A discussion about efficient CLS2 configuration in early game.

Masochisto · Post by **Masochisto** » Fri, 6. Sep 13, 18:46

Thanks for sharing your experimentation too Marrok.

I'm still working on this save and have restarted the build phase 3 times in total trying the three strategies mentioned and a strategy more inline with Tim's guide.

Your point about minimum amount needed per cycle is a very good one that I hadn't even considered. The amount used per cycle should be available from xadrian complex calculator for most factories.

Tim mentioned in another thread that he noticed cahoona bakeries alternating between meat and wheat from cycle to cycle, and made me realize I have completely miscalculated the meat and wheat demands for my target area. I've since been concerned that Missile fabs that take both silicon and ore may behave the same way.

I'll update the thread with more details over the weekend.

Timsup2nothin · Post by **Timsup2nothin** » Fri, 6. Sep 13, 19:13

Masochisto wrote:
Tim mentioned in another thread that he noticed cahoona bakeries alternating between meat and wheat from cycle to cycle, and made me realize I have completely miscalculated the meat and wheat demands for my target area. I've since been concerned that Missile fabs that take both silicon and ore may behave the same way.

I don't know if cahoona bakeries alternate or just use whichever they have the most of, but I think it's the latter. If they do alternate that makes it easier, because their consumption rates are just half for each all the time. If they use whatever they have more of it's a lot less predictable. If they get cheap beef and high end wheat they are going to use pretty close to full rate beef and hardly any wheat. I'm trying to set that up in my current game, as there is barely enough wheat to supply the places that have to have it and there is way too much beef (due in large part to me not recognizing the issue and building a 2xL cattle ranch).

The combined 'complexes' that produce a variety of weapons or missiles are a different thing, and I haven't figured out their consumption at all. Their production is just a production of one product or the other, and I think it's random though I can't say for sure if it is weighted towards producing whatever it has less of in stock. Single weapon fabs, including IBL, can be found on the complex calculator which will give hourly production and consumption rates. The cycles can be figured out from those.

Masochisto · Post by **Masochisto** » Fri, 6. Sep 13, 20:45

Some single weapon fabs (especially missiles) consume ore and silicon as resources when they do not consume silicon in player made fabs. There are several in Akeela's Beacon.

Either way, things aren't as simple as originally thought.

btw, I overbuilt on wheat, beef and steaks.... but need to give the game time to fill the network to know for sure how much.

TheDeliveryMan · Post by **TheDeliveryMan** » Fri, 6. Sep 13, 21:13

marrok wrote:I have yet to find out how many resources the IBL forges burn for one cycle,

This is for AP (not sure about TC):

3240 Energy Cells
540 Ore
216 Space Fuel

marrok · Post by **marrok** » Sat, 7. Sep 13, 11:13

TheDeliveryMan wrote:This is for AP (not sure about TC):

3240 Energy Cells
540 Ore
216 Space Fuel

Thanks for the info! The complex calculators list only the buildable version from AP which needs Nostrop instead of Space Fuel. 216 is not much, so I can use the Hermes for this. For the ore I will need a Demeter Hauler, but this is not a problem.

I monitored the Light Shield Production Complex in Paranid Prime yesterday and couldn't find any pattern. Whether it produces 1MJ or 5MJ seems to be completely random. It definitely has nothing to do with "which ones are fewer in stock". The only rule seems to be that it always produces the one you don't need. It doesn't make a difference in hourly consumption, it is still a tech fab with the same consumption as other tech fabs.

Masochisto wrote: I've since been concerned that Missile fabs that take both silicon and ore may behave the same way.

These fabs have concerned me too, especially since all missiles produced by the player need ore, not silicon. Your thought sounds plausible, I'll have a look at it when I play next time.

Timsup2nothin · Post by **Timsup2nothin** » Sat, 7. Sep 13, 17:44

marrok wrote: The only rule seems to be that it always produces the one you don't need.

Ain't that the truth!

marrok · Post by **marrok** » Mon, 9. Sep 13, 11:24

OK, here is what I found out about the missiles:

Dumbfire Missile Production Complex in Priest Rings, 240 Dragonflies, 960 Fireflies, 120 Auroras in stock, as well as 292 ore and 188 silicon.

