In Search of Hell, Harvester Chronicles I

[doghouse]

I did read your revision earlier, I felt it read much better. I just popped back and read your first submission and then again your revised version.

I'll give you my humble opinion, but I'll only comment on the first paragraph or two.

Comparing the start of the two versions, the revised is so much better at creative imagery, or creating a scene. I could picture the scene in my mind quite easily. For me, that's a plus.

The first I could only imagine feet in mirky watery mud; and you waffled on about the dog, badly.



For the first paragraph, I would change "..her head resting.." to "..., head resting on her backpack...", also remove her father, to just father.

We know it's her head, and it gives ownership to her backpack. Which I feel allows the rest to follow better. Same with the father bit.

For the second paragraph, I'll just say about that beam of sun-light. I think it would be better if it warmed her, than found her. Afterall, using 'stray' suggests moving.

Anyway, just a couple of pointers. Besides, I think the guy above will be far better at giving critique than myself.

Overall, as a reader. I found it a much better read!

[Gavrushka]

Morkonan, if I'd suffered foecal vomit, and submitted that as a replacement, it could hardly have been worse than the original! LOL.... I live, and I learn

Doghouse, I agree on the first paragraph... I have a tendency to over-reference things, and remove them on subsequent drafts; it opens better with that alteration, thank you.

I'm thinking on the second paragraph... Foolish I know, but your suggestion now precludes my use of it! (LOL) - But I will think hard on it.

As I said earlier, it really was a difficult demon to slay as the original prologue was the first prose I had written in nearly three decades. I developed an unnatural closeness to it, twisting it, turning ot, but pointedly refusing to rewrite it... Until now.

It felt like a purge when it went, liberating - but it puts my opening back to first draft again... - I think the first three or four chapters will now need revisiting, and then the whole re-drafting and editing procedure repeated.

[doghouse]

Ah, so it's been a bit of a tough nut, but I'm sure someone wise would say something along the lines of .. "it takes great courage..."

I understand what you say regarding the second paragraph, I chuckled too. Perhaps I should have been more clear, or perhaps not actually have given an exact example for your work. The point was, let the girls senses live.

'Ark at me, like I know what I'm talking about! Perhaps safer if I end all my posts with, "Don't listen to me!".

[Gavrushka]

I think it would be more apt to say I overcame my cowardice, eventually.

The opening of Chapter 1, which is 100 years later, refers to 'what Likra became'... and the sun's benign gaze was used as a link... At present Chapter 1 starts:



Jalikra stepped through the portal, into the land of men and stood, arms outstretched. She tilted her head back, looking up towards a sun that returned her gaze, briefly recapturing the memory of being alive, of being mortal. She laughed as she remembered running as a child through a forest, maybe even this forest, barefoot, the dew-laden grass beneath her feet, chasing Syul.


Doghouse, you do know what your talking about; I look forward to hearing more and I have shed all my preconceptions to listen to people and, where necessary, make adjustments.

I've made a lot of adjustments of recent!

[doghouse]

As a reader, I'd say that's one hell of a subtle link, and probably missed. I think readers will take away from that paragragh, that she remembers a life before now. Along those lines anyway.

Chapter 1 did pique my interest though, as a story. I'm quite partial to fantasy too.

I know what I'm talking about? Well, ensure you bracket me as an avid reader; and not confuse me as someone knowledgable in the field! Ha.

But it is a good thing to listen to people. I think Morkonan already stated you shouldn't be offended by what is said. True. We're all different afterall, and we have preferences for what we read. Some prefer lots of dialogue, some don't (like myself. I don't want to read lots of dialogue, people waffling on; it just doesn't interest me.)

Who's right, and who's wrong?

Anyway, I'm sure you're more than aware of that. I think my 'waffling' aids a loss of focus for this thread...

[Gavrushka]

It's not really a link, more a mini-theme and any link would be more subliminal than anything...

doghouse, if you enjoy fantasy, then you have all the qualifications you need to comment on the story- I do wish I could bring you in the reader group, and send you copy, but propagation is a worry even though there is an international convention protecting intellectual copyright.

It would be great to revisit this thread in the months to come and ask for addresses to send published copies too, but that is a pipe dream currently.

