Food requirement for ship and station crews

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Voted stations only for basically the same reasons as Ezarkal.

Nope. If X4 was more about having a single station and taking care of it, with more deeper control & stuff, like a tamagotchi, then sure. But if it works like previous games, where it's more about building several stations and managing them from the larger scale, then no.

Did you know pretty much all ownable XR stations need Food Rations or Bofu?

I think this should be implemented not as a micromanagement option but as an optional thing. Like the actual boost when you give secondary resources to boost production. Because of that I voted for ships also, having a bit of food in cargo space should boost the AI behavior in some way for ships also.

I'd like to see ships have a some kid of logistics mechanic such that waging war or trading far from friendly sectors would be difficult. If that could be implemented (such as a mechanic to allow NPCs to acquire required wares via cargo pods from a variety of nearby friendly stations) then I'd also like to see ships needing stuff, like food and fuel, to operate well. Ships needing to dock for resupplies in XR, and at shipyards or drone producers only, factored into voting station-only.

[DaMuncha]

The way they did it in previous X games is fine.

[antoniut]

Voted yes for ships and stations.

Logistics: water, food, medical supplies, ammo, fuel, etc., is, and has been ESSENTIAL to ensure the proper functioning of armies and for succesful expansion of empires.

The game needs sinks? Well, this can be an opportunity

[RAVEN.myst]

I see a lot of "station only" votes - but this is how it's ALREADY being handled in Rebirth - you folks surely don't think the food being consumed by station production is being fed into the factory machinery and turned into components? It's being eaten by the station staff operating the machinery, surely...

Therefore, if it were to be implemented, it would need to be for ships - while I agree that this could potentially result in excessive micromanagement, it could perhaps be handled in some sort of consolidated fashion (a certain amount is automatically transferred to a ship when it docks), and "food rations" or equivalent could be considered to include water and air (whereas "water" as a ware would be either unpurified or distilled water transferred in bulk for industrial processes, either as a reagent or a cooling agent or the like.) There would also need to be a way to automate the process - manually docking or stocking individual ships once one has a fleet would surpass even the ball-ache of Rebirth's hiring mechanism - so, a ship's captain (or some other crew member) should have the option to automatically send a shuttle or cargo drone to a station whenever in range, to resupply, with the costs automatically deducted from the player's account. This all could potentially serve to help sink some extra food from the economy, I suppose.

Alright, so what about the general population of the station? Well, their food importation and distribution would be handled by the private sector, as it already is (implied) in Rebirth - you have food merchants dealing in delicacy packs and chocolate laced rations and what-not on a small scale (inventory items as opposed to shipped wares), in quantities suitable to serve the needs of private citizens. The player owns, runs and maintains the station, but that doesn't mean the player controls every aspect of its inhabitants' lives - someone who owns a shopping mall doesn't concern him/herself with stocking the food reserves of restaurants at said mall - that's up to the tenant that runs that restaurant. [There is the potential for racial diversity here - a race such as the Paranid theocracy could, for instance, be concerned with purity considerations, or there could be some other cultural factor, but while I think this would be great in the abstract hypothetical, I don't think it's the sort of detail that would contribute commensurately to the amount of effort and complexity that it would add to both development and actual play.]

So I vote either "No" or option D. Ships only.

[vkerinav]

Easiest way to handle military fleets would be a supply officer, who will use any freighters assigned to them to keep all ships in the fleet stocked up. A better transfer method than the current clumsy maneuvering would be necessary, though.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Easiest way to handle military fleets would be a supply officer, who will use any freighters assigned to them to keep all ships in the fleet stocked up. A better transfer method than the current clumsy maneuvering would be necessary, though.

For any such logistics (e.g. including missile and drone re-supply) I'd suggest allowing capital ships to use the delivery pods that all XR ships use to transport crew, and the Skunk uses to transport inventory wares, drones and missiles.

I don't know if if delivery pods as we know them from XR will feature in X4 but perhaps something along those lines could be possible.

[Kitty]

I see a lot of "station only" votes - but this is how it's ALREADY being handled in Rebirth - you folks surely don't think the food being consumed by station production is being fed into the factory machinery and turned into components? It's being eaten by the station staff operating the machinery, surely...

rofl no.
Funny insult to our intelligence, but...

My idea was not that staff would die. They would simply resign! Less workers would mean slower production, but food would not in and of itself be used in production. It would be needed to simply keep your workers there. So food would be consumed regardless of production status. Neglect this, and station crew would leave, and it may take some time to get fully staffed again if they all leave due to no food and you want to get it going again.

