would vanish (no, I didn't count the letters, feel free to point out how it wasn't at all a third; that's what it feels like though).

But even with that, I still think XRebirth relied too heavily on scanning...

That's the thing. It didn't rely on it. At all. In your original post, you make a big deal out of how foul it was to have to do it. Of course it would've been foul if you had to. But you didn't have to. So I guess you spent 200+ hours hating something that wasn't really there.

It's so good to see people with so much more knowledge than me about a game I sunk 224 hours and 52 minutes in...

Yes, well, I have 426 hours, so I guess mine is longer. As if that means something...

And I suppose the fact that you have more hours than me in game automatically makes any point I make wrong and every point you make right?

No. That last sentence, it's important, you know (sorry, this time it's definitely about your reading). Playtime is all but meaningless. Especially when you're basing your argument on your own misconception.

You do realize that I made a lot more points about a lot more aspects of the game than just scanning right? Oh that's right, you don't because you're the one who said he read up to the part about scanning and then automatically "dismissed" everything else in my post...

Yes, I did say that. Scanning was one of your key bashing points, whether you intended so or not. There were others, to be sure, but that one stands out, you spent quite a bit more time trying to make that point than anything else. And... it was wrong. Which, in turn, makes me question how well were you familiar with other aspects of the game, which, to boot, you comparatively glossed over, considering how much you wrote about scanning. Comparatively. No, you didn't really gloss over them. But comparatively, yes you did.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that I wasn't some noob who only played 1 hour and then proceeded to complain without ever having actually tried. That even with that many hours played, at no point did the game ever offer me nor advise me of a better alternative to scanning.

You wanted info - you scanned. You didn't want it - you didn't scan. Those were the player's options in the game. Assuming either was required is the player's fault, not the game's. I still don't get what other alternative you need. Scanning was a way to get extended information about a station. Just like there was a way to get that in previous games. They were just different ways, is all. Either way, that information isn't required for progressing in the game, and is considerably less useful overall than in previous games, but may be desirable for a given player in a given game.

I'm going to make one last attempt to lay everything down on the line. I am perfectly willing to discuss any point I make that you contest, agree or disagree with. I am perfectly willing reconsider and re-assess any view I have on the game in light of new information or considerations I had not previously considered. But I am not willing to interact with you nor anyone else if you are not going to at least talk to me in a respectful manner. The hostility, rudeness and insulting manner in which you have interacted with me consistently thus far is unacceptable and I am not willing to tolerate nor engage with that any further.

Then please consider reading what is said, not reading something into it that isn't there. I haven't insulted you, in fact I haven't attacked your person in any way at all. You wrote an extensive post on a public forum which one (i.e. me) chose to spend time to read, didn't take well to obvious critique, and outright demanded of me to change my tone, and yet I'm the hostile one here? I'm sorry, but if you've taken offense, that was your choice, not mine.

[Buzz2005]

Why do people assume that Ego had like a choice to develop the game to 3.0 and split DLC and then release it but they went no screw it lets just release it early

they have dead lines and finances to worry about and I'm sure that that was the best they could do

Then they could mention that, people would understand? We'd at least have closure that this was the reason.

But they don't do that, they leave us in the dark.. So what are we to do but assume that they released it on some profit cycle rather than release it when they felt confident that it was ready for general release?

releasing something in an unfinished state because they had no time isn't really a valid excuse, it's actually quite damaging to the consumer to buy a defective product.

Think of this from a business viewpoint, would you buy it if they did
Is any company doing this?
Example when a ISP guy calls you and tries to sell you their internet connection or whatever do they go well it might sometimes not work, or the bandwidth will not be always what was sold
I have an example from mine line of work, satelite dish installer, they dont tell costumers hey when the weather is bad you wont have a picture (cheap satellite and weak signal)
they would not sell anything to anyone

examples are numerous, all those commercials on tv, basically all lies and sugarcoating

[Falcrack]

Note that you don't have access to storage or pretty much any other information. It's all "???". In order to get all those info items to expand and show you storage levels, etc., you absolutely have to fly around the station and scan it. Now, the point I'm fuzzy on is whether you have to scan the relevant modules specifically (like in Rebirth), or you just need to get the scan up to a certain percentage. If it's just percentage, then that's another improvement in X4's favor, to be sure. Regardless, it's the same for any other station as well, not just a shipyard: no scanning - no info.

