Is cloning cheating?

[Nanook]

... Producing ships for profit doesn't make much sense because the production cost in both cash and resources makes it not worth the hassle.

I call 'nonsense' on this, unless you can prove me wrong with real numbers. It's just that with a single PHQ, it takes too long compared to other methods of making credits. But with many PHQ's operating at once, you're basically printing money if you use your own closed loops to produce the needed resources. No danger of flooding the market with unneeded goods when you can sell infinite ships to the local shipyard.

The only thing remaining is the PHQ itself as a station that basically counts as 1, same as Cahoona Bakery M and PHQ price in the total # of assets. Now, people who think that the last portion is material really still have a lot to learn about X series

Except you're ignoring the salient fact that those not using this exploit have to spend tens, if not hundreds, of millions of credits to get the same docking capability, and storage capacity through docked ships, as your mulitple PHQ's. Those are credits that don't count towards their stats, and credits that can't be used to make more credits. So all other things being equal, someone using your exploit is making credits a lot faster than if they had to buy mulitple Equipment Docks and Trading Stations.

Still, I normally send a couple of fully kitted Boreases per PHQ on "Attack All" to Xenon Core to even that out

Yeah, well I'd be willing to bet that most of those you've 'recruited' to your exploits don't have any such compulsion to "even that out".

[kurush]

I call 'nonsense' on this, unless you can prove me wrong with real numbers.

Here you go:
Aran cost in credits and resources, assuming average price for all wares
130741244
You can sell an empty untuned Aran on a shipyard for
117305773
Only people challenged in math can complain about that "profit"

But with many PHQ's operating at once, you're basically printing money if you use your own closed loops to produce the needed resources.

Yeah, self-sustaining complexes do print money. Sounds like you are forgetting that you can bypass the money losing PHQ here and just sell your stuff on the open market.

Except you're ignoring the salient fact that those not using this exploit have to spend tens, if not hundreds, of millions of credits to get the same docking capability, and storage capacity through docked ships, as your mulitple PHQ's. Those are credits that don't count towards their stats, and credits that can't be used to make more credits.

Huh? Now can you please try to explain how credits spent on this entirely optional docking capability do not count towards stats? I am finding more and more proof for my "those who can't count complain" thesis

your exploits

My exploits!? As far as I know, I am not responsible for any PHQ cloning exploits here. Overtuning - yes. PHQ cloning was always done by other people. I remember some bothersome person who did that for AP.

[kgkosio]

If you NEED to use exploits, you should be playing a different game.

If you need to outfit a ship, build the factories that produce the weapons and shields. They are available for all of the races, including the Terrans.

If the pace of the game is too slow for you, see the top of the post.

If you think you may be "cheating", you are. That is your definition of cheating. It is different for every player. If you don't, so be it.

The game is what you make it. I want a challenge that will test my abilities and determination. I am currently playing the Steam DiD for the 15th time. Only one death was due to a lack of internet connection/bug. I will defeat the White Whale and slay the windmill.

[Nanook]

I call 'nonsense' on this, unless you can prove me wrong with real numbers.

Here you go:
Aran cost in credits and resources, assuming average price for all wares
130741244
You can sell an empty untuned Aran on a shipyard for
117305773
Only people challenged in math can complain about that "profit"

Ah, choosing probably the longest to build and least profitable ship as an example. Of course, this ignores my comment about building closed resource complexes to supply those resources at no cost beyond the initial investment. Typical. Try again with small fighters. Advantage exploiter.

But with many PHQ's operating at once, you're basically printing money if you use your own closed loops to produce the needed resources.

Yeah, self-sustaining complexes do print money. Sounds like you are forgetting that you can bypass the money losing PHQ here and just sell your stuff on the open market.

And as you failed to quote in my previous statement, you can flood the market with most goods, whereas selling ships has no such limit. Advantage exploiter. Try again.

Except you're ignoring the salient fact that those not using this exploit have to spend tens, if not hundreds, of millions of credits to get the same docking capability, and storage capacity through docked ships, as your mulitple PHQ's. Those are credits that don't count towards their stats, and credits that can't be used to make more credits.

Huh? Now can you please try to explain how credits spent on this entirely optional docking capability do not count towards stats? I am finding more and more proof for my "those who can't count complain" thesis

*SIGH* Did you not get the point that credits spent by players on those stations can't be used to build profit making enterprises? It's all about credits over time. The more credits you have at any given time, the more credits you can make. Simple economics, I think. Advantage exploiter.

your exploits

My exploits!? As far as I know, I am not responsible for any PHQ cloning exploits here. Overtuning - yes. PHQ cloning was always done by other people. I remember some bothersome person who did that for AP.

Sorry, you may not have discovered it, but you sure are the one pushing it.

You know, you can rationalize exploiting game bugs all you want, but I think the vast majority of players understand that it's really cheating, especially if someone uses those exploits to gain an unfair advantage in comparative stats or even achievements. I'm sure you'll come up with some pithy responses to this post, but you really aren't convincing anyone who knows better. Are you really just trying to convince yourself it's not cheating?

