CPU & @GHz for 60+FPS

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KextV8
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Re: CPU & @GHz for 60+FPS

Post by KextV8 »

Scoob wrote: Fri, 7. Dec 18, 15:22 Just so everyone is aware, most tools for measuring CPU load don't really paint an accurate picture when HT is enabled.

With my 2600k @ 4.6ghz it looked like my CPU was averaging about 30% load over all threads, with three threads a fair bit busier than the others, one particularly heavy. So, my CPU, though somewhat more busy on a couple of threads, had ample capacity to spare, so it couldn't be a bottleneck, right? However, this is more down to the tool thinking it's got two full Cores to play with, not one core with some clever scheduling tech. If you temporarily disable HT, you'll see a much more accurate representation of how hard X4 pushes a CPU. for me, it's nearer 70% than 30% which is a huge difference.

HT/SMT can be great, allowing a single core to run dissimilar loads concurrently, or taking advantage of available processing power when an already running process is waiting for something - be it the result from another process, memory access etc. This results in pushing the actual single core harder or at least keeping it productive. A good tech. However, it really does seem to confuse monitoring tools. I personally use Process Explorer, it's pretty solid but misrepresents things similarly to Task Manager it seems.

It's often more realistic to ADD the load of threads 0 & 1, 2 & 3 etc. together to get an idea of the actual load on the underlying single Core. This might seem strange as, when stress testing for example, we see ALL threads 100% loaded. However, these are very specific workloads that are getting every single ounce of performance out of the CPU, using HT/SMT to its fullest. Game workloads rarely work this way. I think the only game I've tried which loaded ALL thread really to their limit was Crysis 2, that game really could leverage every bit of CPU power available.

I just wanted to mention this briefly, and not going into much detail, as, initially, I too though my CPU really wasn't being pushed as hard as it was. The game, for me, appears to run just as well with HT off as it does with it on. However, with it off, my CPU looks like it's working so much harder, due to how Process Explorer sees the work load and available threads.
It's complicated. What we see as CPU % is really more like 1-time spent idle rather that the work the CPU is actually doing.

So, say a process is running, and you are actually limited by memory access speed, you might see a higher number on utilization than what is actually going on. The process might show say 70% utilization for that core but in reality it's like 30% work 40% stalled waiting. In comes hyper threading and other techniques that allow the computer to access that stalled percent to work on other unrelated tasks instead of leaving it to just wait.

If we consider the total available CPU % as a pie, then hyperthreading is basically stopping things from saving pieces of pie for later and letting it be first come first serve instead. With HT, you can do more(sometimes) with the same available resources so it makes your CPU utilization appear lower.

What's happening isnt that the CPU can't do the work, it's that memory and bus speeds can't feed the CPU fast enough. Unfortunately, since you and I are dealing with older mobos and ram due to compatibility with our CPUs, there isnt anything we can do about it. But, fortunately, we don't really need to either, since we are getting satisfactory performance :)
Last edited by KextV8 on Fri, 7. Dec 18, 16:47, edited 1 time in total.
Gavrushka
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Re: CPU & @GHz for 60+FPS

Post by Gavrushka »

Oh Lord, I'm not bright enough for this thread. I've brain juice trickling out my ears. There was only enough for a very, very small puddle. :|
Scoob
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Re: CPU & @GHz for 60+FPS

Post by Scoob »

KextV8 wrote: Fri, 7. Dec 18, 16:28 It's complicated. What we see as CPU % is really more like 1-time spent idle rather that the work the CPU is actually doing.

So, say a process is running, and you are actually limited by memory access speed, you might see a higher number on utilization than what is actually going on. The process might show say 70% utilization for that core but in reality it's like 30% work 40% stalled waiting. In comes hyper threading and other techniques that allow the computer to access that stalled percent to work on other unrelated tasks instead of leaving it to just wait.

If we consider the total available CPU % as a pie, then hyperthreading is basically stopping things from saving pieces of pie for later and letting it be first come first serve instead. With HT, you can do more(sometimes) with the same available resources so it makes your CPU utilization appear lower.

What's happening isnt that the CPU can't do the work, it's that memory and bus speeds can't feed the CPU fast enough. Unfortunately, since you and I are dealing with older mobos and ram due to compatibility with our CPUs, there isnt anything we can do about it. But, fortunately, we don't really need to either, since we are getting satisfactory performance :)
There's certainly a lot more to it, that's for sure. I was trying to keep things relatively simple, just trying to explain the basics. You're of course right though, perhaps if my RAM were 2,400mhz rather than 1,600mhz I'd be pushing my CPU a little harder.