Scan a single storage module, and you will then have access to the storage levels on the shipyard.

[radcapricorn]

Scan a single storage module, and you will then have access to the storage levels on the shipyard.

Hmm... interesting. Didn't update when I scanned just one storage module. I had to like scan all three, the cradle, the dock, and one of the crosses. Which is why I can't definitively claim what's required.

[tomchk]

Scanning in x4 is pretty nice, I think. Glad they made it less burdensome, although I had some fun with it in X:R.

[spankahontis]

I'm a long time X player, with the first game that introduced me to the series being X2 The Threat. Ho boy, that game gave me nightmares of trawling through menus. Seriously, I'm not kidding. While learning to play that game, I had actual nightmares of being lost in it's menus lol. It was the steepest learning curve I had ever experienced in any game. But I absolutely loved that game. With that said, X2 and x3 (which just an evolution of the X2's menu system, but was mostly the same), menus were actually extremely competent. There were a few options that were needlessly buried and could only be accessed in a very specific way (such as accessing the ships auto-aiming setting only being accessible by interfacing with the ships settings via the map and couldn't be accessed directly like a lot of other settings), but for the most part, the menus were very competent and easy to use. While there was a lot to take on when learning to play, everything was laid out mostly in an easy to understand and intuitive manner. On top of that, the tutorial system in X2 actually did a very good job of explaining how to play the game and navigate the menus and those lessons were "mostly" translatable through the proceeding X3 games.

I'd never heard of X Games until X3 Reunion, before that I played Frontier: Elite II, Empire building was something I never saw before.
Elite 2 was purely Bounty Hunter, Assassin, Trader. You bought the biggest ship and then what?
I wanted to see how far I could get in uncharted space before the parts in my ship started breaking down and I was stuck in the middle of nowhere and had to reload an old save.
The fight mechanics were terrible, the stupid 1 hit-kill Smart bombs they would always drop was a fun-killer, every trade run was like fighting a war to reach the destination, scores of Pirates waiting for you.
So seeing what X3 was capable off, was revolutionary in my Eyes.

XRebirth on the other hand. Changed almost everything and it's "tutorial" or introduction system was absolutely terrible. I get what they were trying to do. They were trying to reduce the sheer amount of menus that were traditionally needed in order to play the game. But the way they went about it was terrible. XRebirth (as much as there were a few aspects of it that I actually really liked) got so many things wrong. I loved the new stations, but the fact that you were forced to individually scan every fricken module on every fricken station just so you could see what they sold and what their stock levels were (which only lasted so long as you were in range) was so mind numbingly tedious, monotonous, time consuming and boring that I got to a point where I would dread, actually dread finding a new station. Seriously, I had literally just finished scanning down every station in Omicron Lyrae and then just jumped into to Maelstrom for the first time and saw that absolutely massive food station and my first thought was not "oooh wow, that's beautiful!". Nope, it was actually "Oh crap... Am I going to have to scan that?". I'm not kidding, I actually said that out loud and my partner laughed at me. Yeah, thanks for the sympathy hun.

Menu in X3 was terrible though, simple case of "Get Good"; but if you want to sell a game to new players, they don't want to be bogged down by tedious trial and error learning and the Tutorial was terrible to boot.
Seriously I'm still scratching me Head why people complain about Rebirth's UI? It was simplified, it was tidy, had hotkey support.
Tutorial (If you played the Ren Otani Campaign) was better in my Eyes to X3's Campaign tutorial by a long shot.
The Bugs on release generally gave people the sense of the bad tutorial as allot of the tutorial was effected by bugs so following the tutorial and you didn't get what it was saying can be seen as frustrating and show a bad impression on the tutorial.
Once the bugs got squashed, the tutorial was a joy to go through that was not invasive or in your face.. I really don't get why people are complaining? For the sake of complaining I guess?

