[AP] TS/TS+ Effectiveness

[radster01]

Ok, for my final list I'm going to use the following formula to calculate efficiency:

Overall cost/cargo/speed

Overall cost is for:
- initial cost of ship
- full engine tuning
- cost of cargo bay for highest effectiveness
- TSE
- jumpdrive
- trade mk2
- navigation command software mk1
- full shields
- fight command mk1+2 (if MDM is required)
- triplex

From cargo, I subtract 200 for jumpfuel and a variable amount for shields.

I will use the number of cargo bay extensions that produces the highest effectiveness.

[egosoftuserdude]

Thanks radster for the spreadsheet; waycool.

This post has a couple of suggestions & also (after extensive mooching of radster's product), answers the 'cheapest freighter solution' question for a number of CLS2 scenarios.

For the original spreadsheet:

- I did see that the hayabusa is listed as having 8x25MJ shields; I think they actually have 2x200MJ shields at maximum (cheaper than 8x25MJ shields)

- I recommend making one-way jump range an input variable for the user; so if they enter a '5' it'll calculate the jump fuel as 10*(5+1) in the volume/cost below your summary spreadsheet.

I mooched off of your product to make a similar spreadsheet for CLS2, intended to answer three questions.

Link is here:
[url] https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_9JU0 ... view?pli=1 [/url]


1) what is the cheapest hunk of junk with at least X cargo capacity that I can park as a CLS2 trap at a station...no shields, jump drive, jump fuel, engine, or steering tunings required.

2) What is the cheapest set of ships I can buy that will move X volume of cargo Y distance with a CLS2 apprentice pilot (trainings turned off)? No Jump Drive or fighters or jump fuel for this tab. Apprentices are able to handle a lot of tasks almost as quickly as logistician pilots, so I thought it important to provide for the possibility that the user doesn't want to allow some of their apprentice pilots to gain rank over time.

3) What is the cheapest set of ships I can buy that will move X volume of cargo Y distance with cargo messenger or logistician pilot? Jump drive and fuel and fighters are used here

For #s 2&3: the spreadsheet doesn't cover a comprehensive list of the possibilities (for example adding engine tunings to the second-cheapest freighter), but it should get the cheapest way to solve your supply line issues 95% of the time.

As someone else noted earlier: using smaller freighters to shuttle things around is generally a good idea, unless you're jumping a long ways, because you'll have less wasted space. I think this is especially important for large/complex CLS2 networks, because using smaller freighters will generally reduce the amount of wasted space, and therefore require you to purchase fewer extra freighters to compensate.


The spreadsheets for #s 2&3 explore three possible scenarios to minimize your purchase costs, while still moving the volume you need each hour over a distance that you specify.

a) scenario1: only use the cheapest ship, but add a few extra tunings to each to handle any leftover volume requirement

b) scenario2: use a mix of the cheapest ship and the next cheapest ship to most accurately match your volume-distance requirements; Excel's solver add-in is great for correctly computing these values...otherwise you can manually change the variable cell to get the minimum value for this scenario.

c) scenario3: use the cheapest ship for all but one of your purchases; then use the cheapest ship that will accomoate your remaining volume-distance requirement[/url]

[ancienthighway]

If you are referring to my comment about wasted space on the larger transports, that is in relationship to Mk3 trading only. Once you get into CLS1 and CLS2 operations, the larger transports may, in fact, be preferred, especially for setting up traps.

Speaking of traps, they should be considered separately as far as hauling efficiency. They aren't haulers, but in effect mobile warehouses that remain docked. Little is needed in the form of upgrades (CLS2 software, navigation software, and optionally cargo hold expansion). Unrepaired captured ships work great. Just needs 1 point of hull to keep it together and it's just as effective as a fully equipped ship.

[egosoftuserdude]

@ancienthighway: True; I also value larger freighters because I need to have less of them. However, where I find CLS2 freighters 'wasting space' is when I have the same freighter sequentially dealing in different products (one larger than the other). Something that can usually be avoided by design, but nevertheless an issue with some wayponit sequences.

@radster: The values we were using for ship base cost do not match what I see in game on my vanilla install; I have posted current vanilla prices in the spreadsheet link I presented earlier in this thread. Updated prices for shields are also in my 'cost' calculation under the heading 'shields'. Note that I gave some credit for selling the 1MJ shield that comes equipped on most freighters.

Also, and importantly: I'm not experiencing cargo bay extension costs in keeping with our formulas (my in-game costs are higher for the values I tested). If our spreadsheets are going to be accurate, we'll need to do some troubleshooting of this issue.

[Grape]

I take it you have taken into account that cost for fitting cargo bay extensions increases per step? and is not a fixed amount.

[radster01]

The atial scale for cargo extension is an exponential one. If someone was willing to put the costs into Excel, we could find the formulas.

OR we could hack UPLINK

@egosoftuserdude
I used costs of the X3 wiki.

