Xenon Hardware: Ships

[A5PECT]

There are some interesting implications in making Xenon cockpit-less.

You'd have ships that don't need any crew, in contrast to almost every other ship in the universe.

Rather than having a cockpit, the only way for the player to directly control them is through remote means (a clever re-application of the drone interface on the Skunk).

Things like that would make capturing Xenon ships more rewarding; they already have a reputation as trophies or prizes for combat-oriented players from previous games.

[RainerPrem]

There are some interesting implications in making Xenon cockpit-less.

You'd have ships that don't need any crew, in contrast to almost every other ship in the universe.

Rather than having a cockpit, the only way for the player to directly control them is through remote means (a clever re-application of the drone interface on the Skunk).

Things like that would make capturing Xenon ships more rewarding; they already have a reputation as trophies or prizes for combat-oriented players from previous games.

Hi,

well, no crew. But you need someone to clean the whole system from any remnants of the AGI code and install a new OS.

cu
Rainer

[rulerofallcheese]

WHOO! Remote controlled xenons! Let's turn them into "I" sized drones!

[Crimsonraziel]

There are some interesting implications in making Xenon cockpit-less.

You'd have ships that don't need any crew, in contrast to almost every other ship in the universe.

Rather than having a cockpit, the only way for the player to directly control them is through remote means (a clever re-application of the drone interface on the Skunk).

Things like that would make capturing Xenon ships more rewarding; they already have a reputation as trophies or prizes for combat-oriented players from previous games.

Yeah, no Crew. Which in turn means there is also nobody who can learn and improve himself (fixed level of abilities) and you can't fly it yourself. I think this would be a fair trade.

But yes, please recycle the VR system for drones from Rebirth and
put it in the cargobay. You are still on board and you will die, if the ship is destroyed and you don't need interiors and cockpits for every xenon ship just one for all (because as stated limited time and workforce are the issues here)

[Vandragorax]

For thematic reasons, I don't think Xenon ships should be useable by the player. I'd rather keep them mysterious and powerful. I think that they could be able to be captured, but only then able to be scrapped, since the A.I. controlling them is either destroyed or suicides, frying everything in the ship.

The human cockpit explanation makes sense and adds a nice bit of flavor. So, perhaps, a story mission could come from that and one or two special, mission related, Xenon ships could actually be captured and made flyable. That would be something I'd like to see. But, I wouldn't want to see any Xenon ships available for general use by the player outside of a couple in story-missions.

I tend to agree with this point of view. Xenon, thematically, are the anti-player. Allowing players to then capture and/or use their ships takes away some of the mystery and danger about them. The Xenon should be seen as such a rogue force that everyone simply wants to eradicate their technology from the universe, not try to clone or use it themselves.

There could perhaps be some interesting technology research that could come out of studying the Xenon architecture and ship design, but I'm against directly capturing/using their ships.

[DaMuncha]

Well Terraformers (xenon) were exactly that, an AI that was sent out to space to teraform planets for colonisation.

[gbjbaanb]

I suspect making them player flyable isn't as simple as in previous games, as the cockpit is an actual thing now, and you have to consider how the player will disembark after landing. So they have to give it more thought than just deciding where the camera should be.

Spot on. Thats why we currently can not have flying xenon ships.
Its not a technical limitiation, but an art time limitation. Maybe also a little bit of lore, to explain why it shouldnt be possible (xenon dont have cockpits etc).

Does this bode well for modders, if making cockpits is too time consuming, or will xenon cockpits then be a possibility in future mods?

Mind you, this shows exactly why walking around stations was such a stupidly bad idea - all that time ES art design staff spent creating the station interiors and NPCs could have been much more productively spent making xenon cockpits. This is why we can't have the nice things we really want. Remember this next time anyone asks for walking on planets or FPS boarding parties.

[spankahontis]

I suspect making them player flyable isn't as simple as in previous games, as the cockpit is an actual thing now, and you have to consider how the player will disembark after landing. So they have to give it more thought than just deciding where the camera should be.