You don't HAVE TO scan every station part, all you needed was to "smalltalk" an NPC into becoming a 'Trade Agent' to update the value change of that Station, that was it.. No need to scan every module unless you are looking for that HUGE discount?
Even so, you could get a small/medium trade discount after a few scans of the modules it's hardly ALL Station Parts. You have to be a serious Obsessive compulsive to want a full schematic of a Station, especially the Floating Meadows in Maelstrom, that's just serious obsessive levels given it's immense size.

When you make a feature so tedious, so integral to the gameplay that it eventually triggers the depression response in players, you've screwed up. Don't get me wrong. I had no problem with the concept of scanning down stations. I actually liked the idea...at first. But they just ran way too far with it and never questioned whether the fun factor of that mechanic would ever fade. Almost like they never actually played the game themselves. And I mean literally ask the question, hey this is pretty fun, let's keep it. But do you think players will still find it fun when we require players to scan literally thousands of modules just to play the game the way it's meant to played? By the time I finished the main storyline and the DLC opened up, the mere thought of having to scan anything in the new DLC's was so soul destroying at that point that I literally just turned off the game. Just threw my hands up in the air and said F*** this! I'm done! Which is a real shame, because I loved the new stations. I thought they were beautiful. Not much variation between them because they were all essentially Argon, but they were gorgeous.

Like I said you don't need to have a 100% Scan of a Station to get that discount, crisis averted!!
Also if you want to know what they are short of? You scan their storage containers.
And of course? Get an NPC to agree to be your Trade Agent for that station. That way you will always have an up-to-date price of the wares they buy and sell.
It's not the crisis people make it out to be and of course.. mods that let you scan the whole station with one fly by.
Lack of race assets was a problem for me and when you've explored a dozen so station interiors then you get the impression that it was all cookie cutter copies of each other. But then the amount of time to make every race station and to make the modules procedurally generated like XCOM 2 does by moving assets around the Battlemap.. Same Assets you recognize, but in a different position on the battle map, so you had no set strategy.
I wish Station interiors were done in a way that they clipped on each other and one corridor on one station might be a waiting room on the next, that it was done where the rooms were recognisable, but the position on the station was random. Give it some uncertainty.

But another shame came in the form of the station scan mode. I never really got to truly appreciate the beauty of these new stations, because I spent most of my time stuck in station scanning mode just to make it a little easier to scan down stations. So I spent most of my time looking at stations with these White, Blue, Green and Orange overlays. So you put station scanning in to kind of promote people to appreciate the depth and detail of your stations. But then you make it so tedious that you have to put a station scanner in just to make the process "bearable" (only for so long), then you ruin that depth and detail by covering all those beautiful modules in nasty color overlays just so you can see what you've already scanned and haven't scanned yet. Way to go! I F'n hated it!

Never was a problem for me, personally. It was to help the player differentiate between a defense module and a storage module.
Don't like it? Switch it off.

Tutorials in XRebirth were virtually non-existent. I'll give you an example. The speechcraft mini game. I went more than half of my playthrough having never done it, and never knowing how to actually do it. Why? Because XRebirth's idea of a tutorial for that gameplay mechanic was nothing more than a passing comment by your crew mate. "Hey, you can talk to them to find out more about them." That's it. I talked to so many people in that game, never playing this so-called mini game, because the game never bothered to tell me to wait for a random NPC to speak out as if they're already in a conversation and then try to talk to them in order to trigger the small talk option. It never said that. Do you have any idea how many YouTube videos I had to go through all with people going, yeah it's easy just do this and all of them leaving that one F'n detail out? It was only after I found out about Trading Agents and found a video of someone explaining how to get them I found a video where he actually left in the part where he was waiting for someone to speak in order to trigger the small talk. Finally, someone finally left that bit in and I was finally able to figure out not only how to do small talk, but also get trade agents on stations! Why was this not explained in the game? Why did so many people making videos about how to play this aspect of the game leave or cut out this critical detail. I was pissed that it took so long to find out such a small and apparently critical detail. But even with that, the small talk mechanic became just about as tedious as the whole station scanning mechanic because I ended up having to do it on every single station just so I could continual live trading updates for each station. So now my workload was already bad enough because I had to scan literally every module on every station, but now I also have to small talk someone on literally every station just so I keep getting active reading of their stock levels. I can not describe to you just how mind numbingly and frustratingly bored I became of this whole process. Believe me when I tell you that I gave XRebirth more than its fair shake at proving itself to me.

