Mulitplayer

[Sareth01]

The X-series used to have a multriplayer mode. Just they called it EVE Online out of humility...

The fact that EVE ships have like no actual control and therefore you don't really feel in control of your ships at all...

I HATED that about eve and that is why I never liked it.

[Mightysword]

Actually, the main choke point that prevent MP in X, at least on large scale is because it's simulated combat.

Not at all... Simulations are mostly visualization work, which is simply client based.

No, I'm not talking about visual. Every single bullet in X have to be calculate individually, their speed, their direction, did they hit something, did they travel far enough to diperse ...etc... it's physical model. A fully armed M7 firing all gun have to simulate more data then a fleet of cruiser in Eve.

This is why all MMO have to use stat based combat instead of simulated combat, no consumer server can handle it on large scale.

[ragamer]

A fully armed M7 firing all gun have to simulate more data then a fleet of cruiser in Eve.

This is why all MMO have to use stat based combat instead of simulated combat, no consumer server can handle it on large scale.

Ah I got you now... Indeed, number of proyectiles is an issue... But not entirely unsolvable... A proyectile is a "predictable" event with a fixed animation, constant speed and doesn't maneuver. Each client can perfectly simulate the animation without extra traffic... You can even "compact" them more if you substitute "proyectiles" by barrages (Individual proyectile drifts would need to be removed although)...

...But yes this kind of "issues" is what makes developing a multiplayer mode something totally different from the SP experience.

[Mightysword]

A fully armed M7 firing all gun have to simulate more data then a fleet of cruiser in Eve.

This is why all MMO have to use stat based combat instead of simulated combat, no consumer server can handle it on large scale.

Ah I got you now... Indeed, number of proyectiles is an issue... But not entirely unsolvable... A proyectile is a "predictable" event with a fixed animation, constant speed and doesn't maneuver. Each client can perfectly simulate the animation without extra traffic

This has a hazard of lagging and accuracy. First, even if it's predictable it means little on the client size, while you can tell where the bullet is, you can't tell it would hit something or not. Second a prohability system will not work, simulated combat means player rely mostly on visual cue to adjust their shot, did they score a square hit or barely hit, if the missed, how far did they miss. Third, adding the syncronization issue and you have some fantastic lag to consider.

[RavenIII]

Anyone notice that the - much maligned - fact that one can __fly__ only 1 ship, makes XRB a step closer to MP?

To tell you the truth, I don't want an X-MMO, but a co-op MP universe would be something that most people want to see happening. XR is still a long way from being MP-capable, but the first 2 steps have been made (no SETA and single player ship).

This basically, it'd be awesome to get a real player co-piloting or using other drones

@ragamer: much ado about nothing? You're basically agreeing with me. I didn't go into too much detail but you've just described a same difference scenario. Basically, my main irk with your first mention is...

You need a protocol able to clone universe data to all players connected.

You contradict yourself in your reply to me and then further replies, because you don't really need a protocol to clone all data to every player, you send what the client needs and requests; data on demand really. The server keeps track of all the long-term stuff (stations, ships, objects, what have you) and just relays stuff in the vicinity of players or wherever they need info from (remote sector viewing). The player can't interact with the whole universe at any one point, they aren't omnipresent; though they may need info on their property locations and actions throughout the universe (traders for example).

No doubt, its all still a lot of data - and MMOs couldn't reach the same level. On the sector map, even in X3TC you'll see there are update cycles - once every few seconds IIRC.

Regardless, I was never interested in an X MMO, I'm much more interested in an X Coop or private servers; I always find playing with random folk far more stressful and annoying than it ever needs to be when I have a community of fine folk who know me and my play styles.

[ragamer]

First, even if it's predictable it means little on the client size, while you can tell where the bullet is, you can't tell it would hit something or not. Second a prohability system will not work, simulated combat means player rely mostly on visual cue to adjust their shot, did they score a square hit or barely hit, if the missed, how far did they miss. Third, adding the syncronization issue and you have some fantastic lag to consider.

Erm... Conflict solving can be performed at client side (I have seen it working... But it's extremely vulnerable to client hacking)...

...It's far safer to transfer confilct-solving to the Server instead, that way every client will be perceiving the same results and will be dedicated to just represent the data sent from the server and sending the commands of the player (The 1st safety mechanism is using a concurrent timeline, so "effective timestamps" can be used so "events" happen at the same time in all the clients involved).

When latency happens the client suffering from it sees a "corruption" in his perception and his commands arrive late to the server... That's unavoidable (How each protocol deals with this, specially the default actions when data is late, is what the users perceive as "latency behaviour") . That's why it's so critical to control the data rate needed... To be sure you can cope with the demand and still every client can create a smooth experience for their respective player.