Spot on. Thats why we currently can not have flying xenon ships.
Its not a technical limitiation, but an art time limitation. Maybe also a little bit of lore, to explain why it shouldnt be possible (xenon dont have cockpits etc).

Is this confirmation that the 'hardwired to have cockpit and corridors' is incorrect, or are you saying that in X4 it might be explained that way (but not the case in previous games).

What Humans consider as 'Hard-coded Limitation' maybe a walk in the park for a machine intelligence.
They are designed to learn and evolve, so figuring out how to reverse-engineer and improve on themselves isn't an impossibility within the canon lore of the Xenon.

I'd love to see the Xenon able to create avatars of themselves, mimic the Human Form like the replicators in Stargate.
Be a cool new twist if the Xenon managed to form their own race of bi-pedal machines.

[RAVEN.myst]

I'd love to see the Xenon able to create avatars of themselves, mimic the Human Form like the replicators in Stargate.
Be a cool new twist if the Xenon managed to form their own race of bi-pedal machines.

I very much hope not: despite the creepiness factor of the "uncanny valley" (whose effects cannot be easily and adequately reproduced in a game, where our suspension of disbelief counteracts it, in any case), anthropomorphising antagonists pretty much inevitably demystifies them, makes them more familiar, and causes us to (even if subconsciously) project our emotional and motivational biases/assumptions onto them. In short - more human-like Xenon would make them less "scary".

[Alan Phipps]

One of the previous X game immersion plus factors for me was that Xenon ships, like the Kha'ak, would not respond in any way to comms. Not even with spoof messages. It made them 'sinister'.

[ezra-r]

I suspect making them player flyable isn't as simple as in previous games, as the cockpit is an actual thing now, and you have to consider how the player will disembark after landing. So they have to give it more thought than just deciding where the camera should be.

Spot on. Thats why we currently can not have flying xenon ships.
Its not a technical limitiation, but an art time limitation. Maybe also a little bit of lore, to explain why it shouldnt be possible (xenon dont have cockpits etc).

Perhaps being able to own them, but not to fly them. You would have to install a special AGI program and you could just give them orders.

That would be kind of neat and a easier compromise respecting the lore

[PabloRSA]

Well if they are machines, there is no need for a life support systems, no need for cargo space, they would have limited use other than a rocket with laser guns.

This just gave me a great vision in my 3rd eye, imaging xenon ore collectors......
im thinking of a hungy hungy hippo type machine gobling up astroids, reprocessing the ore on the ship itself and storing it as molten liquid in a tank which we can see into, just for the visuals.

[RAVEN.myst]

Perhaps being able to own them, but not to fly them. You would have to install a special AGI program and you could just give them orders.

That would be kind of neat and a easier compromise respecting the lore

This would be my preference, "drone ships" essentially (but not in the Rebirth ROV sense of the word "drone", but rather in the URV sense, so to speak.) Nose-cam or such could be nice (assuming there will be any secondary monitors such as in X2 and the X3s), so the ship's-eye-view can be enjoyed, but not controlled directly.

With this approach, trophy-hunters could still eventually acquire Xenon ships (preferable as a difficult challenge, such as Xenon boarding in TC/AP), but they would always be a little different form other ships, and would get to retain some of their mystique...

[Crimsonraziel]

Perhaps being able to own them, but not to fly them. You would have to install a special AGI program and you could just give them orders.

That would be kind of neat and a easier compromise respecting the lore

Respecting the lore?
Quote from X3:AP Xenon I:

Like all other Xenon ships, it still contains a redundant crew deck, theoretically enabling living creatures to pilot it.

[ezra-r]

Perhaps being able to own them, but not to fly them. You would have to install a special AGI program and you could just give them orders.

That would be kind of neat and a easier compromise respecting the lore

Respecting the lore?
Quote from X3:AP Xenon I:

Like all other Xenon ships, it still contains a redundant crew deck, theoretically enabling living creatures to pilot it.

crew deck = cockpit?

---

The acquire them I like the idea of having to do something different.

Like disabling them completely and hack them, with different outcomes, like success, partially rogue ship who follows your orders and sometimes just stalls, self destruction with nuclear explosion, or hacking ship getting hacked and converted into a Xenon drone turning against you, so one would think twice and be prepared prepare before trying to capture them.