Anyway, I've had my say, and that's enough. So 'pithy response' away.

[kurush]

Ah, choosing probably the longest and least profitable ship as an example. Typical. Try again with small fighters. Advantage exploiter.

I didn't expect that you don't know that the resource requirements are scaled with the ship price. You have a lot to learn

And as you failed to quote in my previous statement, you can flood the market with most goods, whereas selling ships has no such limit. Advantage exploiter.

Again, it looks like you have to learn a lot about X series A complex to sustain 5-10 PHQ will sell by itself without even a need for CAG. Try saturating the marked with microchips, I failed with 100+ factories. And they comprise the bulk of ship price.

*SIGH* Did you not get the point that credits spent by players on those stations can't be used to build profit making enterprises? It's all about credits over time. The more credits you have at any given time, the more credits you can make. Simple economics, I think. Advantage exploiter.

We are talking about screwing the stats, not about gameplay choices. Yes, you get some nice benefits. No, they don't affect stats in a material way.

Sorry, you may not have discovered it, but you sure are the one pushing it.

I am just asking some math related questions you are failing to answer In fact I never used this exploit in my game and don't even know how to do it properly with freight drones. If there is a claim that multiple PHQ gives you some material stat advantage, doesn't it have to be supported with what exactly this advantage is?

[Nanook]

...Yeah, people who complain are math challenged ...

You know, I can take pretty much all the other 'stuff' you post, but I've about had it with being insulted. If you'd like a formal, official warning, keep it up.

[kurush]

but I've about had it with being insulted.

My sincere apologies for the bad choice of words. Don't you think though that the "math" in your statements just doesn't add up?

[Nanook]

As I said above, prior to your insult, I've had my say about my feelings regarding the exploits and cheating and don't plan on discussing it any further in this thread.

[kurush]

feelings

So, basically, it is about feelings without any math to prove that it actually affect statistics. Fair enough. It was exactly the point I was trying to prove for myself.

[X2-Illuminatus]

Well, just because you deny the facts, doesn't mean they're not valid.

Here you go:
Aran cost in credits and resources, assuming average price for all wares
130741244
You can sell an empty untuned Aran on a shipyard for
117305773
Only people challenged in math can complain about that "profit"

Why do you assume the wares cost anything? If you produce them with a selfsustaining complex running over a long time the costs for wares will go against zero.

You could also just sell the additional HQs, when they're still in the cargo room of your TL class ship. One HQ costs around 190,000,000 Credits. So, that will be a huge boost for your player cash.
If you keep them, they will affect your asset value.
If you build them, you will have additional free money 'storages', which will then, when you have enough money to transfer it to the HQs, have an influence on the station cash statistic. And of course, on the 'stations owned' statistic.

[kurush]

Why do you assume the wares cost anything? If you produce them with a selfsustaining complex running over a long time the costs for wares will go against zero.

I assume the average price because the average price is what you can get from AI traders for all products in a self-sustaining complex for PHQ support with a possible exception of Ore, Silicone and Rastar Oil. Even if you exclude them though, you still get negative ROI from attaching PHQ to that chain. So, basically, PHQ gives a negative "boost" to your assets in this setup. It is really entertaining to see somebody claim it as an "advantage".

One HQ costs around 190,000,000 Credits. So, that will be a huge boost for your player cash.

As I said above, the PHQ price itself is probably the only thing that directly affects the stats. This doesn't look like a big enough amount to upset the balance in a significant way though. I remember getting more from some Xenon defense missions.

You could also just sell the additional HQs, when they're still in the cargo room of your TL class ship. One HQ costs around 190,000,000 Credits. So, that will be a huge boost for your player cash.

Totally agree here, there is a better way of just doing it to jump beacons if you intend to clone wares for the purpose of selling them. I would like to remind though that my question was specifically about having multiple PHQ in the game and not about cloning wares for profit.

[Nanook]

Why do you assume the wares cost anything? If you produce them with a selfsustaining complex running over a long time the costs for wares will go against zero.

I assume the average price because the average price is what you can get from AI traders for all products in a self-sustaining complex for PHQ support with a possible exception of Ore, Silicone and Rastar Oil. Even if you exclude them though, you still get negative ROI from attaching PHQ to that chain. So, basically, PHQ gives a negative "boost" to your assets in this setup. It is really entertaining to see somebody claim it as an "advantage"....

No, what's really entertaining is to see someone desperately trying to claim it's not.

[kurush]

No, what's really entertaining is to see someone desperately trying to claim it's not.

I am not claiming anything, I am trying to understand the reasoning. So far I got only "feeling" with no rationale to back it up. Plus some ridiculous theories of using PHQ for profit that all yield negative ROI. Basically, people claim that they are upset about 2+2 being equal to 5

[Mrreg]

I really thought the point was that you can make essentially free wares with self-sustaining complexes, but your profits would be limited by what the market can use. If you pump those wares into ship building, that profit limitation disappears as you can sell infinite ships to shipyards. Having more HQs would let you produce faster, thus making more truly limitless profit. Even if some of the ships built are worth less than the wares used, those wares might not be able to be sold if the market is too saturated, so building lots of ships would let you get past complete market saturation.