Harvester is a good storyline, and will span several volumes- I finished book 1 some months ago, but it needs revision - I am working on the fourth draft now, but the emphasis will be on improving the opening chapters... IF I can relate the story far better than I currently have, then it will be published on merit, of that I do feel confident... BUT I really do appreciate that MAY be beyond my current ability; it won't stop me trying though.

[doghouse]

I like that, sumbliminal!

Thanks for the consideration for your reader group, but really, it's ok. Afterall, I'm a complete stranger. I could well have nefarious intentions!

Besides, I have a back-log of books.

Just to note interestingly or not, my last rampage fantasy spree was Robert Jordans' "The wheel of time" series. Damn well enjoyed that. But I am heavily reading sci-fi (last ten books, for eg. Perhaps with the oddity inbetween).

Pipe-dream or not, it's a goal!

I wish you the best for your Harvester series. A book finished already too. Things sound promising.

[greypanther]

Deleted as un-needed.

[Morkonan]

...It felt like a purge when it went, liberating - but it puts my opening back to first draft again... - I think the first three or four chapters will now need revisiting, and then the whole re-drafting and editing procedure repeated.

Now it is new. Now it is as it should be. Now it is a creative work instead of an ancient golden calf. Now you can be a writer again instead of just a custodian!

Don't you feel better?

@ Morkonen: With the proviso that I have not read the whole thread, your comments have a certain coldness about them. You say: " writing is, after all, a business ". Is this really your view? How cold and if you will forgive me, shallow. I am disapointed. Sad

Understand the context in which I mean that.

Writing is a "business." You produce a product through your labor. That product is intended to be sold to a customer. It is you hope that the customer finds value in it and desires you to produce more product.

Yes, that's a sad, clinical view of writing. But, it's the truth. That doesn't mean that the work doesn't have other value. Sometimes, it's even the heady, emotional, though-provoking, spiritual or ephemeral qualities of the work that makes it a desired product. But, for whatever the reason, it is a product that you are producing for consumption. At least, if you ever intend to have anyone else read it... If you're going to keep it locked up in a drawer, you can view it as a personal exercise or whatever you wish. But, if you're trying to make it appeal to others, you have to understand your product and your customer.

The idea is not as cold as you think it is. But, in order to make it to publication, books have to be sold. They have to be sold to the editor who finds within them something that is either worth selling or that the public will buy, even though it's not worth selling... Then, they have to be sold to the publisher, who will invest a substantial portion of funds to seeing that the book is appropriately printed, marketed and distributed. Then, they have to be sold to their Retailers, who will then attempt to sell the book to customers, hoping to attract enough business to pay for stocking the book in their stores or managing their website traffic.

But, that doesn't mean that we don't become emotionally involved with reading or even writing books. That doesn't mean that a book or a story doesn't have any higher significance or nothing important to offer anyone simply because it has been sold. Quite often, books are works of "Art" and have more value than just the sum of their parts. All avid readers have run across such books and their impact on us has not been sanitized by a price-tag on their cover.

I do keep getting the nagging feeling that I have encountered you before....

I just joined this site recently. But, I have used this same handle on some other gaming sites. I use a different one on some science related sites.

[Gavrushka]

I do feel better... It felt like one of those cathartic moments you have with your counsellor when you finallly accept 'it's not your fault' kind of thing.

I think I will keep the rotting corpse of that first draft though.


There is another forum user, in off topic, who has worked on a story for many years... It is good, entertaining and, from what I read, it felt complete. He is currently revising it, and it was from him I first heard the phrase, 'slaughtering your babies'. It seemed horrific and pointless, but I finally understand.

One of my favourite authors is working on the sequel to a best selling book and recently she tweeted 'editing Angelopolis seems to mean rewriting it'... Editing, to me, had meant removing grammar issues and a few tidy ups....

...Not any more.

As regards writing as a business, I am in qualified agreement... There is one point writing is not a business to me, and that is when I write fresh words. - Then the experience is quite indescribable, my immersion so complete I have thoughts for nothing but the events, which I do no more than record, initially with pen and paper.