At the end of the day, I'm pretty happy how my old CPU is performing in a number of titles, which is quite amazing considering its age. 4.6ghz is pretty good, and I'm currently using the old Antec 120mm AIO I bought at the same time. A couple of SSD's and a 1070 have kept this build remarkably current from a gaming perspective.

Scoob.
Mrouija
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Re: CPU & @GHz for 60+FPS

Post by Mrouija »

Well, this game is as good an excuse as any to procure some shiny new hardware. I hope someone can tell me: does this game benefit from increased parallelization? ie: Should I aim for cores [Threadripper etc.]?

Also in context to this thread:
Do Intel chips even properly use HT under Windows with all the microcode updates/patches to mitigate Spectre/Meltdown etc.?
ddrulez
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Re: CPU & @GHz for 60+FPS

Post by ddrulez »

It´s easy to see what´s limit your fps.
Go and underclock your CPU or remove the OC.

I did a test in iRacing VR. CPU was at 30-40% load and GPU at 70%. As soon i dropped the OC from my CPU fps went down around 10fps.

Even when it seems there is not a full load on the CPU, you can´t be sure about it.
Scoob
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Re: CPU & @GHz for 60+FPS

Post by Scoob »

Mrouija wrote: Fri, 7. Dec 18, 18:27 Well, this game is as good an excuse as any to procure some shiny new hardware. I hope someone can tell me: does this game benefit from increased parallelization? ie: Should I aim for cores [Threadripper etc.]?

Also in context to this thread:
Do Intel chips even properly use HT under Windows with all the microcode updates/patches to mitigate Spectre/Meltdown etc.?
It looks like four fat cores would outperform eight not so fast ones. I think ES have said themselves that the game is heavy on three cores - which seems to match what I see - with any other cores having far less load. The game runs fine for me with four hyper-threaded cores, and runs equally well if I disable HT.

Scoob.
Drzator
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Re: CPU & @GHz for 60+FPS

Post by Drzator »

Ty for answers.
16Gb RAM is arrived + added 6cm fan for CPU mosfets = 3.95Ghz P95 stable and 4.00Ghz gaming stable.

Now im just weiting for somekinda sign for starting play game :).
Socratatus
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Re: CPU & @GHz for 60+FPS

Post by Socratatus »

Drzator wrote: Tue, 11. Dec 18, 16:48

Now im just weiting for somekinda sign for starting play game :).
Waiting for something to happen before you do anything is never a good thing to do.
1. Please do more on NPC civilian/uniform variety, and bio customisations, Devs.
2. Stations need sirens/warnings when enemy is close in numbers or Station in danger of destruction (in Sandbox).
Yes, for immersion. Thankyou ahead of time. (Edit: This is actually happening!!!)

"No problem can withstand the assault of sustained thinking."
"Before acting 'out of the box', consider why the box was there in the first place."
Drzator
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Re: CPU & @GHz for 60+FPS

Post by Drzator »

Patience is God's grease.
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KextV8
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Re: CPU & @GHz for 60+FPS

Post by KextV8 »

PabloRSA wrote: Mon, 3. Dec 18, 14:14 The game is now Vulkan the bottleneck will now be your GPU as it moves alot of the rendering to the GPU and not the CPU.
Sort of true, but also not. The simulation is very intensive on CPU and you can still very easily bottleneck that, especially as frame rates go up or we gain more player assets. It's more like... no matter what you do in X4, something is going to be bottle necking. For most actually, it will probably still be CPU. I've coached a number of people in my discord into getting higher fps out of their rigs and only one of them was being GPU bottlenecked.

For the OP, my rig is an i7 2600K overclocked to 4.5ghz. 16gb RAM. GTX 970 also overclocked a fair amount. Running at 1920x1080 I get a stable 60fps under heavy detailed areas like roid fields and stations. 90 -130 everywhere else. Everything is on high except I have distortion off, and I'm using FXAA instead of MSAA or SSAA. Those AA options will cause my GPU to bottleneck and cut my frame rate in half. Under current settings, I'm CPU bottlenecked as confirmed by minor further overclocking on the CPU yields higher FPS. I'm happy with where it's at. I'm at a delicate balance where basically my CPU and GPU are both very close to doing the best they can.
Drzator
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Re: CPU & @GHz for 60+FPS

Post by Drzator »

Ok, game downloading. I can "cut" CPU on 4+4 core and do better OC for less total heat :wink: .
Drzator
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Re: CPU & @GHz for 60+FPS

Post by Drzator »

I can live whith that:

Sweet/d dream: 45s YT clip Vsync 60fps:
https://youtu.be/D9yyyzY84xc

Somthing telling me that is to good to be true?

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