[ragamer]

The player can't interact with the whole universe at any one point, they aren't omnipresent; though they may need info on their property locations and actions throughout the universe (traders for example).

Oh... They can... It's a bit convoluted but here goes how it works... Property Menu, 1 fighter on each sector of the universe -> Broadcast "all my properties" -> Make "other player race" my enemy.

...There you go, the nightmare of a MMO (In fact some simmilar tests I made with turrets yield very nice freezes on the SP game as each "fighting" turret triggered a lot of self made, and badly made, scripts )...

...Now you have an Universe-wide event (potentially affecting the properties of EACH present player and that EACH player will be interested in perceiving... At least in the form of the anoying "your [property] is under attack").

Then you have the simple fact that EACH connected player may be remote-controlling a sector in realtime... Another anoyance... Just the bigger chunk of information that potentially ALL players can request at the same time and can't be multicasted, as each player can be seeing different sectors.

This are examples... On why a certain gameplay can't be straightforward ported to Multiplayer.

[Mightysword]

@ragamer: yes, I am aware of the problems you said, however that's just to prove my point about existing problem. My example is a very simple concept but at the same time, also a core concept of the game - the combat system. Unless you can find a satisfy way to address it, like I said chance is the combat system will have to be re-designed.


A lot, if not most people asking for MP think it as simple as replace the AI pilot and put in the player in the cockpit, create a network facility and all good to go. Even if Egosoft have the resource and skill to come up with the MP infrastructure in a gipsy, that doesn't mean the game will make sense going from SP to MP. For example with the current games: going straight to MP from SP will mean:

- Any weapon beyond the PAC will become useless.
- Fighting between 2 players control M6 and above will never see a hit scored. Unless again, they mount with fighter class weapon.


These are thing that have to be considered when you move from a SP oriented design to a MP design, it's not just the network that is the problem.

[LTerSlash]

The only way to ever see multiplayer in a X game will be if they decide to release the source code of the older X games... as they arent using that game engine anymore it whould be kind if they start releasing the code to the comunity. Unless they are afraid (seeing what a few people have done with Freespace 2 source code, i whould be).

[a6214622]

Does it really have to be massive competitive multiplayer though? One thing that always prevented me from enjoying the X series fully was the lack of cooperative multiplayer, not competitive one. If I wanted to mindlessly pew-pew random dumdums all day long, I'd buy Call of Duty, Halo, or some other console FPS trash.

On PC, I almost hate playing with random people. In fact, nearly everyone I know does. I have a couple of permanent co-op buddies who can manage nearly infinite gaming sessions without any problems. Anno, Civilization, ARMA, Total War series, Sins of Solar Empire, you name it. If X Rebirth or any other X game added even the most basic henchman system for 2 to 4 players , it would be the best thing imaginable for all of us. A system like this shouldn't be that hard to implement, and it wouldn't diminish the singleplayer in any noticeable way. Why not add it for those of us who really want one?

[CBJ]

Well, it seems we have a new forum, but the same old arguments and misunderstandings about the reasons why there has yet to be a multi-player game in based on the X Universe, and about what might or might not be a viable option in the future, are apparently still alive and kicking.

Anyway, the little FAQ I wrote a couple of years ago may be quite old now, but the reasons it sets out are still just as relevant to X Rebirth as they were to previous games. I don't think I've seen any points in this thread that are not already covered there, but feel free to point out any I've missed.

[Skeeter]

Well it is a popular subject CBJ and ALOT of players expected mp finally in a x game after such a long time having none and 5 games later in the x series and still no mp type of gameplay. I just wish everyone would not base mp to mean mmo as no one wanted that.

I would leave this topic CBJ and just let people dream of mp in here. One topic for all the mp discussions in here and merge any others in here if they pop up would be my idea of keeping it contained. Just a suggestion.

[a6214622]

[T]he real reason there is no multi-player: because the money to undertake that development has never been available. ... The only way a LAN-based game would be likely to happen would be as a side-effect of the development of an MMO game, or as a stepping stone on the way to one. Why? Because profit from additional sales of a LAN-based game over and above the sales that would be made with just single-player functionality, couldn't possibly hope to pay back the cost of developing the multi-player element.You don't need to take my word for it: if it were a profitable model then you can be pretty sure there'd have been a Freelancer 2 by now!