[Gavrushka]

I'm moving through and making some edits to chapter 1... -I have posted a brief snippet from it in the hope I am doing it right:

[Gavrushka]

CHAPTER 1


Jalikra stepped through the portal, into the land of men and stood, arms outstretched. She tilted her head back, looking up towards a sun that returned her gaze, briefly recapturing the memory of being alive, of being mortal. She laughed as she remembered running as a child through the forest, maybe even this forest, barefoot, the dew-laden grass beneath her feet, chasing Syul.

The memory faded as purpose engulfed her. She had three to harvest. One was smug in the knowledge he had escaped justice; the second was deluded it was all for a greater ‘good’.

But the third... The third was an evil so intense as to defy description; she felt she could almost reach out and grasp it. Jalikra could feel its influence even though it lay so many miles to the north. That one was not smug; it was expectant, waiting for something. She would harvest that one last.

Jalikra was a Demon. She was almost seven feet tall, beautiful in an exotic way, lithe and slender. Her eyes were a solid black, like polished obsidian, tilted slightly upwards and deep set in a face the colour of porcelain. Ears that would be more at home on an elf sat high up on the sides of her head, standing proud of flame red hair that tumbled unruly half way down her back and over her shoulders. Heavily muscled arms, for a female, ended in fingers tipped with inch long razor talons. A top and trousers of dark leather and matching knee boots emphasised the paleness of her skin yet further. Twin swords were cross-sheathed on her back, the pommels extending above either shoulder, poking through her long hair.

She turned in the direction of her first harvest and broke into a run, her long legs driving her forward at a speed few horses could match. Certainly none could in this dense forest.

===

The hunter watched from behind a fallen oak. He was motionless apart from his heart trying to beat its way out of his chest. She pased by, less than two hundred feet from where he lay hidden. She merely had to turn her head, and he would be seen. His father said a demon could bore the truth out of your skull merely by looking at you, and he had no reason to doubt that.

She did not turn her head.

He counted to one hundred, before standing. Soon, some other poor innocent would have his soul ripped from his body, just as his uncle’s had been. This event had inspired his father to form the Soul Guardians. They had one aim, to destroy Hell.

A decade of waiting, and now justice could be served. His father would be pleased.

===

Within minutes, she was out of the forest and in an open meadow where, not far in front of her, sat a Shepherd. His back was to her and his attention focussed on a piece of wood he was carving. Jalikra walked towards him, to within a few feet of him. His focus remained on the piece of wood. She walked past him and heard the satisfying shriek as he noticed her. After taking another step, Jalikra stopped. She stood with her back to him, willing the grin off her face. An effort that took several seconds, several wonderful tension-filled seconds.

She turned slowly, ever so slowly, to face him. He was far from tall, being generous perhaps five feet four, and in his early twenties. He had dark unkempt hair and the makings of a beard struggling to gain prominence on his slender face. It was a face that made his broad nose look all the wider. His dark eyes were presently framed by an alarming amount of white.

“Well?” she said simply. “You do know why I am here?”

“Oh the Gods forgive me!” he cried. “They look so much alike, and I had been drinking. I swear I did not know it was my wife’s Sister, both times I didn’t. I swear it!”

“Both times?” Jalikra said through lips battling hard against a grin.

“Well, maybe the second time I had my doubts...”

Jalikra grabbed at her waist and howled with laughter.”Mortal, if I were to harvest souls based on mans infidelity my work would never be done.”

“I only kissed her,” he said defensively.[1]

Jalikra doubled over with further fits of laughter as the poor shepherd torn between fear and amazement sat and watched her, still clutching his half-carved piece of wood.

She dug into a belt pouch and produced two gold coins. She tossed them to the shepherd, and they landed at his feet.

“I think one for each of them, don’t you?” she said with a smirk.

“Yes Mistress Demon!” he replied. “Yes of course. Thank you kindly!” He bent and picked them up. His mind focussed on the two coins, one in each hand, whilst at his feet lay a forgotten wooden carving, exquisitely detailed, of a water nymph.

She turned to go but the shepherd leapt to his feet. “Wait Mistress Demon! I am sorry to delay you but I have to ask, are you Jalikra?”

Surprised, Jalikra swung back round, still smiling. “How do you know my name mortal?”