I think it would take a lot of work to totally saturate the market, but take this example:

Player A: completely saturates the game market with their wares, thus making as much profit from sales of wares as possible. Has only 1 PHQ for ship building and thus can only exceed the profit from wares by a certain amount.

Player B: same situation except for having 7 PHQs. Player B can exceed maximum profit from wares by 7 times that of Player A.

Granted that in such advanced situations, said difference would probably be negligible, Player B does retain an advantage. I believe that was the main point.

[X2-Illuminatus]

Self-sustaining complex means I have a complex that produces all wares. Those wares are brought directly to the HQ via own traders. Sold are just the produced ships for a fixed price. There are no AI traders or AI stations (except for the shipyards) in that complex-PHQ chain.
That means I have one (fixed) cost position at the start to set everything up (buying/building stations, buying/equipping ships) that I pay once. But with ongoing game time and ongoing production time I can produce so many ships that the production costs will go against zero.

Totally agree here, there is a better way of just doing it to jump beacons if you intend to clone wares for the purpose of selling them. I would like to remind though that my question was specifically about having multiple PHQ in the game and not about cloning wares for profit.

But just because there is a better way, doesn't mean that the here discussed way isn't 'valid'.

Edit: Ninja'd by Mrreg.

[kurush]

Granted that in such advanced situations, said difference would probably be negligible, Player B does retain an advantage. I believe that was the main point.

If you are hell bent on saturating the market, which as far as I know is not that easy for some wares, you can use the time-honored method of loading chip TS ships with your produce and selling them. My rough guess that the negative effect of ship price discount would be about the same as what you lose on building something in PHQ.
I think the key word here is "negligible". Microchips is the priciest component in the ship produced on PHQ and contrubute roughly the same amount as the # of credits. I wasn't able to saturate MC market with a complex 20 times as big as what you would need for several PHQs. So, basically, we are talking about a a manual task that would give you 1% boost at best, provided that you managed to saturate the market. Now consider that there are much more profitable manual tasks such as missions, stock market, etc Why would somebody bother with that rather than for role-playing reasons?

[kurush]

But with ongoing game time and ongoing production time I can produce so many ships that the production costs will go against zero.

As I explained above, you are actually losing the money by routing your resources to producing ships instead of just selling what your complex produces. This might be not entirely correct in a highly hypothetical scenario when you managed to saturate every single market in the game, but is likely correct for most players.

But just because there is a better way, doesn't mean that the here discussed way isn't 'valid'.

It is, it just wasn't a part of the question I asked.

[ConCorDian]

i dont mean to be the wet blanket here but isn't this getting a little off topic now? i get how it came about but we have now got an entirly new topic going on...

so Cloning, cheating? yea or nae?

[Nanook]

.. My rough guess that the negative effect of ship price discount...

And here lies the flaw in your logic. The only reason you get a "negative effect" is if your rep with a race isn't high enough AND you're not selling that race's ships to their shipyards. That's why your Aran example is the worst you could've chosen. It's extremely hard to max the Goner rep, and the Goners have no shipyard for you to sell to. As I said before, try selling fighters, for example, to a race of that type and who you've maxed your rep with. Getting max rep with a race isn't really very hard, so you should be able to test it very easily. You should get essentially the 'S' price of that ship minus the worth of the minimum shield it normally comes with.

I had this argument, and lost, in Reunion when I was on the side that didn't believe ship sales from the PHQ were profitable. So unless something drastic has changed recently, and I mean in AP, since I'm pretty sure it's basically the same since the latest TC patch, if you meet the above criteria, you will not lose money making ships.

Oh, and by the way, if you clone yourself, say, 7 PHQ's, at a value of 190,000,000 each, and then sell them in a TL, I don't think most players would consider 1.3 billion credits insignificant. And if you're going to clone anyway, why stop at 7? Why not 17, or 70? Since this one station is worth so much more than any other in the game, and more than any ship, it's the perfect object to quickly clone and sell for massive credits. There is no limit. Seems to me it's the perfect vanilla money cheat - no modified tag and pretty much undetectible.

So either way, via ship sales (slower) or direct sale of the station (faster), cloning PHQ's is a massive exploit that gives an unfair advantage in the stats to those that are willing to take advantage of it. You're nitpicking about the method of making exploit money, when the real argument is that it IS a money exploit, no matter how you want to look at it. And since that money can be used to boost one's stats, it also qualifies as a cheat, and a massive one, at that.

[kurush]

And here lies the flaw in your logic. The only reason you get a "negative effect" is if your rep with a race isn't high enough AND you're not selling that race's ships to their shipyards.

I stay corrected. You can get a profit equivalent of ~ one PPC forge by manually selling ships from one PHQ. So, this is what people are getting upset about and call it massive ?