[Crimsonraziel]

Perhaps being able to own them, but not to fly them. You would have to install a special AGI program and you could just give them orders.

That would be kind of neat and a easier compromise respecting the lore

Respecting the lore?
Quote from X3:AP Xenon I:

Like all other Xenon ships, it still contains a redundant crew deck, theoretically enabling living creatures to pilot it.

crew deck = cockpit?

Where does the lore say Xenon have no cockpit?
There are only 2 X-Games were you could not fly Xenon ships yourself. X-BtF and X:R. Both Games have in common, that you could not fly any other ship yourself.

If respecting the lore is a point then for fly Xenon ships and not against it.

[RAVEN.myst]

..., partially rogue ship who follows your orders and sometimes just stalls, self destruction with nuclear explosion, or hacking ship getting hacked and converted into a Xenon drone turning against you, so one would think twice and be prepared prepare before trying to capture them.

So... running on iOS, then? Yes, I like the idea of it being a case of "playing with fire" - but the dangers can't be too swingy, as getting uber-shafted by RNG would be a VERY embittering experience (imagine going through all the hassles of capturing a Xenon capital, extricating it from enemy territory, getting it back to your PHQ, only to have it go nuclear, taking itself ie. all your effort AND your PHQ with it...) So, I would say that them "hanging" and needing to be rebooted or something, or sometimes going a bit glitchy with their IFF/targeting, both of which COULD still have serious consequences, if the player gambles by using them in reckless ways (for example, near neutral/friendly NPC ships or stations.) Also, I quite like the idea of it being very risky to try turn them back against Xenons, as they might regain control (either temporarily or permanently, perhaps), and so forth. Basically, there's TONS of ways of making them interesting and intriguing without complex coding or development of additional content.

[astreus]

IMO, we should not spoil the Xenon idea in that way, to make them adequate with other (races) ships. That's boring.
I like it to have something different here.
This would bring much more fun to the game than the wish to 'fly every ship I could grab'

Xenon as AI, why should they still have a command room as for living creatures? Computers don't need chairs and monitors.
Oh, yes, I remember the story......on the beginning, their program told them to have a backup for human commanders.......bullsh..!
Imagine how much space / installation you save when you do not need live support systems, living and sleeping, dining,...rooms, command rooms (bridge..) and what about storage for food? Eh? If you prepared to have a human crew - you must have this too!
Much space for nothing! Xenon ship could be much smaller, smarter by having the same power as ships with human/... crews!
Ah, yes, and how could marines enter those ships for boarding...hehe?
But you might HACK a Xenon!

It is very fine to have ships with a complete different concept in game!
This might include the fact, you can't do all the things with them you used to do with the other ships.

So, still a question left:
Should the player have the possibility to repair/re-program the Xenon ship command program? Or install a new one?
This means running a full scale (Xenon) AI........
Isn't that illegal, looking on past game 'laws'?
So, If I own a functional Xenon, it's not recommended to visit xy-zones?
Will my Xenon ship then be treated like a outlaw?

[birdtable]

I think the question you should ask first is why ?
Why would you want to obtain a Xenon ship,,, coolness !! , maybe.. but only the I really has a presence the rest are not that useful, you can obtain better fighters (? ?) , better miners and the K is not that effective as a battleship.
Otherwise just to be able to hack/capture Xenon ships for blueprints (mmmm) or weaponry advances has possibilities...... or just maybe an ornament to park up.

[RAVEN.myst]

... the K is not that effective as a battleship.

Well, in Rebirth that's certainly true. But if we cast our gazes back to TC/AP, while the K is still not a 1v1 match against most other ships of its class, it's helluva cheap and fast to build, comparable to about a M6+ on both counts (more or less.) Consequently, one can churn out a robot fleet of note in short order. So, by that metric, the K (and the J, too, in the same manner, and with the added bonus of being able to carry fighters) is actually the best bang-for-buck (and bang-for-TIME, which at that point of the game is much more significant, with ship construction being serially constrained) capital ship in the game...