Definition of END GAME in for example X4 Foundations

[BigBANGtheory]

I pondered similar thoughts back in X3 and concluded there is no "end game", there are simply phases of progression. This is why I refer to things as "the post build phase" or "the late game phase"

[ZombiePotatoSalad]

I never believed the phrase "end game" suited sandbox games. I prefer "late-game."

A game can "end" whenever you so choose. So what are you going for? Complete all plots? Found the greatest trade empire? Dead is Dead run? Or the good ol' "apocalypse" scenario, where you take all your ships and rampage across space, destroying everything? Will you do a roleplay series, for yourself or on YouTube? How about a same-ship challenge? Or will you get a capital ship as soon as possible, and command everything from the bridge, never flying yourself?

After attaining your self-imposed goal, will you start again? Will you try new avenues of play?

Space is no limit.

[Pares]

I think it would be awesome if there were inactive gates which you could activate through some optional mission or research at your PHQ, Stellaris L-Gate style, that would lead to Xenon and/or Khaak systems, triggering an invasion, or just leading to some sectors with some kind of treasure, like special ships, weapons, valuable cargo or even station modules, that you couldn't get anywhere else. The gate connections could even be randomized on every gamestart, so you would never know what you will get.

[LittleBird]

Endgame for a X game is not an easy task.
For example the HQ-Plot in X3. Delivering thousand bunchs of microchips, crystalls etc.
This was a very bad mission design.
- You needed time only
- If you shortened the time with the building of mass production facilities.... you just repeatet building a fabric complex. Over and over. No variety, no challenge just repetitions and an awfull experience.
- I cheated and so did others for sure.

This "mission" shows us the problem to create a challenge in an open game:
- Player A and B are on completely different stages. The challenge could overhelm Player A (so he misses content and is tempted to cheat) and bore Player B. Both players have an awfull experience.
- Almost everything in X games can be achieved with simple cash. Making money is just a matter of time -> you need time only


Conclusion:
1. Endgame goals have to be variant. You need something for people who create a small fleet and for someone who aims for an all out war or his own economic empire.
2. Endgame goals should require more than money

First point requires that the game can track the power a player have. So the god AI can create challenges. Think about a message from a big factions that is concerned about the size of your private fleet. It would be realistic if the AI reacts to an rising military threat. This could lead to diplomatic, restrictions, war, etc.
Sound good right?
But... what with the player who just want to build a gigantic fleet? Who has no interest in fighting against a friendly faction but attacking a Xenon sector?

No matter what you do you can not make both players happy.
Personally I would like an AI that can follow your actions and reacts to them. That forces you to react so you can not just grow undisturbed until you became allmighty.
But I also understand people who are peacefull builder.
An obvious solution would be optionality. But I'm not sure if this is sufficient.

tl:dr
No tl:dr. Read it. Don't be lazy. (And I never answered point 2...)

[AleksMain]

...
This was a very bad mission design.
- You needed time only
- If you shortened the time with the building of mass production facilities.... you just repeatet building a fabric complex. Over and over. No variety, no challenge just repetitions and an awfull experience.
- I cheated and so did others for sure.
...

Have you said about HUB plot ?

Can you believe, that some players never used any mods for X3 games ?

I saw posts of such players.

More, I never used mods myself.

And I have completed HQ plot many times, although HUB plot is not fun for me, so I have not completed it.

About tedious, repeating process for HUB plot:
you can buy Microchips and other items too. Even using UT ships.

As said in Starting Scenarios :

X3 is not about glorious endings but about humble beginnings. Anything can be achieved if the player works towards it but how challenging that can be is often decided within the first 24 hours of gameplay and that is determined by what starting scenario the player chooses.

I played X3 using all possible starting scenarios. It is interesting for me.

[LittleBird]

Read my post and then try again

[Pares]

Endgame for a X game is not an easy task.
For example the HQ-Plot in X3. Delivering thousand bunchs of microchips, crystalls etc.
This was a very bad mission design.
- You needed time only
- If you shortened the time with the building of mass production facilities.... you just repeatet building a fabric complex. Over and over. No variety, no challenge just repetitions and an awfull experience.
- I cheated and so did others for sure.

This "mission" shows us the problem to create a challenge in an open game:
- Player A and B are on completely different stages. The challenge could overhelm Player A (so he misses content and is tempted to cheat) and bore Player B. Both players have an awfull experience.
- Almost everything in X games can be achieved with simple cash. Making money is just a matter of time -> you need time only


Conclusion:
1. Endgame goals have to be variant. You need something for people who create a small fleet and for someone who aims for an all out war or his own economic empire.
2. Endgame goals should require more than money

First point requires that the game can track the power a player have. So the god AI can create challenges. Think about a message from a big factions that is concerned about the size of your private fleet. It would be realistic if the AI reacts to an rising military threat. This could lead to diplomatic, restrictions, war, etc.
Sound good right?
But... what with the player who just want to build a gigantic fleet? Who has no interest in fighting against a friendly faction but attacking a Xenon sector?