Up to X4AP, and even XR, food is just a resource that counts for production. The idea here is to have it as constant cost: you have to pay it even if production is zero. If you think that this makes no difference, just imagine you don't see that your factory is not selling. Production stops. Costs continue. Banckrupcy comes. Worst: you can sell, but the solar plant have been destroyed: no energy. Still, you pay the food.

Well. Your crew should not resign unless there are ships to let them go. They should die. And the, your reputation should drop alot! Killing your employees by starvation in the deep space ? Horrible you ! I can even imagine all your other factories going on strike.

[RAVEN.myst]

Up to X4AP, and even XR, food is just a resource that counts for production. The idea here is to have it as constant cost: you have to pay it even if production is zero. If you think that this makes no difference, just imagine you don't see that your factory is not selling. Production stops. Costs continue. Banckrupcy comes. Worst: you can sell, but the solar plant have been destroyed: no energy. Still, you pay the food.

Well. Your crew should not resign unless there are ships to let them go. They should die. And the, your reputation should drop alot! Killing your employees by starvation in the deep space ? Horrible you ! I can even imagine all your other factories going on strike.

Except that not a single employer I have EVER worked for has been responsible for feeding me - granted, there would be certain exceptions (especially in the military, for example), but as I stated in my previous post, personal feeding is the responsibility of the individual, and serviced by the private sector. What I would rather see is wages being paid out over time to the work-force (with which they can buy their own damn food including whatever special dietary requirements they may have, as well as clothes and entertainment and what-not.) Then, if the wages dry up, yes, compromised productivity, strikes, crime, and general discontent, even riots (*almost* tempted to mention the opportunity for first-person shootery here... almost!)

Of course, ships would be a different story, as you point out (and hence why I said above, that I ONLY endorse the idea of food upkeep on ships, if it can be implemented in some way that doesn't have those of us who develop large empires and fleets, looking around for razor blades) - here, money is essentially irrelevant (well, in terms of short-term survival, at any rate), but life support consumables are crucial. Incidentally, one needn't resort to the excruciatingly painful and therefore extremely cruel death by starvation: spaceships have airlocks... *twirls mustache*

[vkerinav]

Easiest way to handle military fleets would be a supply officer, who will use any freighters assigned to them to keep all ships in the fleet stocked up. A better transfer method than the current clumsy maneuvering would be necessary, though.

For any such logistics (e.g. including missile and drone re-supply) I'd suggest allowing capital ships to use the delivery pods that all XR ships use to transport crew, and the Skunk uses to transport inventory wares, drones and missiles.

I don't know if if delivery pods as we know them from XR will feature in X4 but perhaps something along those lines could be possible.

Sounds fair enough to me.

And, since you mention missiles, that's another thing a supply officer could handle--missiles, and drones. I'd add ammo, but it sounds as though there won't be any ammo-based weapons.

[wwdragon]

The less realism based micro, the better.

[caleb]

I hate micromanagement, so not for me. I would just do it differently. If a station is producing at 100%, then consider that station self sufficient, and that it's production and sales can keep it working. If the station is not producing anything, then it goes into an "abandoned" state, and will start taking damage over time, until it becomes a derelict.

That's where the player has to be careful, if a station fills up with product, and stops actively producing stuff, it would go into abandoned state after a few hours, and could be lost. So as long as the stations are producing/selling, then all is good. If not, then you are in trouble.

So takes away micromanagement, but you have to "think" about your production vs. sales vs. consumption to keep everything running properly, and avoid those abandoned stations.

That would be my take on station maintenance.

[RAVEN.myst]

The less realism based micro, the better.

I completely agree. People often go on these "realism" kicks, but what they generally overlook is that games are based on abstraction. Even simulators focus on the crucial and downplay the incidental and irrelevant. In our daily lives, we all have to brush our teeth and commute and go shopping (ok, SOME people actually enjoy that - I'm certainly not one of them, though) and perhaps polish shoes and do laundry and cook even when we're not in the mood etc etc - but when these become the things about our lives that we focus on and remember, then we are in a sad state indeed! You seldom see more than (occasionally) a brief scene of any of these in movies, and for good reason - it's not what the movie is about.

It's the same in games, and if anything, more so: these are about making the meaningful decisions that affect the course of in-game events, not about slogging through tedious minutiae - for me, Rebirth's personnel "management" (*cough*) is a perfect example: all it accomplishes, ultimately, is to take time away from enjoyable aspects of the game, and yet (without mods) it's impossible to avoid this wasteful time-suck if one is to have effective assets that operate at good, or at least adequate, levels of competence; because the results are important/meaningful, this creates the illusion of those hiring tasks involving meaningful decisions, but instead the clumsy mechanism only creates ennui.