1st cycle: -20 ore, led to +60 Fireflies
2nd cycle: -5 silicon, led to +60 Fireflies
3rd cycle: -20 ore, led to +60 Fireflies
4th cycle: -60 ore, led to +40 Dragonflies
5th cycle: -15 silicon, led to +20 Auroras
6th cycle: -5 silicon, led to +60 Fireflies

I fail to see any pattern here. To me it looks like both decisions are random: which missile is produced and which resource is used for it.

The small network in Weaver's Tempest is up and (after some difficulties with CLS orders) running. I plan to improve credit flow by building another 2 M Wheat Farms and an own M distillery so that I can sell the surplus space fuel using a CAG. After that the whole setup should give me about 580,000 Cr of profit per hour.

Timsup2nothin · Post by **Timsup2nothin** » Mon, 9. Sep 13, 15:23

marrok wrote:OK, here is what I found out about the missiles:

Dumbfire Missile Production Complex in Priest Rings, 240 Dragonflies, 960 Fireflies, 120 Auroras in stock, as well as 292 ore and 188 silicon.

1st cycle: -20 ore, led to +60 Fireflies

2nd cycle: -5 silicon, led to +60 Fireflies

3rd cycle: -20 ore, led to +60 Fireflies

4th cycle: -60 ore, led to +40 Dragonflies

5th cycle: -15 silicon, led to +20 Auroras

6th cycle: -5 silicon, led to +60 Fireflies

I fail to see any pattern here. To me it looks like both decisions are random: which missile is produced and which resource is used for it.

The small network in Weaver's Tempest is up and (after some difficulties with CLS orders) running. I plan to improve credit flow by building another 2 M Wheat Farms and an own M distillery so that I can sell the surplus space fuel using a CAG. After that the whole setup should give me about 580,000 Cr of profit per hour.

Good work.

At 292 ore and 188 silicon how did the resource bars compare? Were they about the same or was one notably higher? In my observation of bakeries I went to one with a lot of one resource and very little of the other and it seemed like they used whatever they have a lot of. Could be a 'weighted random' thing where they mostly use what they have a lot of and sometimes use the other, which balances to be just random when the resources are at similar level.

marrok · Post by **marrok** » Mon, 9. Sep 13, 20:24

Silicon was almost full (203 max), ore was at about 1/3 (832 max).

Such a 'weighted random' thing would really be a pain, totally unpredictable and difficult to manipulate. I think it is highly possible. If the Argons are so in love with their veggie burgers, why don't they just use soya husk?

Timsup2nothin · Post by **Timsup2nothin** » Tue, 10. Sep 13, 00:14

marrok wrote:Silicon was almost full (203 max), ore was at about 1/3 (832 max).

Such a 'weighted random' thing would really be a pain, totally unpredictable and difficult to manipulate. I think it is highly possible. If the Argons are so in love with their veggie burgers, why don't they just use soya husk?

Just gotta set up to supply both and let the pilots handle it. In my game there are just enough pure wheat users to consume all the wheat. When some gets diverted into bakeries those guys just get stuck doing without. Makes them more cooperative about having to pay 50 per unit I would guess.

But, there's just too much cattle production capacity and not much I can do about that. I shut down my own production so my ranch is just a warehouse, moved pricing onto the low side of average at 70/105 and just let it run. Eventually more industry will consume more cahoonas will require more bakeries and I'll build them.

Until then it makes money. Nowhere near as fast as I had hoped it would, but sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.

BankruptAssasin · Post by **BankruptAssasin** » Tue, 10. Sep 13, 00:26

I've started the Boring Boron Game and about 12 hours into it, i have a few TS from the Paranids, im looking to set something like the guides up but i don't know which ware to choose this early in the game, any one any suggestions? Im focusing my area in the West of the Map - Kingdoms End to around CBSE.

Timsup2nothin · Post by **Timsup2nothin** » Tue, 10. Sep 13, 01:02

BankruptAssasin wrote:I've started the Boring Boron Game and about 12 hours into it, i have a few TS from the Paranids, im looking to set something like the guides up but i don't know which ware to choose this early in the game, any one any suggestions? Im focusing my area in the West of the Map - Kingdoms End to around CBSE.

Count factories. M counts two, L counts five. Compare Bogas to Bofu and if Bogas is lower it is a great choice, especially if Bofu is fairly even or lower with Bofu eating fabs.