No matter what you do you can not make both players happy.
Personally I would like an AI that can follow your actions and reacts to them. That forces you to react so you can not just grow undisturbed until you became allmighty.
But I also understand people who are peacefull builder.
An obvious solution would be optionality. But I'm not sure if this is sufficient.

tl:dr
No tl:dr. Read it. Don't be lazy. (And I never answered point 2...)

Firstly you shouldn't be able to build fleets as easily as in previous games. I always found it too easy to increase your reputation in X3, and after a certain point, money wasn't a problem either (equipping your ships with weapons was another story though...). I wouldn't even mind if there were some limits regarding how many warships can a private person with a certain reputation legally own, or how many ships the given faction would be willing to sell you. I am almost certain, that after a point, blowing up enemies and making money from trading shouldn't increase your reputation with a faction at all. Instead, you could do some increasingly difficult special (story?) missions, and maybe after you reach top reputation with a faction, some optional endgame events could be triggered.

[AleksMain]

Read my post and then try again

Reading ...

Endgame for a X game is not an easy task.
For example the HQ-Plot in X3. Delivering thousand bunchs of microchips, crystalls etc.
...

Please, read about real HQ plot in the X3:Albion Prelude.

I don't see anything related to "bunchs of microchips, crystalls etc." there.

What are you talking about ?

Also most if not all cheats are inside mods.This is why I said about mods, meaning cheats.

[X2-Illuminatus]

A HUB plot and a PHQ plot exist in X3TC, too, where the HUB plot consists mostly of hauling huge amounts of wares to the HUB. (This is even refernced in X3AP's HUB plot at some point.) Also, in X3TC one requirement to start the PHQ plot is having completed HUB plot, first.

[AleksMain]

A HUB plot and a PHQ plot exist in X3TC, too, where the HUB plot consists mostly of hauling huge amounts of wares to the HUB. (This is even refernced in X3AP's HUB plot at some point.) Also, in X3TC one requirement to start the PHQ plot is having completed HUB plot, first.

Yes, but then it is problem of the HUB plot, and I mentioned it in the my own post above:

...
This was a very bad mission design.
- You needed time only
- If you shortened the time with the building of mass production facilities.... you just repeatet building a fabric complex. Over and over. No variety, no challenge just repetitions and an awfull experience.
- I cheated and so did others for sure.
...

Have you said about HUB plot ?

[X2-Illuminatus]

But you were talking about X3AP, while LittleBird was talking about the one from X3TC. Those are two completely different plots. Also you seem to be rather focussed on the usage of mods, while LittleBird tried to explain why the design itself was bad.

[LittleBird]

Oh now I see what you mean.
Yes I mean the HUB plot of course.
Both start with h though

[csaba]

How about an "advanced AI" intelligence on the PHQ who can give randomized end game missions.

Input: Trade

"The shipyard at Argon Prime seems to be low on Telladianium imports. Collect XXXXX tons of the ware and deliver it to them. Reward: 20% reduced ship construction costs for 2 hours."

Input: Build

"Local businesses are running low on food in Twenty Billion. Build a station in the core sector with a Nostrop oil production of XXXX. Reward: Build plot claim cost in Teladi home sectors reduced by 20% for 24 hours."

Input: Explore

"Scouts went missing deep in Xenon territory. Find and retrieve their reports on the system. Reward: Knowledge of current Xenon AGI goals. 10% bonus damage against Xenon ships for 10 hours."

Input: Fight

"The High Priest is planning a large scale millitary invasion against the Argon Federation. Join their task force and conquer the sector. Reward: 3 fully upgraded destroyers"

Input: Crime

"Local Crime Lord has came into the knowledge of some expensive equipment leaving Paranid Prime soon. The ship will dock at XXXX in XX minutes and it's destionation is: XXXX. Board and take the ship then return it to the pirate base. Rewards: "Good connections" Police will not scan your ships for the next 5 hours."

[LittleBird]

@csaba
All examples except for the Explore thing are exactly what I critiziced in my former post.

Delivering wares, Building a station, moving your fleet... it all comes down to money.
It's not challenging, not interesting, just a generic mission and stuff you allready did by this point.

[csaba]

@csaba
All examples except for the Explore thing are exactly what I critiziced in my former post.

Delivering wares, Building a station, moving your fleet... it all comes down to money.
It's not challenging, not interesting, just a generic mission and stuff you allready did by this point.