Shall we talk about boarding. How about the games idea of teaching boarding is to do one with only 8 marines. Doesn't bother to tell you that in a real boarding, you'll need a lot more than just 8 marines and even with a full load of marine you'll still need to take out the weapons and hardpoints in order to reduce it's defense value (doesn't even tell you that there's defense value at all), doesn't tell you how to look up your own marine boarding value. Nope, just makes you go through a story scripted event doing a boarding in a way that would never work with any other boarding anywhere else in the game. Another 20 websites and 7 or 8 YouTube videos to find out how to do boardings properly because all my boarding attempts were constantly failing and I couldn't understand why. Most of them told you about the defense value, but only 1 of them actually showed how to see your own attack value so you could use it to judge your chances of a successful boarding.

Are you sure you weren't playing the Freeplay Campaign? The Ren Otani Campaign WAS the tutorial in which is what it recommends you play before going into Freeplay.
It teaches you through Yisha on how to use the boosters, how to steer the ship, on what to do when ship is damaged, in using drones, in hiring crew, in making trades with freighters in how to board a ship; just because it didn't hold your Hand all the way doesn't make it a bad tutorial, it teaches you the basics, not how to exploit it.
I had NO problems with boarding after that tutorial, It taught me the basics and from that I got better on my own.
Besides, X Games are notorious for forcing players to go on the board to get help.. Nowt to be ashamed of, I've asked for hints and tips from fellow members (Especially from X3) when I get stuck.
X Games are notoriously complex, you learn alongside your fellow community member, there's youtube, you learn.
A non-issue to me, I never had the same problems as you and I consider myself a n00b.

These kinds of scenarios were constant in XRebirth tutorials and explanations. Important information completely neglected from being communicated to the player. Told something is there, but never being told how to actually do it. And most of the time, in nothing more than a "passing" comment that you would easily missed if you blinked or weren't paying full uncompromising attention to every word spoken and still not understand because "context" was a word that was completely alien to XRebirth's tutorial system. I'm not saying I need my hand held for every little thing, but if you want to tell me about something or tell me to do something, you should at least give me the context I need to understand what you're asking of me and how I can apply that information to practical use. A passing comment and nothing else is not good enough.

Well, that in itself is "holding your Hand".. It ONLY teaches you the basics, it was enough for me not to have the problems you had.
Boarding was a piece of piss, though I will agree on one problem I had and that was hacking stations.
It was easy explained how to Hack them, but if you were hacking a Station to steal goods from them and not be shot at in the process, that wasn't explained well enough.
But that wasn't just the tutorial per-see, but the way the Mechanics in general were designed to rob stations.
I can understand the logic that any security station would have counter-measures in place to stop it's property being stolen, but there must of been a simpler way to do it and make it look like a realistic space heist.
It was still fun when you could pull it off, the sense of achievement in performing a successful heist.

How about station building. Oh I loved this one. How about you select a station to build from the architect. It tells you everything you need to "build" the station, but doesn't tell you what you need to "operate" the station. No, you can only find out what you need to operate a station after you've actually built it. Seriously, on the station in the production area, you can click the little button next to a produced wares that tells you all the resources you need to make any given ware. But when you are talking to the architect deciding which station to build, it tells you what those stations make, but if you click that same button that you would click on real station to find out what you need to make said resource, on the architect it only gives you an encyclopedia description of the produced product itself. It will not tell you what you need to make said resource. Meaning, it's nearly impossible to plan ahead if you want to build all the links in a chain to producing a particular resource. Or identify hard to acquire resources that you may need to build additional stations to supply so you don't end up with a station that can't actually produce anything because you can't get the resources you need to get the production going. Who the hell missed that important piece of information to relay to the player. Even all the way in version 4.30 that information is amazingly, still not available in the game.

