Alandauron wrote:Nope, exactly what I said, YOU do want to pilot, but other that want that as an option like you want it because of the bad pathing. Others have actually stated that if the pathing could be fixed they would be fine, this isn't a new topic lol.
No, it isn't. I'll even admit that, if X3's AI were more of a match for the player and their strafe drive, I'd find it less fun(I did suggest tying strafe speed to turn rate in the 2015 Update thread, though).
Who knows if I'll enjoy it in 'X4'. I'd still like for it to be there.
And so would I, once again I will state the part that you like to ignore. If budget and time restraints lead to a choice between instead of implementation of both I would prefer a focus on pathing.
Yes, they should fix the core mechanics first. Maybe the reason I'm so dismissive is that I think that's obvious. It's like saying they should build a working game before worrying about extra features.
Pathing was, to be honest, worse than I expected in Rebirth. And I do understand that moving an object in a dynamic 3D environment has its share of difficulties.
You like to twist words into something negative when this is merely a discussion.
Nonsense! Okay, lucky guess. Still, that's not happening here. You're the one attempting to redefine a negative statement--lacking--as a neutral one--different. I'm just calling you out on it.
As an aside, I could make an extensive list of the things I thought were stupid about Rebirth when it was first launched. Most of them are either gone, sidelined, or heavily modified at this point.
I'm not sidelining criticism but I am one of those that waited on purchasing X: Rebirth due to all the negative reviews. One I got the game I found it's actually a pretty good game but it does have some flaws. So I did some research and read many of the reviews and what it comes down to is that fans of the series were upset that Egosoft changed the game. Well, that and the game started out as a mess, it has since had many of those issues resolved.
As I said, I never pay any attention to reviews. Most of them are written by people without any taste. Are you sure you don't write reviews often? (Kidding, I'm kidding! Sorry. Terrible sense of humor. My own impression is that Rebirth is not a bad game--it's just not for me.)
Now, it's a pretty safe assumption that not everyone who wrote a review gave the game much of a chance. And see above. Yet I've also notice you attacking me for being 'hostile' to the game, when I've never expressed such an opinion. Well, maybe when someone annoys me.
vkerinav wrote:Rebirth lacks multiple flyable ships.
This was a design choice it seems, they wanted to go with a scripted storyline, which was them taking a risk.
More likely it was a resource limitation, combined with a soft reset. Single ships only need single cockpits(the others were added later). It's not unfair. You also didn't address my point.
Also, X3:Reunion had a similarly restricted story(specific protagonist, etc.), but you could fly any ship you wanted. You were forced into specific ships at certain points, though.
As I said in a previous post I would like to see them continue doing games like X: Rebirth on top of their standard formula that the dedicated fans like yourself already enjoy. As a small developer though I have doubts they will try that again which is sad. They took a chance with X: Rebirth and their fans trashed them for it, with the amount of negativity they received it's doubtful they'll try again anytime soon.
What they tried to do was offer a sandbox. With restrictions. Now, restrictions are fine; they help writers define the story in games. I like a good story-driven game. However, they also tend to put visible walls around a sandbox. The trouble is, Rebirth is an in-between muddle. You can play in sandbox mode, but you're still Stinky Ren Otani, captain of the Albion Skunk.
Yet they did a good job of explaining why they aren't in, the gates have been closed. This was another one of those design choices to try to make a different type of game, no chance for fans to take it on it's merits they just trash it because it's different.
... rather like you're defending it because it's different. Yes, you're coming across as knee-jerk. It doesn't matter that it's different, or the same, or an inflated replica of a sixteenth century forgery of a pre- Cartesian cuneiform thermoplastic molding--it matters if its a good game.
[Note: forget what you know, the technobabble makes perfect sense.]
I can give you a good explanation for why auks are the overlords of the future. Doesn't mean that I didn't make it up just because I like Sparky(Dan Quayle
is a wanker. Sorry, off topic).
Careful now, you're starting to say positive things about XR lol.
I keep getting the vague impression that you're mistaking me for someone else. I dislike Rebirth on its own merits, but I'm not afraid of acknowledging them.
I'm sorry but please go read the reviews[...]
I have. Somewhat. Better things to do with my time, and all that. That people can be petty is hardly news.
So we end up with reviews whining about Rebirth, and you whining about reviews...
vkerinav wrote:Here it comes again: It's different! Progress! They must move forward!
Yes, they must. Especially with all the newer Space Simulation games that are currently being developed. They need to add some new flavor to their games in order to be able to continue having a playerbase once those other games come out.
