X4 as a 4X RTS?

[Ketraar]

Erm when I read RTS I read a game that I play from a bird-eye perspective, hitting buttons to control my minions. So why should any X game be like that at all?

Having RTS elements, like a starmap that lets you quickly control your assets, its OK, but its not its main focus, I want to fly my ships. As a RTS fan, I'd like my X games to stay as they are and if my RTS itch gets strong I play Starcraft II, Stellaris, EU4, etc...

MFG

Ketraar

[Falcrack]

Erm when I read RTS I read a game that I play from a bird-eye perspective, hitting buttons to control my minions. So why should any X game be like that at all?

Having RTS elements, like a starmap that lets you quickly control your assets, its OK, but its not its main focus, I want to fly my ships. As a RTS fan, I'd like my X games to stay as they are and if my RTS itch gets strong I play Starcraft II, Stellaris, EU4, etc...

MFG

Ketraar

My idea was it could play as an RTS from the perspective of being able to control the empire (somewhat possible in X3, but clunky map interface makes it tricky), and having AI opponents which are on equal footing with the player, playing by the same set of rules (not the case at all in X3). So in my ideal scenario, is would be an optional gamestart where the different races all start off in roughly equal situations, with equal opportunities for expansion. The player would represent one of the races.

In addition to the RTS component, however, you have the added bonus of being able to play from the perspective of a single ship. So an RTS where you are actually able to be flying one of the units in battle if you will.

Another way it would differ from traditional RTS games is the pace. It would take place over a much longer time period. The resources amd economic simulation would be far more complex than any traditional RTS.

It would be a 4X RTS because like the other 4X games, you would explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate, and like an RTS because it would be real time, and involve strategy. Some other games, like Sins of a Solar Empire, advertise themselve as 4X RTS, but I consider that game more RTS than 4X, and my idea for X4 would be more 4X than RTS. The way I envision it playing out would actually be like no other game I know actually. Certainly it would not be a twitch RTS like StarCraft, and it would have a much grander scale in terms of economy and slow game pace than Homeworld.

It was just an idea, I didn't want the whole game to be an RTS, but a gamestart, possibly a mod, would be nice, especially if the AI could expand and build and have similar limitions, just like the player.

[CBJ]

You can't have a gamestart that gives you the "RTS-style" behaviour without having all of that behaviour built into the game, which is a waste of valuable time and resources that could have been put to better use. It makes the unattractive proposition I mentioned earlier even more unattractive, as we'd essentially be adding an entire new game's worth of features that many people would never even see, let alone pay for!

As for the AI factions playing by the same rules as the player, that's a pretty tall order for all kinds of reasons, and doesn't necessarily make for a good game. Let's just look at the "limited budget" idea for starters.

1. It's not necessary. In the early stages of the game, the budgets of the other factions are pretty much irrelevant to the player as they are orders of magnitude higher. In the latter stages, when it starts to become relevant, there are plenty of other ways for the player to limit those factions' activities and make the process of competition interesting. Obviously the AI factions' behaviour needs to be balanced so that they don't just expand at an insane rate, but that would still be the case even if they were limited by budget, otherwise they would simply crush the player earlier on. Essentially it's a redundant limitation that creates more problems than it solves.

2. It makes keeping the game balanced more difficult. Creating AI faction behaviour that makes for an interesting game is difficult enough as it is, without introducing unnecessary limitations. Even without the player's intervention, it is difficult to create a set of behaviours that keeps the game in some kind of balance for hundreds of hours, without descending into all-out war or economic collapse. With the player's actions, those should of course be possible outcomes, but in order for the game to be interesting they need to be outcomes that require considerable effort rather than something that happens the moment the player upsets a delicate balancing act. Putting limitations on the AI factions' finances limits their ability to maintain that balance, making it all the more likely that the economy will collapse far too easily.

3. It doesn't add to the realism or fit the fictional background. This is a relatively minor point, but worth mentioning because of the repeated attempts to claim realism to justify the idea. The player is just one individual with no resources other than those they acquire in space. The AI factions are governments or huge corporations with immense resources, both in space and on the various planets that they control. Their resources would be many orders of magnitude greater than the player's, to the extent that budgetary constraints would be pretty much irrelevant. Aside from the gameplay factors, this is one of the reasons that it's always been nearly impossible to completely eliminate these factions from the game. The best a player can, and should be able to, achieve is to use "interdiction" to prevent an AI faction from effectively operating in space. Note that most of this doesn't apply to the Xenon, for whom the term "budget" would have no meaning anyway, and who would therefore be limited only by resource availability.

4. It limits the player. All of the above points aside, this is the real game-killer. If all the AI factions have limited budgets, then there is an absolute limit on the amount of money in the game. Once the player has acquired all of that money, they can no longer sell anything to anyone else. Aside from killing the in-game economy this also limits the game for the player, leaving them with nothing to do but gather resources and build things from them in an otherwise dead universe. Sure, you can increase the budgets to push this outcome further down the line, but the more you do so, the more you defeat the purpose of having those budgets in the first place!

[gbjbaanb]

You can't have a gamestart that gives you the "RTS-style" behaviour without having all of that behaviour built into the game

You have to have that behaviour in there already, or you lose much of the unique aspects of X games.

eg. X3 was a RTS game, to some extent.

You could assign commands to distant ships to tell them what to do, and run your entire empire through the map. That's *exactly* what a RTS is.

Now the UI wasn't the best for this, and wasn't designed to do it, but all that means is that X3 was a pretty rubbish RTS game, not that it wasn't one at all. Some people would play X3 in this manner, without moving their player ship anywhere, controlling their empire from their player sector. Its possible to do this because of the capabilities in X3.