“Well truth be known, I’d not be here, if not for you. It was you that saved my grandfather from being hanged forty odd years gone in yonder village.” The shepherd pointed off to his left. “Bran was his name, and you saw justice done that day and made sure he was released. Well his head was in such a spin he’d never said thank you at the time, and it sure plagued him over the years. I just want to say it for him now. Thank you.”

The shepherd stood before her, panting hard after such a long speech, glimpsing up at her face before staring back down at his feet.

“What is your name, shepherd?” she asked.

“Stefan, Mistress Demon,” he replied, raising his eyes to meet hers once more.

“Well Stefan, assuming he is still alive, you make sure that you let Bran know that I accept his thanks,” she said, placing a hand on Stefan’s shoulder.

“Oh he is, he is and I’ll tell him this evening,” Stefan replied, beaming broadly.

With another laugh, she nodded a farewell and resumed her journey, running across the meadow even faster now she was clear of the forest. The Shepherds flock scattered before her, although some were not quick enough to react to the speed of her almost silent passage and those she leapt over.

===

Stefan grasped the two gold coins and stared at them in disbelief. As he looked up, Jalikra was just disappearing into the trees on the far side of the meadow. He placed the coins in his pouch and gave a little chuckle to himself. He found a suitable piece of wood and began stripping the bark off it; by this evening, he would have a good likeness of Jalikra carved into it to present to Bran when he related the day’s events.

He had barely begun carving when the snap of a branch behind him turned his head. Out of the forest came a man, Georg. He knew the man by sight, but little more. Stefan stood and raised a hand in greeting but Georg had already set off at a run along the edge of the meadow without so much as an acknowledgement. He knew Georg, and his father, from the Order of the Soul Guardians the fools had founded. They were harmless enough, but such a waste of their lives, so desperately misguided.

“A strange day indeed,” he muttered to himself and resumed carving.


====


[1] yeh, I know... I thought it sounded better with it there.

[Morkonan]

I do feel better... It felt like one of those cathartic moments you have with your counsellor when you finallly accept 'it's not your fault' kind of thing.

I think I will keep the rotting corpse of that first draft though.

Excellent! It can serve you as a reminder that it is never too late for a fresh start. Let it be your personal albatross.

He is currently revising it, and it was from him I first heard the phrase, 'slaughtering your babies'. It seemed horrific and pointless, but I finally understand.

That's an oft-quoted phrase by writers and it's definitely true, especially during final revisions. Wonderful sidekicks that have taken over minor plots and need to be shot.. Great scenes that took weeks to write, but go nowhere and add nothing to moving the story along.. Dumb interludes that got left in the manuscript during Draft #3, but should have been taken out by Draft #2... etc, etc, ad nauseum The final product is often 3/4 as long or even only half as long as the second draft, depending on whether you are a plotter or non-plotter and how good you are at cutting to the chase from the start.

One of my favourite authors is working on the sequel to a best selling book and recently she tweeted 'editing Angelopolis seems to mean rewriting it'... Editing, to me, had meant removing grammar issues and a few tidy ups....

...Not any more.

Well, ideally, grammar and spelling and all that jazz is something you correct as you go along through drafts. The main idea of editing is to take the stream of consciousness that is basically your first rough draft and then see if you can make it good. I don't mean "Better" because it's often the case that the first draft is a heaping pile of confusing junk. Well, I suppose I shouldn't say "often." But, let's just say that it wouldn't be unlikely for it to be the case for any writer.

Imagine you're building a car. You've got the frame, the engine, the comfy seats and a transmission already stuck together, but none of the working parts really work yet. So, you arrange things so that you can at least start the engine and get the windshield wipers working. Once that's done, you start giving it a tune up, get the timing fixed, check all the fluid levels, make sure all the Made in China stickers are off the parts, etc.. By the time you're ready to put a few coats of deep gloss paint on it, it's already a purring powerhouse, ready to hit the track. Once the finishing touches are done, you stick it on the car lot and see if anyone is interested in buying it... The rule of thumb tends to be five full revisions, sometimes more, sometimes left, depending on the writer, their skill and their style.

As regards writing as a business, I am in qualified agreement... There is one point writing is not a business to me, and that is when I write fresh words. - Then the experience is quite indescribable, my immersion so complete I have thoughts for nothing but the events, which I do no more than record, initially with pen and paper.