Again.. a mute point for me. Would it be nice to have these things? sure!
You could go on the Encyclopedia and find this out for yourself, sure it's not given to you on a silver plate but it's still there. The Ware, what it needs to be made?.. What Storage it requires?
Only thing I found tedious about Station Building was the inability to tell you an overall total of what you need to build the entire Station.
But I can live with that, it isn't a serious issue with me.
I got round this problem simply by having a fleet of ships that carried the materials it needed on demand, they would be full, I would attach them to the CV Ship and they would feed it the materials it needed to fully construct the entire Station.

How about not being able to assign crew to ships or stations directly. No, you had to land on every single ship or station every time and manually assign every crew member one by one. You could call them "back" without having to land, but you had to land to make any assignment. There was no way to just hire someone and tell them to go to a ship or station directly. Literally virtually everything in XRebirth was 100% manual. I get that they wanted to reduce the amount of menus in the game, but the sheer amount of micromanagement required in XRebirth compared to all the other games was mind boggling. It took so long to get anything done simply because of how many things had to be done manually from start to finish. Between the manual assignment of crew. The manual moving of resources via trade ships that all had limits to how many individual trades they could have queued. How you couldn't amend any orders on the fly, no you had to cancel all orders and start from scratch if you made a mistake.

Tedious? Yes, but wasn't enough to make me rage quit.
Mods dealt with this, I'd of liked Egosoft to of improved this element themselves.
I do agree with you that this was a very poor design choice. From a realism standpoint? It had me jaded.
Basically you look for staff and you ask them for their Resume cause you are interested in hiring them, yet they refuse to show you, as an employer? I'd say.. "You have something to hide, i'm going to hire someone else, I don't trust you.".
How the game handles that?.. Instead you have to find an associate of the NPC who you 'sweet talk' into showing you their friends Resume.
In what World does an owner of a company hire their staff like this?
"I need a job, but i'm not going to show you my Resume, can I have the job please".

Trade was fine to me, but was the case where X3 was better, but that was solely down to the Bonus mod that allowed you to programme a Ship to trade in specific sectors and specific wares using the Trade Logistics Software MK2.
A lack of Universal Trader was also a serious problem as seldom was there Universal Traders sent by the other Factions, when setting up in DeVries? This was a problem.

And I'm sorry, but I have to ask. Who's bright idea was it that in order for me to transfer wares I've produced or I already own automatically between my own player owned stations via my trading ships, that I have to give those stations my money so they can buy my own wares from me off my stations and sell my own wares to my own stations that need them? Why can't I just set up transfer ships like in previous games? Why am I buying my own wares from myself? Why am I selling my own wares to myself? Who the hell thought this was a good idea? Has the person who came up with this never heard of the concept of a colander being held over a bucket and pouring water into the colander? I spent way too much of my time just shifting money from the lower links of the chain back to the top links of the chain because the money just kept moving down the chain, wasting my time for something I shouldn't have to do in the first place. This was one aspect of XRebirth that just flat out dumbfounded me. I haven't built any stations yet in X4, but this is one thing I really hope is fixed in X4. Such a stupid oversight for a game so heavily reliant on the economic gameplay. Quite frankly, this particular issue was down right asinine.

Transferring wares in X3 was down to the Bonus Mod Pack, so it's the modders you want to be patting on the back for that one.
I've never seen a problem transferring wares, ship to ship it was pretty clunky, needed patches.
But i've not seen an issue or lost money transferring wares.
Not had any issues with X4 on this remark.. If anything, I've dropped prices for wares down to the bottom of the bar and they still came and deliver the building materials I need for rockbottom prices. Economy is hopefully better in 2.60, still early days yet.