So what people are asking for is the same, but with a slightly better UI. so you can control your distant ships, assign commands to them, and run your empire remotely.

If X4 has cap ships with bridges that you do not fly yourself - ie giving the navigation office commands to fly you around, then X4 is going to be even more of a RTS than before, just that nobody will notice it is because it appears at first glance to be a FPS game in space.

Whether the AI starts the same as the player or not it irrelevant, we know the game is pretty much a "you are small fry in a big universe" and that's expected. Its not as if the gameplay needs to change to be like other traditional RTS games where everyone starts the same and expands. This is more like the player in Stellaris v the fallen empires.

But the RTS aspects are essential, and what was lost in the transition to X:R that had so much more a focus on the player as a FPS game.

[Vandragorax]

X games can definitely benefit from more RTS features and inspiration. But turning it into a dedicated RTS is going a bit far.

I agree with this. I will not answer "yes" or "no" to the original question as I believe it is too absolute, and "only the Sith deal in absolutes" said a famous Jedi once, rather ironically

[Ketraar]

TBH I think some are butchering the true meaning of RTS. Giving commands to distant units is only very loosely related to RTS. Real-life could then also be considered RTS.

I know these days words have "fluid" meanings and anyone attributes their own interpretation of it, which is why we have a hard time understanding each-other, but thats prolly a discussion for a different topic. So when people say they'd like an RTS or even a 4X X Game I get the chills, as I really think the main focus of X games are the simulation parts, personally I liked the economic management the most and having better tools to manage is always welcome, but again, I'd like the simulation part to not be put second as its a crucial aspect of the X games imho.

X Rebirth went in a good direction, where you manage a manager that then manages your minions, I dont need build orders to amass an army to destroy my enemies.

I'd much rather have X games add more RPG elements/options then turn them into 4X or RTS games (in their traditional meanings).

MFG

Ketraar

[CBJ]

So what people are asking for is the same, but with a slightly better UI. so you can control your distant ships, assign commands to them, and run your empire remotely.

Nobody is denying this part, and we hope that the new map will help with that aspect of the game. But that's not what the OP was describing; not by a long way.

[Fureimuu]

I mentioned Mayhem because it adds a lot of stuff to do. That's it. You don't have to make X4 an RTS, but if it's the same game as XR - quit calling it a "4X" game.

Besides completing a few grindy missions in X3TC / X3AP there was no major goal or activity. Only minor things: get a lot of money, board every ship, get all achievements, etc.

I liked both games, but the more you play, the more you realize how hollow the universe is. I hope that this aspect is improved in X4, so modders don't have to create a "completely different game" in order to bring people back. It hurts to see only 1-2 topics being alive in X3AP section, the game deserves a lot more than that.

[Spero]

I would have absolutely no problem with paying twice for an RTS-lite experience, like Litcube's Universe or Mayhem mod. I know it'd be a post-launch thing, if it ever happened.

[Kittens David]

And I would love that X game remain what it ALWAYS has been and that attracted me that game : a SOLO, PVE, Space simulation.

If you want RTS, PVP, multi go to another game dont come and whine to ruin / change that game. Dont you have ruined enough game already ?

[Snafu_X3]

That's fairynuff CBJ, apologies for not thinking it thru thoroughly! However, I still feel that it's an idea to expand upon if/when possible..

[Fureimuu]

And I would love that X game remain what it ALWAYS has been and that attracted me that game : a SOLO, PVE, Space simulation.

If you want RTS, PVP, multi go to another game dont come and whine to ruin / change that game. Dont you have ruined enough game already ?

Typical forum guy that doesn't even read other posts. Nobody even mentioned PVP, what are you talking about?

[Spero]

And I would love that X game remain what it ALWAYS has been and that attracted me that game : a SOLO, PVE, Space simulation.

I guess you somehow never got to a point where you have fleets of different units, because the only thing stopping X from being an RTS at that point is the UI.

[TheDeliveryMan]

I really like 4X games such as Master of Orion, however IMHO 4X mechanics are best left out of X games. One of the fundamental features of an X game is that the player can progress at his/her own pace.

X games certainly have eXplore, eXpand and eXploit elements. But as soon as you add eXterminate elments to the mix, the minimal player pace is dictated by the progress of the NPC factions.

In the typical X game, the player starts almost bankrupt with just a single ship. Even the smallest NPC faction is a hundred times stronger than the player. Under these conditions with 4X mechanics the player will be eXterminated within the first couple of hours.

For Egosoft that means that they actually would have to balance two games.

[ero_sk]

I would rather see some RTS' interface features implemented into the game. Managing factories, fleets, trade etc. through a nice interface where we get the map view, can select assets by clicking or drawing a rectangle with cursor etc.

[A5PECT]

I would rather see some RTS' interface features implemented into the game. Managing factories, fleets, trade etc. through a nice interface where we get the map view, can select assets by clicking or drawing a rectangle with cursor etc.

Agreed. X games are strategic, thus can benefit from many RTS features and ideas. But ultimately they are not RTS games.

[Kittens David]

Seems i need to clarify my poosition. I am not against it if it comes as an extra but not as a replacement. My fears are that it will simplify the game by opening a door to the dev, a door they already went through once in X rebirth. Tie you into one ship or into smaller ships... making them take the bad way of "ok you can pilot XS and S ships but M, L and XL you cant get in you just command them through the RTS overlay." And that i dont want to happen. I personnaly have none interest into piloting drones, fighters. I am only interested in X games for the joy of piloting heavy corvettes, frigates, destroyers and carriers.