I agree! I often write as entertainment. Sometimes I will stare at the screen for an eternity, doing nothing but thinking of possibilities. Then, in a flurry of clickety-clacking coming from the keyboard, text magically appears on the screen. Sometimes, it reads like I thought it would. Sometimes, it does not. When it doesn't, I leave it and come back to it later so I'll have a fresh perspective. But, when it does read as I thought it would and the imagery that I wanted to evoke comes to mind easily, the sense of satisfaction is difficult to describe.

[Morkonan]

Woot! Now we're getting somewhere! Very interesting!

I wrote up a few things, but then thought better before submitting them.

A couple I kept:

1) "Jalikra stepped through the portal, into the land of men and stood, arms outstretched. " = "Jalikra stepped through the portal into the land of men and stood, arms outstretched." or "Jalikra stepped through the portal, into the land of men, and stood with her arms outstretched. " ie: just grammar fixes

2) "But the third... The third was an evil so intense as to defy description; she felt she could almost reach out and grasp it. Jalikra could feel its influence even though it lay so many miles to the north. That one was not smug; it was expectant, waiting for something. She would harvest that one last. "

Reach out and grasp it sounds a bit weak, here, for the imagery you're trying to evoke. A suitable word for that phrase would be "tangible." In other words, it was a "tangible evil."

There are "Phrase Books" out there, but I haven't come across any recently and didn't buy the only one I've ever seen on a shelf. Basically, you look up a word and there are phrases that demonstrate what that word could mean. They're for helping you do exactly what I just did - Find a word that "means" what the chosen phrase implies. So, take the word "tangible" and work it in so that your finished paragraph say's exactly what it said before you revised it.

ie: "But the third - The third was a tangible evil that defied further description. She could feel its influence, many miles away to the north. That one was not smug; it was expectant. It was waiting for something. She would harvest that one last." One word can save a string of words. Sometimes it is better, sometimes it isn't. Wordcount gets important as you get closer to the end of writing the book and that's A Good Thing ™ - It helps develop discipline and encourages creativity. Of course, one could take that to the extreme and write an entire book that consisted of just one word. What would that word be? Well, it's obvious - "Be."

3) "...Jalikra was a Demon. She was almost seven feet tall, beautiful in an exotic way, lithe and slender. Her eyes were a solid black, like polished obsidian, tilted slightly upwards and deep set in a face the colour of porcelain. Ears that would be more at home on an elf sat high up on the sides of her head, standing proud of flame red hair that tumbled unruly half way down her back and over her shoulders. Heavily muscled arms, for a female, ended in fingers tipped with inch long razor talons. A top and trousers of dark leather and matching knee boots emphasised the paleness of her skin yet further. Twin swords were cross-sheathed on her back, the pommels extending above either shoulder, poking through her long hair. .."

Here, it may be better to describe her form as you go along, rather than detailing it off like a grocery list. (No insult implied at all, I hope you know that.) So, for instance, work the description of her physical for into the tale or, instead of painting a "Still Life", paint a moving one with descriptions coupled with natural observations anyone would make. Going point-by-point often works. But, you may find a way to make it better, more colorful, more interesting.

* - Note: I had worked in a bit of sample text. But, I wanted first to say that if you do not appreciate such things, I completely understand. Any text I would offer is not "mine" anyway. I'm just using a bunch of free words I found on my keyboard... I didn't copyright any of them, so their particular combination is free to be used by anyone. And, they're offered in that same spirit. Use them or not. Hash them, cut them up, use them for a framework for a thesaurus session, add, remove or discard them entirely. Either way you choose, I'll be just as supportive. I don't offer them as inclusions or edits, just as examples of particular ideas I am not talented enough to explain otherwise.