Then there was ship refueling.... OK, I can understand an issue like this in version 1.0. I could even understand it in a couple versions after release. But for this issue to still be present in version 4.30, I just can't let that one go. I've lost several ships (capital ships) due to them all trying to refuel at the same time and them all fighting for the same spot. How was this never fixed? Did no one ever think to put a queue system in place for refueling stations to force ships to wait in line if another ship was already in the process of refueling?

XRebirth was chalk full of things like these. Issues on top of issues on top of issues. Lack of proper communication with the player. Lack of appropriate context given to the player. Extremely tedious mechanics forced on the player that more often than not hurt the gameplay rather than improving it. Excessive micromanagement that put even X3 Terran Conflict (or Albion Prelude) in very late games to absolute shame. And these are just the ones I remember intensely. It would not be a stretch by any means for me to say XRebirth was by far the worst X experience I've every played.

With that said, XRebirth is not without some positives. For one, as mentioned before, I absolutely loved the design of the new stations. They were beautiful, fun to build (although some stages took far too long to build), they were interesting and it was incredible to see them fire up for the first time and watch all the machinations and animations in full swing. I loved them. XRebirth's ship controls were among the best of any X game prior. Particularly it's mouse controls once you switched W and S to Full Forward and Full Reverse, kept A and D to strafe left and right, and changed SPACE to strafe up and CTRL to strafe down. I still wish I could map my control key to strafe down in X4. But I guess I'll just have to make due with the auto-hotkey program I'm using to remap/swap the Control and Alt keys on my keyboard.

I micro-managed allot more in X3 than I did in Rebirth, pretty much the same with X4. But who wants an entirely automated system where you do little?
Sure it's nice to streamline certain tediousness, but where do you draw the line where everything is done for you, it leaves you to do what? When you've explored everywhere, nowhere else to go and your empire is being run on it's own without you.
I like micro-managing, not too much though, but you streamline everything and you run out of things to do.. We don't want that either.

Problem with lack of refuelling is inherent in the mechanics of X:Rebirth, no expansion, invincible stations.. Again mods like CWIR turned Rebirth into a living breathing universe with the War Mechanics Egosoft promised and failed to deliver (Which X4 is the promise they've finally delivered on that front).

Lack of Hotkey support is definitely something I want to see Egosoft bring back. Accessing the sidebar menu in Rebirth was crisp, easily accessible and just a joy to use.

One thing I will disagree with you on, is the graphics in XRebirth were nowhere near as good as X4 or even any of the X3 games in a lot of regards. For one XRebirth was way too cartoonish in a lot of regards. Particularly on stations and inside the Skunk and even in space barring one or two locations. The stations external texturing was good though, but not as good as X4 or X3#. But X4, blows XRebirth out of the water when it comes to the graphics in space. Bear in mind that XRebirth gives a bit of false impression of scale because the play spaces in XRebirth were a lot smaller compared to X4. X4's play spaces are massive in comparison and as such can give the impression of everything being smaller by comparison. Although the station modules do seem a little smaller. I would argue however, that there are too many systems that are too similar to one another. I love that there are a lot more systems than in rebirth, but I really want to see a lot more variation between the overall look of systems and the backdrops/scene scapes like in the X3 series. Most of the systems in X4 are pretty, but I wouldn't call them particularly "memorable" like you would feel about systems in the X3 games. Such as that first time you entered the Home of Light system in X3 Terran Conflict. Or Kingdoms End. Or there was another system I can't remember the name of that had a particular nebula formation that was "rainbowish" in it's presentation. In contrast, X4 tends to reuse or segment the same systems a little too much resulting in a lot of systems looking or feeling too similar to one another. I'd like to see more variation between systems. Hell the sheer amount of variation between systems and the beauty of the various backdrops was one of the big things that attracted me to the X games in the first place. I remember I often used to just get in my ship and go exploring and take in the sights in the X3 games as a result. I'd really like to see Egosoft get a lot more creative on this front. I'd also like to see a lot more variation in the music in X4 as well.