By the way I know nothing about CLS - my Paranid Rep is -4. I could raise my Rep, but:

1) I can't be bothered
2) CAG/Manual Trade run suffices for me

I'm about to put up an update for my original list, designed to rate CAG and Mk2 traders.

You guys have already done good work on CLS/Mk3, so I'll finish that off. (I've found that Mistral and Mercury are up there)

[egosoftuserdude]

Yeah I might play around a little more in excel on those cargo bay tunings but it may also be one of those things we say is 'good enough' and move on. The behavior I noticed when looking at prices for cargo bay extensions for the dolphin hauler was that the rate of growth for the increment changes in a sequential manner (rate of growth is boosted sequentially by 2,1,1 and then 0, and that sequence is repeated for many, but not all of the increments. Also: price growth alternates between a small cost increase, and a large cost increase this is because the rate of growth for some steps is incremented alternately by 1 and 0, whereas the larger increment increases by 2 and 1 every four steps. One implication is that a single coefficient for the x^2 factor in a least squares model may not be sufficient to describe the behavior.

CLS is sold exclusively at Argon Equipment Docks (not paranid), so if you're ok with the big Cahoonas, then you can buy CLS2 software. But CAG is also an amazing tool; the place where CLS2 shines is with fleet resupply operations...for station management I would give the edge to CAG because of its ease of use, and its ability to respond to a changing universe without intervention. I've been wrestling with setup for 100 CLS2 station traders and waypoint setup can be a little tedious.

Not to belabor the point, but I don't know if I was clear in my earlier communication: the x3 wiki prices are out of date relative to the most recent X3AP patch...I updated the CLS2 spreadsheet with current ship base prices and for the 25MJ and 200MJ shields...so it would just be a simple copy/paste to your spreadsheet if you choose to make that edit.

-4 with the paranid eh? Kudos to you. My current game is pretty peaceful at present but I'll probably shake it up a bit after I borrow a few destroyers ;)
And the paranid are so annoyingly patronizing they make a good choice for an enemy...

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Hi egosoftuserdude,

There may have been a bit of a misunderstanding. As far as I am aware, radster01 hasn't published his spreadsheet. It looks like your spreadsheet is an adaptation of the one I posted in a reply post on page 1

Thanks for spotting the 200MJ shield error, although I think it was with the Split Drake rather than Terran Hayabusa. Thanks also for mentioning the price was with the 1MJ shield included.

I've uploaded a corrected version (v1.3) and re-linked it on page 1, and adjusted the text in that post accordingly.

v1.3 change log:
1. Fixed Split Drake shields (8x25MJ --> 1x200MJ).
2. Subtracted cost of all the free 1GJ shields from ship price.
3. Changed listed ship prices from the rounded thousands to more accurate values.
4. Merged the 3 tabs per trader type into single tabs to simplify use.
5. Adjusted StT and LT tabs to pull data from UT tab to reduce chance of errors.

Please feel free to use this new version or the new data from it (ship prices) if it is useful.

I'm gonna scroll up and see if I can take on some more of your good feedback

Regards,
Sparks

[Honved]

In my opinion, the comparison needs to consider the cost effectiveness of a fully engine-tuned ship both with and without expanded cargo capacity. Engine tunings will pay for themselves in a short time, so it always pays to buy them. The cost of upgrading the first couple of cargo spaces may be dirt cheap, but when you add in 3000+ extra cargo space, the ever-increasing price per space is fairly high, and in many cases it's more effective to buy a second ship than to max out the first.

Speed plays a far more important role than cargo capacity with high-value wares, while bulk goods might only pay off if you can move enough to cover the salary of the pilot. The idea of using a simple "speed x capacity" formula is only marginally meaningful, and almost totally irrelevant if the ship is only carrying 1/4 of its capacity or less on a typical run.

I prefer reasonably fast basic freighters, such as the Mercury, Caiman, or Demeter, but sometimes place a sector trader with a Hauler, Superfreighter, or XL version in a sector with a lot of bulk minerals, or with a ware list restricted to E-cells and Ore. That way, they won't go after an opportunity to trade some high-value ware, which prevents my faster ship from taking the job, and then lose the deal to a faster AI trader who arrives first.

[egosoftuserdude]

Hi sparky; you're right I misunderstood. My bad for not giving you props where they are due.

And thanks for updating your product too. I plan to use it!

[ajax34i]

I love the Split Caiman Haulers; not only do they perform well, but it's also easy to purchase batches of 10 from Patriarch's Conclusion and set them up with jump drives in Queen's Harbour, then off they go with "broadcast to all" commands to get them outfitted with all the mods.

[ancienthighway]

CLS is sold exclusively at Argon Equipment Docks (not paranid)...

Actually there is a station in Priests Pity that sells CLS software. Roguey's lists it as an Equipment Dock and doesn't show the CLS software, but take a look in game and you'll find it there. It can also be found at the Trading Post in Hatikvah's Faith, still requiring good terms with the Argon, but not an EqD.

[Nanook]

...Trading Post in Hatikvah's Faith...

Don't you mean Herron's Nebula? Hatikvah's Faith is a pirate sector and doesn't have a Trading Post, only an Anarchy Port.