Also, "polished obsidian" is one of those "cliche'd phrases." You read it everywhere. Likewise "twin pools of despair" and all that jazz. See if you can relate the description using a metaphor/simile that is particularly striking. At the moment, there's one that is tickling my brain, an outstanding one by an author I can't remember. I can't draw it into the light, just now. But, maybe I'll remember or look it up later. It was one of those "OMG THAT'S AWESOME" phrases which was perfect for describing eyes. As you probably know, every author describes someone's eyes in a story. Somewhere, somehow and at some point in a story, at least one or more characters gets their eyes snatched out of their sockets and handed to a reader for examination. Every single story has a description of someone's or something's eyes, no exceptions. That's why it's so damn hard to describe them - All the descriptions have already been written to death! (Everything has already been written, anyway.) So, coming up with new phrases for often described things is very hard. If you can't find one that works, the best choice is to always leave whatever it was you already wrote and to save yourself the agony. Plus, you don't want a particular presumptuous phrase either, especially if the rest of the work isn't written so presumptuously.

"at home on an elf." - What's an elf? In other words, "at home on an elf" doesn't quite have meaning, yet, in the story. "Elfish ears" might be only slightly better, if at all. In this case, I would probably suggest using a straight-out physical description. ie: "long ears that tapered to a wicked point" or "small pointed ears were high on her head, giving her face an elfish cast" or "her pointed ears" etc.. IOW, you could have said "Vulcan ears" just as easily and it may have been just as startling to read as "at home on an elf." But, if there ARE elves in the story, then it's completely OK to use the phrase. The reader will expect that "elf" will appear later in the book from your description. even though many people are familiar with mythological elves, not all mythological elves are the same. Even fictional ones widely differ. Tokien's elves are long lived, emotionally depressed, sometimes psychotic humans who just happen to have pointed ears and like living in the wilderness. Eastern European elves, as I understand, can be more like squat, ugly, sometimes hairy humanoids and often with cruel dispositions, much like the little creature in the Harry Potter movies/series. (Gnome?)

****

So far, this is good stuff and much, much better than what you had in the beginning! That means "improvement" and I can tell you have improved and released some creative tension, simply by contrasting what you have written earlier and what you are writing now. Excellent! Good job and keep that enthusiasm going! Sure, you might mess up, here and there. But, everyone does and it's part of the job description. Just remember - It's the race that is important to you. Finishing it is a formality that we all must eventually succumb to. But, for now it's a race! Stretch your legs and enjoy it!

[doghouse]

Was a good read, but there are things that as a reader irked.

The use of 'Elf' brought me to a shuddering halt (think 'Argon Prime'). Unless of course the world of Jalikra has such. Better to consider the shape the ear and describe it.

"Heavily muscled arms, for a female". Just doesn't fit. When I went back to re-read the paragraph, your description of her physical form is disjointed.

This might help. I draw a fair bit. Consider objects as layers. Start with form/shape and then address basic details; add advanced details last as a means to create the important focus of the object. In writing, this will help the reader to better visualize. I hope that made sense?

Mork. picked up on both points anyway.

The paragraph "Within minutes, she was [...]" Kill the repitition. Him, him, him.

As for Jalikra as a character (if I may be bold to comment). I am finding her interesting enough and see a fair bit of scope. I can understand her arrogance and condescending manner towards 'mortals', I wonder if her jovial manner is a by product of being a demon, or an innocence of previous youth. As a reader, I'd be keen to discover the deeper complexities...

Just a couple of points, I hope it helped.

[Gavrushka]

Damn, this is hard! - NO don't argue, it really is hard!

I've made most of the corrections suggested, and I think I'm going to get some help on other oops... - I've posted around 3,500 words of story, yet there are over 165,000 already written on this AND a further 25,000 on the second Harvester book...

I looked at the muscular arms and thought why? - Then I realised I wanted to talk about her talons, so started with her arms.... The comment was throwaway to get to those Talons, and woeful...

Elves are folklore, and this story is set in that mythos... - So it does have meaning...

I've compacted the description, splitting into three - Her physical description stays, with reduced verbosity and her spray on outfit gets a mention later, and her talons later still. - It is not ideal, but it is movement.

Jalikra is the main protagonist, although several major threads do spring up... Her character develops as the story progresses, and I'd need spoilers to say more...

Incidentally, until the middle ages demons were seen as neutral beings at worst, or even benign... Whereas Angels were not quite such pleasant creatures... At least not all of them.

I will not post more of the story on here, but I offer heartfelt thanks for such an unexpected depth of help... - I've learnt more in the last couple of weeks, than in the preceeding 12 months!