With all due respect, this part of the explanation sounds completely bogus. First of all, it doesn't take much talent, money, or time to implement most basic multiplayer functionality. I would know. Even I don't code much nowadays, I single-handedly created a multiplayer component for a small-scale indie game back in 2001. It may not be easy, especially when you don't have much experience, but it's certainly not THAT hard or time-consuming as some made it out to be. But don't take my word for it: 1993's Doom, 1994's Transport Tycoon, 1994's Wing Commander: Armada and hundreds and hundreds of other even more ancient, obscure, low-budget or indie titles have multiplayer. Are you really saying that a mature, independent, professional game development studio like Egosoft isn't capable of implementing such a commonplace feature for almost no cost? Really?

Of course, second of all, with X Rebirth being the 6th product in the X universe, if Egosoft had bothered create the framework back in 1999, countless man-hours would have already been saved from not having to moderate or participate in endless discussions like this.

[CBJ]

With all due respect, things have changed a bit since 2001. Even back then this series had challenges that would have made it rather different to the majority of games which only need to concern themselves with a few objects in relatively small "universe" at any one time. So yes, I really am saying that it could not be done for "almost no cost". Do you really think I'd create work for myself on the forums by making this stuff up?

[Cycrow]

the more complex the game is, the more complex the multiplayer componant will be, the more data the game uses, the more work is required, both to implment and to test

you say no cost, but as you said, they are professional development studio, which means any time spent to plan, code and test costs money as well as take development time away from other areas

[em3e3]

With all due respect, this part of the explanation sounds completely bogus. First of all, it doesn't take much talent, money, or time to implement most basic multiplayer functionality.

Aye, there's the crux of the matter. While it doesn't take much to implement multiplayer (there's free engines that do it, for goodness sake!), the X series has never been about 'simple'. As some have mentioned, maybe this incarnation brings us one (or more) step closer, it's still a very complex game. You're not talking about Pv8 or Pv16 - more like PvNPCvP^8 (that's player-versus-NPC-versus-Player to the eighth power). Something like this has to be handled either via a central server farm, or through a complex distributed computing structure. Neither of which is 'simple', 'inexpensive', or 'quick'.

Do you all really want a 'farmville' version of the X series?

[Skeeter]

It still seems like you are trying to justify the no mp because of the complexity of the game and the amount of objects. Well what happens in the single player doesn't necessarily mean thats what it will be in the mp aspect of the game. All players want is to fight in a game not build of have thousands of objects to track type of game at all just a mp map a ship and a scoreboard for dogfights using the x games gfx. Take freespace 2, freelancer, any decent space games mp gameplay and use it for a mp mode for a x game as that is all really what people would have liked to do in a x game. Have the complex part for yourself and then have a fight with randoms or mates in some mp maps with a static map i.e no tracking objects, static stations which you can repair on maybe and upgrade and you earn money through kills or loot.

[A5PECT]

It still seems like you are trying to justify the no mp because of the complexity of the game and the amount of objects. Well what happens in the single player doesn't necessarily mean thats what it will be in the mp aspect of the game.

But if you take all of those aspects out of the game, is it really X anymore? To be honest, if you cut down any of the X-series into solely their combat aspects, they'd be pretty crappy games.

All players want is to fight in a game not build of have thousands of objects to track type of game at all just a mp map a ship and a scoreboard for dogfights using the x games gfx.

Speak for yourself. If there is going to be a multiplayer X game, I want all or nothing. I not only want to fight with and against my friends, I want to be able to compete and co-operate economically and politically. If I can't get that level of multifariousness then there's no point in making X multiplayer; just create a new IP and build that from scratch.

[Mightysword]

It still seems like you are trying to justify the no mp because of the complexity of the game and the amount of objects. Well what happens in the single player doesn't necessarily mean thats what it will be in the mp aspect of the game. All players want is to fight in a game not build of have thousands of objects to track type of game at all just a mp map a ship and a scoreboard for dogfights using the x games gfx. Take freespace 2, freelancer, any decent space games mp gameplay and use it for a mp mode for a x game as that is all really what people would have liked to do in a x game. Have the complex part for yourself and then have a fight with randoms or mates in some mp maps with a static map i.e no tracking objects, static stations which you can repair on maybe and upgrade and you earn money through kills or loot.

^ so basically you want a "strip downed" version of the game for the MP? Then I have to ask, what's the point? If you're only interested in the "shoot them up" with no string attached then play those games you listed. Basically you're saying "I want an X MP game, but it doesn't have to be like the real X or have features that what make X - X", which make no sense to me. It's like dragging yourself to a highclass restaurant because you want to enjoy a full course dinner, but since it's so expensive that once you sit down you only order a salad and a soda ... shouldn't you just go to a Hambuger stand in the beginning?

I don't clamor for a MP mode, but if one ever release I will expect the MP mode to deliever a comparable experience to the SP mode, and I think that would be what the developers want to.

[Kor'ah]

If I want multi-player in space I'll resub to eve-online. Rather EgoSoft spend the money on the single player.