[ancienthighway]

Oops, yeah, that's what I meant.

[radster01]

I started as Terran Commander an the Paranormal and the Argon hate me. HENCE l, I cant buy CLS.

[ancienthighway]

Actually there is a station in Priests Pity that sells CLS software.

[egosoftuserdude]

[quote="ancienthighway"][quote="egosoftuserdude"]
CLS is sold exclusively at Argon Equipment Docks (not paranid)...[/quote]

Actually there is a station in Priests Pity that sells CLS software. Roguey's lists it as an Equipment Dock and doesn't show the CLS software, but take a look in game and you'll find it there. It can also be found at the Trading Post in Hatikvah's Faith, still requiring good terms with the Argon, but not an EqD.[/quote]

Interesting - didn't know about cls at priest's pity or Herron's Nebula...thanks!

[radster01]

STATION/MK2 TRADER EFFECTIVNESS

After lots of blood, sweat and tears I finally compiled my list, accessable from this link.

The top ten ships for for effectiveness were:
1: Caiman (100%) (Low on shields, 50MJ, low cargo, very very fast(124 m/s). Quite cheap. Easy to equip with a jumpdrive - buy in Patriach's Seclusion, then escort to Queen's Harbour for a jumpdrive from Atreus HQ.)
2: Mistral (87%) (Medium-high shielding at 100MJ, average-low cargo, blazing fast (130 m/s), slightly pricey for a basic freighter. Also easy to get a jumpdrive on: buy in Legend's Home, and equip it with a jumpdrive at OTAS HQ)
3: Mercury (85%) (Medium shielding at 75MJ, average-low cargo, decent speed (100 m/s), very cheap. Another one that's easy to get a jumpdrive on - sold at Legend's Home.)
4: Dolphin (77%) (Medium shielding at 75MJ, average cargo, slow speed (75 m/s), priced reasonably. YET ANOTHER ONE easy to get a jumpdrive on - buy in Queen's Retribution, equip in Queens Harbour.)
5: Caiman Tanker (77%) (Re-Caiman, but note that it's about double the price, but is 1 m/s faster.)
6: Vulture (70%) (Low shielding at 50 MJ, average-low cargo, slow speed (80 m/s), reasonably priced. The first ship on this list that dosen't have a jumpdrive retalier within 5 sectors of it's buying location. You can take it to Legend's Home, but it's easier to get a TM with 4 M5's. I prefer the Dolphin.)
7: Caiman Hauler (67%) (My personal favorite, medium shielding at 75 MJ, above average cargo, average speed (99 m/s), also reasonably priced. Re-Caiman for jumpdrive.
8: Demeter Miner (66%) (A miner varient more effective than it's normal? Medium shields (75 MJ), average-low cargo, quite fast (118 m/s), quite expensive. For the jumpdrive, either take it to Queen's Harbour, or bring in the TM.)
9: Demeter (64%) (Medium shields (75 MJ), average-low cargo, average-high speed (110 m/s), very expensive for it's stats. Re-Demeter Miner for Jumpdrive.)
10: Demeter Tanker (64%) (Re-Demeter in every way)

The best three TS+'s were way down the list...

12: Mistral SF (63%) (High shields (150 MJ), but very expensive. Very high cargo, average-low speed for a TS+ (78 m/s), expensive. Re-Mistral for Jumpdrive. IMO this ship loses the most powerful asset of the Mistral - it's speed.)
20: Drake (54%) (High shields (200 MJ), quite cost effective. Average-high cargo, very fast for a TS+ (93 m/s), average price for its class. Re-Caiman for jumpdrive. IMO looks awesome)
24: Snotra (52%) (High shields (200 MJ), quite cost effective. Average-high cargo, average speed for a TS+ (83 m/s), one of the cheaper TS+'s. Re-Demeter for jumpdrive.)

Please post any comments!

P.S. Don't buy a Lotan.

@SparkySparkycorp - Your shields in your spreadsheet are wrong - if a TS had 75 GJ of shields, it would be stronger than the Vahalla!

[ancienthighway]

Quite a different list than the one you first started this thread with, and more in keeping with what many players have come to use. I wouldn't place the Boron and Teladi ships higher than the Paranid ships, but that's more personal preference I think.

Jumpdrives and desired upgrades/equipment are easy for all purchases, no matter where they are bought, via TM/M5 supply.

Nice work.

[Honved]

Yes, that's a lot closer to what I consider "reasonable". Still, I rate speed a bit more highly, so the Dolphin and Vulture would take a step or two down the list behind the Demeter versions (interesting tidbit about the Demeter Miner being faster than the standard model). Otherwise, FAR more informative than the original list.

Note (in TC) that getting a Mercury in Argon Prime and picking up the JD from Terracorp in the adjacent sector is about as easy as it gets, at least for a few starts. The only catch is getting to the 25Mj shields in Cloudbase SE before the factory gets removed. Note also that Mercury = Mercury Tanker in every respect except graphics.