Hence, while I don't object to the inclusion of upkeeps for the sake of immersion, if they are to be implemented they HAVE to be user-friendly and quite abstracted, and able to be automated. I don't mind budgeting in maintenance, but I certainly have no desire to be carrying out said maintenance personally - FFS, that's what I pay my minions for - the player is an "overlord" of sorts, after all. As the player's fortune and resources grow, so should his/her activities become more managerial and less hands-on unless explicitly chosen otherwise (eg. jumping into a fighter and personally taking the fight to the enemy, or overruling a default economic setting in order to expedite something) - as responsibilities grow, so does the degree of delegation.

[RAVEN.myst]

II would just do it differently. If a station is producing at 100%, then consider that station self sufficient, and that it's production and sales can keep it working. If the station is not producing anything, then it goes into an "abandoned" state, and will start taking damage over time, until it becomes a derelict.

Ooo, I quite like that, and have one addition: if the station is in its deteriorating state, give the player the option to pay credits over time to keep it in good repair for when it's inhabited again. Basically, a janitorial crew is retained to look after the place and not let the cobwebs take over and rust compromise the place, yet it remains a simple yes/no toggle - if the player is a tightwad or simply can't afford it (and I would then make the fee steepish - not exorbitant, but non-trivial), or is willing to take the chance (perhaps expecting the situation to be rectified soon), then he/she may have to face the consequences. (Alternatively, if a mechanism similar to Rebiurth's architect one is used, then the player can simply periodically order the architect to make repairs.)

[Loltak]

Vote no, hesitate to restrict to station

I like the idea to expand the use of the different wares , however I'm afraid that it could create some complexity in managing your empire like micromanagement, or simply difficult to efficiently implement in the game mechanic/IA... (Player POV : more complex mechanic = more interaction = more possible bugs)

However, restrict to station only could be a intermediate solution as there is probably less stations than ships; especially for the player.

[Aloid]

Yes, but only if it's pancakes.

[Seanchaidh]

Since dedicated living modules are apparently a choice for stations, it seems reasonable to think that supplying consumer needs such as food, water, entertainment (space fuel), and the like could be decoupled from the production process of things like bio-electric wiring and microchips and photon pulse cannons. So instead of throwing food into the production process, we may pay laborers. And then laborers spend their money on rent, food, space fuel, and whatever else: living modules could consume these things instead of the factory.

That, to me, would be really cool: it's a very weird economy that stops eating when a factory runs out of silicon wafers. It would also mean that we could perhaps run a station as an apartment complex. Ren Otani the Slumlord.

[antoniut]

Since dedicated living modules are apparently a choice for stations, it seems reasonable to think that supplying consumer needs such as food, water, entertainment (space fuel), and the like could be decoupled from the production process of things like bio-electric wiring and microchips and photon pulse cannons. So instead of throwing food into the production process, we may pay laborers. And then laborers spend their money on rent, food, space fuel, and whatever else: living modules could consume these things instead of the factory.

That, to me, would be really cool: it's a very weird economy that stops eating when a factory runs out of silicon wafers. It would also mean that we could perhaps run a station as an apartment complex. Ren Otani the Slumlord.

+1

[Kitty]

Up to X4AP, and even XR, food is just a resource that counts for production. The idea here is to have it as constant cost: you have to pay it even if production is zero.

Except that not a single employer I have EVER worked for has been responsible for feeding me - granted, there would be certain exceptions (especially in the military, for example), but as I stated in my previous post, personal feeding is the responsibility of the individual, and serviced by the private sector. ... *twirls mustache*

Did you ever worked on an off shore petrol extraction base ?

Space stations are not equiped with access to roads. There are no road. Stations are isolated. You can pay your workers, if they cannot access to food, they starve.

For the long term mechanics of the game, this is detail. If you don't want to provide food, but accept to pay your workers, then you still have to spend money independently to production efficience. That's the main point for me. Workforces are not disposable as ore.

[mr.WHO]

The less realism based micro, the better.

Exactly! I want to play X4, not some god damn Station Simulator Pro.

If you want you can always add this as a mod.

[gbjbaanb]

An interesting side note of this is people - all discussions are based around there being an infinite supply of workers ready to instantly appear at your factories to make stuff.

I thought this - if we had a cost of credits for running a station, that represented food, water and maintenance etc, and then had a slumlord... sorry executive apartment complex to add to stations that provides income from your tenants. It'd be a simple matter to spam them out and generate huge wealth.

Obviously this wouldn't occur as the excess supply of 'executive apartments' would cause the rent value to drop, but why wouldn't the same resource restrictions apply to the workforce as well?

so I'd be interested in sectors having a limited supply of workers, which for the core sectors wouldn't be much of an issue, but the distant ones might be something interesting to consider in building those far mining outposts, or player-owned sectors that wouldn't have a planet full of workers waiting for employment.