BankruptAssasin · Post by **BankruptAssasin** » Tue, 10. Sep 13, 09:34

Cheers Tim,

I will look at that when i get home, so far i have decided to be the Ore Supplier in CBSE area, i have parked 3 Traps at the Ore Factories, 2 L & 1 M so i think this can supply 12 factories? I have them buying at 75 and have 1 Seller loading up the Ore and Selling it to all the Munitions Factories in CBSE for 110 - at 375 Full cargo thats only 13,125 profit per run, do you think i could improve on this?

My only issue so far is that the only SPP nearby is in the Ore Belt & it's an M sized one, so it can only supply 2 Factories, i have a CLS here buying the E-cells at 13 & Selling at 17 to the Ore Mines but he can't keep up with demand, i am thinking of making a small complex for E-cell storage and using another CLS Pilot to buy the E-cells from the Power Circle, i would like this guy to jump to the Ore Belt, can this be done and will he keep a reserve of E-cells to keep jumping?

So my plan is to get my CLS E-cell buyer on the Ore Belt to buy the E-Cells from the M SPP if he can, if not he will dock at my Station and load the E-cells from there - this will keep the Ore Mines supplied with E-cells meaning constant production of Ore for my guys to sell to CBSE sectors & even the Quantum Fabs in Home of Light. I also have a CLS Pilot in The Wall or The Hole (the 1 directly beside Argon Prime) supplying CBSE with E-cells, this will hopefully keep those factories ticking over and buying my Ore.

Have i done anything wrong? i feel i am not making as much money as i shud be, the average Ore price is 128 - Im buying and Selling for Lower than that, have any of you guys tried this and done it better?

Timsup2nothin · Post by **Timsup2nothin** » Tue, 10. Sep 13, 16:46

My bad there Assassin. I left something out earlier.

Factory counting gets...complicated...when you look at minerals and e-cells.

Solar plants are completely unique. An M plant produces about 8000 cells per hour which can feed nine standard factories. L=22, XL=44.

Mines built by the player vary depending on the yield of the asteroid. NPC mines are equivalent to a player mine built on a 40 yield 'roid, so they show up as about one and a half of whatever size they are for both e-cell consumption and their production. M counts three and L counts eight.

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As to pricing, you just need to look at your results.

Is your distributor actually keeping the entire market supplied? Or is he actually just supplying the factories close to the top of his waypoint list and then having them ready for another load before he has made deliveries to all the customers? If the customers near the end of his waypoint list aren't being supplied you would want to raise your price to make the early stops wait longer.

What price is he actually seeing when he delivers? He heads out when price is 110, but that price will be higher by the time he arrives as long as they are still running. How much higher depends on how long he takes to get to them. As long as they don't reach 129 while he is in transit they will never buy from an NPC, and even if they just reach it chances are no NPC will beat him to the deal. So look how much the prices are going up while he is in transit and raise your target price so he is arriving at about 129.

Take a look at your traps. Is your guy ever having to wait because they are all empty, or is he actually lagging behind and hardly ever drawing from the third trap on his pickup list because the first one fills back up before he gets to the third one? If he is spending a lot of down time your buy price is to low and NPCs are taking too much of your ore. If he is hardly ever picking up from your third trap you can lower it.

Without knowing any answers here I'm going to take a wild guess that your one delivery guy is really only feeding about four fabs and the ones towards the end of his list never see him...and that your traps are buying way faster than he can move the ore. If I'm right the answer is to spread your pricing out to something like 60/120 and add a second delivery runner.

BankruptAssasin · Post by **BankruptAssasin** » Tue, 10. Sep 13, 17:11

Hi Tim

Im still a little confused about the size of plants can you tell me it in basic terms? I understamd that 1 M SPP can supply 9 normal Stations, but what about Larger stations? does this be halved?

I have only had him runing for about 30 mins real life time, so can't really give too much feed back on his stats at the minute, will have a good go tonight.

So far i have noticed that he has went to 3, the PPC, Tomahawk & i think light shields these were actually near the end of his list, i assume because of the price he could only go to these areas. I was considering getting a second runner to supply the others and make it easier on the first guy as i was aware that some may not get the products, so i may have to acquire a new freighter.

I may also start supplying the area with Cahoona's, i got this idea from your CLS guide so must be needed, I was also thinking that maybe i have the traps in the wrong place, maybe i should have them in the buying stations instead of the ore mines and supply eah of the traps with the ore to automatically supply the station once it hits a certain level, do you think this would work?