While they are essentially similar to the HUB missions the difference this time would be that you don't have to do each just the ones you like. So if you like to shoot things you only do the Fight missions. If you liked doing 1000 rounds of microchip hauls then you could do that.

I was trying to make them a bit more unique with unique rewards as well. Here what I thought:

Telladianium is not produced in Argon systems so you have to give it an extra mile.

Station build missions did rarely coincide what factions actually need in the previous games. Since now the AI is actually smart enough to build it's own economy, you could see a positive change if you do a mission like this.

The sector takeover will be a much larger task than before in X3.

The exploration missions very rarely took you out of the local area aside plot missions. Here I was thinking a long range mission in enemy territory with an unknown location.

Taking a trade ship unharmed is not as easy as one might think with a properly patrolling AI.


Maybe doing a set amount of each would trigger an event connected to it like in Stellaris.

Trade: You increased traffic so much that the Pirate Cartel took an interest in you. They demand protection money. Your ships are getting more frequently attacked unless you pay and they might also demand that you do some shady dealings as well which puts your good standing with your customers at risk. To fix this you either need to assassinate their leader, kill enough pirates or get leverage on them somehow.

Build: Your influence increased substantionally with several factions, people see you now as an alternative leader to the great powers. A huge migratory fleet is at your doorsteep full with people begging for a simple life. You have to build habitats while battling the politics of the big powers. People ask you to help colonize a far away planet/moon, you have to build huge mining operations and Highways to fuel the colonization project. At the end if you play it right you can become an actual Republic/Empire.

Fight: The factions have driven each other to the brink of destruction. The Xenon feel this weakness and attack in huge waves to finally put an end to their former masters.

Exploration:Your experience with reconnaissance has reached the ears of the very top people. They propose a dangerous mission from which you might not come back. They give you a special Carrier that has an unfocused jump drive. Your goal is to find the still unconnected gates through a series of randomly generated systems(BattleStar Galactica style). You will need to scavenge for data to find your next location to jump to, fight Kha'ak, Xenon or some leftover pirates from the previous era, fix your ship cause of sabotage etc .. At the end you can end up in Omircron Lyrea, Albion, the Split Homeworld or whatever, you will be shown a cutscene as they reconnect the gates where you return to your starting point. Say the gates are now connected but the politics don't allow to cross through yet, the same way as the X3R Earth gate was. Egosoft could actually hint at the location of their expansions this way.

Crime: You became a notorious criminal. A faction of pirates want to swear loyalty to you after their former leader passed away. The problem is other pirates want the position as well plus the great powers see an opportunity to get rid of a pesky mosquito. Defend your assets from rivals and military attacks. Use hacking and bribes to divert attention from you to the other contenders. Build up your relation with the pirate faction so they choose you as their leader. The final battle could be a great 3 way showdown between you, your last rival and the local military force. Win and get to own a proper pirate faction who you can send out on raids, smuggle jobs or rent them out as mercenaries.

[Inverness]

I do like the idea of being able to trigger some sort of special end-game event like an invasion to test the strength of the empire you've built.

Sort of like how Stellaris has the end-game crisis.

It could also be the kind of thing where most of the races and factions temporarily ally to deal with it.

I'm not sure what you could do for a trade-focused player though. Perhaps instead of you being the one to fight on the front line against the enemy, you provide the AI with the resources to build ships to do the fighting?

Also I like the variety in the ideas that csaba posted.

[BigBANGtheory]

For me what the OP calls END GAME (and I call late-game) is that point where you've amassed enough wealth, income and military capability that your focus becomes on what to do with all you assets. It brings purpose to the previous build & grow phase as opposed to just carrying on for the sake of it.

A lot of people associate this with fleet management because having built a fleet its the natural point to go use it, or just look at it and take photo's if you want For other players it might be that point they can afford that massive complex they've been working towards, and now you have it what's next...

Conclusion:
1. Endgame goals have to be variant. You need something for people who create a small fleet and for someone who aims for an all out war or his own economic empire.
2. Endgame goals should require more than money

Sure why not, I'm a fan of player triggered which leads to these outcome even if the player does nothing i.e. the do nothing path has a consiquence.

[conquestor]

These ideas are fine for mods, I just want the base game to be full of content/moddable systems.

[ZombiePotatoSalad]

These ideas are fine for mods, I just want the base game to be full of content/moddable systems.

That's all we really need, is the devs to build a foundation. I imagine X4 will carry us for quite a few years, like X3AP did, and as such, see an explosion of mods.

[BigBANGtheory]

I believe the current buzz word or terminology in this area is "player agency", which again I'm not a fan of the term because it doesn't really explain what it is..... basically its what we've been talking about cause/effect, player control and foresight etc etc