Once again, I'm fairly certain you missed my point, even though I used the sledgehammer approach to get it across. Progress to
where. This isn't about Egosoft posting minor iterations of X3:TC for all eternity. It's about what changes are good, and what aren't.
Frankly, I'm never quite sure why this point is difficult to get across, but you aren't the first person to have trouble with it. I like change. I'll play games of nearly any genre, if they catch my attention. I expect interesting gameplay, and whatever else the developers promised.
Rebirth contains both good changes and bad ones. The questionable story is nothing new(I have high standards. That Shakespeare guy? Pathetic). Modular ships are, and they're good. Highways are new--I dislike them, but not terribly intensely. More like... since small ships are irrelevant, they exist to serve the player.
Sadly though that's what you're standing for. You're drawing a line in the sand and saying, "If Capships can't be piloted then I won't buy." So suddenly over one single feature you are trying to give an ultimatum. You don't want to find common ground. You don't want to allow them to focus on more important issues. You want to get your way and don't care what they have to give up in order to give it to you.
Are you sure you don't have me confused with someone else? I suppose I conflated you with a few other posters, so I can forgive it, but I never said anything of the sort.
I might buy 'X4'. I might not. I'm going to look at what that game actually is. If that's an unreasonable position, I suggest that you buy me a copy. That way, I can try it, see if I like it, and Egosoft gets supported either way.
I never once tried to tell you what you want, but you seem to want to spin it that way. I only ever told you what I want and that others that, like you, want to be able to pilot Capships want it for different reasons. One of those major reasons is due to bad pathing from Egosoft, if this were fixed then there would be a large portion of the group that wants to pilot Capships that would be content with "commanding" Capships instead.
The problem is that it depends upon what you mean by 'commanding'. If I press my 'a' key, or '4', and my ship turn left, why can't I assume I just issued orders and a con officer responded? I want to say 'turn left'. 'Roll five degrees.' You want to say, 'go to x,y,z'.
I'm pretty sure all the sci-fi captains mentioned in this threat did both.
Now I know you probably don't like the fact that I keep saying that AI pathing is more important than the feature you want so I'll address that separately. While piloting is an important feature to many it is important to many of them for different reasons. Some people just enjoy being able to fly around a giant ship they spent hours upon hours trying to get. Some people hate that when they give commands the ship literally runs into EVERYTHING on the way there and takes forever to get there. Some people like that they can cheese other Capships because they can control theirs better than the AI. I'm sure there's also other reasons for it, these are the only ones I've seen mentioned though.
Now, I know you probably don't like the fact that I keep saying that AI economic behavior is more important than the feature you want, so I'll address that separately. While trading is an important feature to many, it is important to many of them for different reasons. Some people just enjoy being able to trade goods for a fair profit. Some people hate that when they give commands the traders take literal hours to carry them out. Some people like that they can cheese other traders because they can control theirs better than the AI.
Sorry. Not a tactic I like, really, but it's a game. It's always going to be biased towards the player. Yeah, it can be hard. It should also be fun. If it stops being fun, can you give me a reason to buy it? (Let me guess; it's different! Sorry, but it's such a dubious refrain.)
AI pathing affects more than just the player interactions, with bad AI pathing the game doesn't flow as smoothly because the onscreen interactions cause more demand of resources. I'm not sure how they code the offscreen pathing and if when not onscreen ships are able to pass right through each other, but if that's not the case then that also impacts the flow of the game. AI pathing affects what's going on with other ships in your fleet when you're trying to take on a particularly tough enemy, if your big guns can't get into position then the battle might go a different way. This is a much more important feature that I think Egosoft needs to spend more time on than QoL features such as piloting.
Well, you're at least partly right. It all depends on how its done. Since 'X4' will presumably continue the tradition(how foolish of Egosoft. They need to move forward! Yes, that's a low blow on my part, but you know what they say; if at first you don't succeed, bring a bigger hammer) of a simulated economy, good pathing is essential.
[As a side note, please don't talk down to me. I've been competing with Egosoft's AI since around 2007, and I've a fair idea what their AI is capable of--with frequent intervention by mods.]
(As far as I'm aware, out of zone pathing exists only as a linear distance to be traversed. There's no obstacles. I've no issue with this--I can't afford a personal supercomputer institute.)
Ideally I hope you get to pilot on top of allowing the commanding of Capships from a bridge(can't get over how great that mod is lol). It would be wonderful to see us all get exactly what we want in X4.
And I hope 'X4' pleases everyone. No, really. I've no ill-will towards Egosoft. Their support for Rebirth was above and beyond, even if I still don't care for it.