Timsup2nothin · Post by **Timsup2nothin** » Tue, 10. Sep 13, 18:28

Hi.

I measure everything in "standard factories" even though the only standard factories really are weapon/tech fabs. They hold 5000 e-cells and use 900 per hour.

Bio and food and some tech fabs come in M (two standard stuck together) and L (five standard stuck together). So they can be counted as two or five for everything, as in an L size food fab supports five standard weapon/tech fabs with food, or five M bio plants support two L food plants.

Mines, as I said before, are affected by asteroid yield with NPCs always building on 40 yield 'roids, so an M size mine will support three standard weapon/tech fabs and an L will support eight.

Whatever their count in standard factories they need that times 900 e-cells per hour. So an L size food fab needs 4500 (900x5) and an M size ore mine needs 2700 (900x3). You can compare that usage to the hourly output of an SPP (8,000/20,000/40,000 roughly) or you can convert the SPP to factories (9/22/44) whichever feels best. I use factories because I like the smaller numbers.

Hope I got that more clear. I've been working with these networks over so many plays that its all sort of automatic so my explaining can be a little weak.

BankruptAssasin · Post by **BankruptAssasin** » Tue, 10. Sep 13, 20:14

No, no need to say sorry, sometimes im just slow to understand things in this game and takes me a while to realize what some people are talking about.

Masochisto · Post by **Masochisto** » Tue, 10. Sep 13, 23:15

Marrok,

Thank you for sharing your observations. For my own game, I have adjusted the estimated mineral consumption of these fabs to be half what I originally estimated them at. The Ore and Silicon market is alot smaller than I thought...

Masochisto · Post by **Masochisto** » Tue, 10. Sep 13, 23:17

Tim,

The more you post the more we learn... I had no idea that NPC mines assumed a base yield of 40! I have been assuming 25 just because that seemed to be a neat 1800 energy per hour consumption for an M sized fab. This compounds the glut of Ore in the universe...

Masochisto · Post by **Masochisto** » Tue, 10. Sep 13, 23:48

Sorry for the lack of updates regarding my game.

My game was sidetracked with a few days of reloading to get the overtuned Hyperion. This is the third time I have reloaded abusively to get that 250ms beauty... but I couldn't help myself. My game was pretty lucky as far as pandora crates goes with more enging crates than rudder crates; some with 5 tunings each. The end result is a Hyperion that goes just over 350... Definately makes me feel like a dirty cheater...

I setup the network for Energy, Beef, Wheat, Steak, Rhimes, Ore & Silicon in the Aladna Hill section including some complexes that produced wheat, beef, steak and minerals. Originally I had them grouped by sector so that all the ships in a sector were owned by that sector. This proved to be difficult to manage because if energy was purchased in one sector and shipped to another the costs were being sunk in that first sector. I could sell energy at the delivery but it is impossible to do that for ore if the delivery is going into a TS, so when I began planning the setup for Argon Prime I decided to group them by ware instead. I also adjusted the old region - but it isn't clean because some of the complexes produce combinations.

Argon prime started with Ore, then Steak, then Energy. I built complexes in all 16 sectors for free parking and to serve as an energy cache. When I setup the Ore and Steak operations I used 6000 volume buyers, 6000 volume distributors and 6000 volume caches with 3000 volume distributors. For energy I had a 20000 volume cache so I setup the distributors to unload upto 6000 after an unload to ensure they never drained energy and it made a huge improvement in the distribution. I've been leaving the game overnight to benchmark the setups (I take notes and reload to the end of my previous session) and energy is outperforming all other wares. I'm unsure if the market is just that much better, or if my energy setup is simply closer to optimal.

I am considering downsizing all my distributors to 3000 ware ships so that they can unload upto 3k after loading to ensure caches are never emptied by a distributor. I was also thinking of upgrading all caches to 9000 volume ships, but I need to do figure out the cost of that vs adding a factory to each complex.

There is a nagging problem with traps still being on standby when I check on them even tho the station they are on is at or below their target price. It crushes my confidence in the whole system...

For all the work in this, I am averaging about 1.5M per hour in my overnight tests. I'll calculate what I should be making next session.

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A discussion about efficient CLS2 configuration in early game.

Whats my best option for the Aladna Hill area early game?