I liked Rebirth in terms of Systems was for the lack of Systems it had, it made travelling into each System giving them plenty of distance to travel deep into each Sector; whereas X3 it was the case of 250+ different kinds of Space Wallpaper. You couldn't venture deep into a System, you couldn't travel from planet to planet, the System was greatly unexplored. flying from System to System in X3 just showed planets being reused, with a new lick of paint, a nebulae added here, a distant gas giant added there. DeVries was gorgeous, all the planets near the Sun to actually flying towards the Sun. Being able to travel around Home of Light and break away North through that Asteroid Field to find a Xenon installation at the other end.
X4 has kept some of that Rebirth charm, but it lacks the depth and lore/background that Rebirth poured into each System making them special, a case of size isn't everything.

The one area that XRebirth did extremely well on and I wish X4 would follow suit is the weapon animations. The XRebirth weapon animations were outstanding. And I absolutely loved the designs of the cap ships in XRebirth. The S and M size ship designs were terrible compared any other X game, but the Caps were gorgeous. Particularly the Taranis and Arwan. I like many, do think X4's cap ships are little underwhelming compared to XRebirth and especially compared to the X3 games. You just don't get the same sense of scale with cap ships in X4 that you got in any of the previous X games. As far as station interiors, sorry, but X4's got the win there. XRebirth's station interiors were really boring because they were all virtually identical barring a few minor variations here and there. And while X4 is similar in that regard, X4's stations feel far more "alive" in comparison due to how active they are. Which more than makes up for that small shortfall.

The weapons in Rebirth were pretty stale until the Teladi Outpost and Home of Light came out.
But I agree that the ships in Rebirth were lovely, especially the explosions they made. Why Egosoft got rid of the explosions from Rebirth I don't know? Bring them back!

[spankahontis]

Why do people assume that Ego had like a choice to develop the game to 3.0 and split DLC and then release it but they went no screw it lets just release it early

they have dead lines and finances to worry about and I'm sure that that was the best they could do

Then they could mention that, people would understand? We'd at least have closure that this was the reason.

But they don't do that, they leave us in the dark.. So what are we to do but assume that they released it on some profit cycle rather than release it when they felt confident that it was ready for general release?

releasing something in an unfinished state because they had no time isn't really a valid excuse, it's actually quite damaging to the consumer to buy a defective product.

Think of this from a business viewpoint, would you buy it if they did
Is any company doing this?
Example when a ISP guy calls you and tries to sell you their internet connection or whatever do they go well it might sometimes not work, or the bandwidth will not be always what was sold
I have an example from mine line of work, satelite dish installer, they dont tell costumers hey when the weather is bad you wont have a picture (cheap satellite and weak signal)
they would not sell anything to anyone

examples are numerous, all those commercials on tv, basically all lies and sugarcoating

You've just explained in a nutshell why I want to change my ISP.. Those very reasons, their hype of superfast speeds and the actual product you get are completely different.
At the moment I have no choice until an alternative to Virgin comes along.. American's are not so lucky as they refuse to compete.

And yet, bullshitting the customer is a sure-fied way to lose trust in that company permanently.
Positive Reputation is difficult to acquire and easy to lose.

Egosoft needs to learn to start trusting it's fan base, we're grown ups, we know how to accept the facts when given to us and how to measure the pros and cons. But hiding the truth under a veil of darkness and false promises is grounds for serious litigation.
For that reason I can see why they want to keep their practices secret, but it doesn't make it right.
That they can't be honest or show good intentions for doing it is sad.
I'd of supported Egosoft regardless, but if they keep selling me a defective product and use hype to win us over, how are they any better than EA or Ubisoft?
If the company needs to treat it's customers like uneducated peasants that simply "Wont understand" or lack any trust in their customers?

Do we really want to be throwing our money at it? I don't like secrecy.
After Rebirth, they need to be more forthcoming, X4's failure could be the final straw.