A Call to other Creative Contributors

SOTS · Post by **SOTS** » Tue, 13. May 08, 18:25

Again, The Zig contributes his awesomeness

*bows down to The Zig*

Ed Man · Post by **Ed Man** » Wed, 14. May 08, 00:33

Invite righters to do a short story about a day in the life of ? Like my hero Josh in my story line. Keep it short a page or two. Other writers could look over give ideals and so on.

The Zig · Post by **The Zig** » Fri, 16. May 08, 03:09

I think we should start preparing to do this now. We've got a few people to get started with. One person I'd like to see on board is KiwiNZ, but I think real life has stolen him from us.

Maybe more people will catch on once we get things moving.

Anyway, I'm gonna post a few ideas in the next day or two here. I've been a bit slack the last day or so because in RL I'm on the job trail. Along with the son and family my free-time is so gone right now! Working every hour. I'm keen on this idea tho, so I'll give what I can to it. Expect something soon.

KRM398 · Post by **KRM398** » Thu, 22. May 08, 02:27

Ok, discussion is good, we can each decided what we like to say or not, so individual controls would work, I'm interested to see how it works out, I'll keep an eye on the thread every so often, ty.

The Zig · Post by **The Zig** » Tue, 27. May 08, 03:30

Sorry. I ran out of time to do anything on this. Partly the fault of a hectic life-style, and partly the fault of reinstalling GTA-San Andreas!

Essentially, I was thinking of writing a part to an opening post for the new thread, outlining what it was about. I was thinking it would be (a) for submitting works (pics/ music/ video/ excerpts) for guaranteed feedback and discussion, and (b) for discussing and sharing ideas/concepts/influences, (c) for sharing hints and practical advice.

I also thought we could prepare some opening hints - things like formatting (e.g. chapter-threads or a story-thread), useful X-Universe resources (perhaps incorporating and updating the now-obsolete Fiction Foundry thread), writing resources (such as writing hint pages, useful programs for writing), legal clarification (While fan-fic can be a copyright violation, Egosoft encourage this, and ain't gonna sue you for writing about it here. At least, not while they're HOSTING it! However, open your own website dedicated to portraying X-universe characters in compromising situations with Sugar Babes and Argnu and you may have a problem!)

I have no expertise on audio/video/graphics, but perhaps someone could do something on this?

I think we want a thread that welcomes newcomers, gives everyone a forum for creative discussion, and encourages people to contribute. If we can all get this corner of the forum buzzing, maybe Egosoft'll take some notice and start doing something about their game plots.

I'll try to get back on this soon, but obviously don't wait on me if you have your ideas!

SOTS · Post by **SOTS** » Tue, 27. May 08, 13:06

What The Zig said.

However, it brings back the issue of posting plots/parts of posts online. While most readers would be honest enough to contribute helpfully, there will inevitably be at some point a cry of 'Hey! He stole my idea!'

The rest of it I have no issue with and support.

Paranoid66 · Post by **Paranoid66** » Wed, 28. May 08, 09:58

SOTS wrote:What The Zig said.

While most readers would be honest enough to contribute helpfully, there will inevitably be at some point a cry of 'Hey! He stole my idea!'

The rest of it I have no issue with and support.

As I said before an advisory that people shouldn't post anything they feel - too precious about - we also need to be mature about it, or avoid it altogether!

Anything posted on any forum is by its nature public domain, and we are all influenced by any media we take in plus every other experience we have. Fan Fiction in itself is a form of non nefarious semi consensual borrowing - as our stories inhabit a universe created by others! Hopefully we each build on rather than just reiterate this body of work. For example: to some degree the stories posted kind of add to the mythos of our overall perception of the X universe helping fill in the blanks about how that universe works. I think it is natural for people to build on the body of what has gone before - to some extent - rather than constantly reinvent the wheel! I've noticed some folk like to reference 'Farmhams Legend'.

I originally saw the idea (of the show, and tell aspect) as a bit like an art school critique where participants display their work. To some extent everyone will take some influence, and inspiration from what they like or even dislike, and from each others comments, and opinions this being the whole point.

A few may be guilty of copying a bit too directly on occasion by accident or design - thus the advisory - but that would happen anyway once the work is out in the real world. If you have confidence in the integrity of your own personal overall vision it isn’t a big issue - you can take the attitude - that this flatters your work rather than detracts from it.

One of my tutors used to like to say 'nothing is made out of nothing'. I am not advocating ripping stuff off, but we are often not as original as we might like to imagine either of course as ever it is about degree, and balance!

Maybe we could discuss this further.

Lord Dakier · Post by **Lord Dakier** » Wed, 28. May 08, 12:26

It's amazing how we all enjoy our own stories and see differently to everyone elses lol. I agree we need some more feedback.

SOTS · Post by **SOTS** » Mon, 2. Jun 08, 13:18

Are we starting the discussions here or in another thread?

If we're starting it soon, should we start thinking of topics to suggest for discussion? Or continue the debate here as to what we're fine or not fine with posting?

I'm looking forward to getting this off the ground.

Paranoid66 · Post by **Paranoid66** » Mon, 2. Jun 08, 13:36

SOTS wrote:Are we starting the discussions here or in another thread?

If we're starting it soon, should we start thinking of topics to suggest for discussion? Or continue the debate here as to what we're fine or not fine with posting?

I'm looking forward to getting this off the ground.

Why not quickly discuss some topics here, then get on with getting something going even just to thrash it out a bit. Otherwise the whole thing is in danger of stagnating.

If you have any topic ideas please share. I confess to feeling a bit stale at the moment. Plus I don't want to been seen to be running the show in any way as collaboration is much better.

Since it was my initial idea I'd prefer to begin with a contributed topic from somebody else.

Feels hot today and my brain hurts!

SOTS · Post by **SOTS** » Mon, 2. Jun 08, 16:05

I don't know about hot, but it's certainly far too humid where I am right now.

Anyways...

If you want quick, my earlier idea of discussing the merits of Alternate Universes in writing fan fiction is the only one I've had the time to think about.

As far as the merits go, I think it's easier to get a story off the ground quicker, because you can just use or adapt the opening of your subject matter, and go from there. New writers can use this type of story as a sort of practice run, before attempting a wholly new story for their subject.

However, it is somewhat unoriginal and isn't likely to hook or keep many readers - they already know how the start goes. It might even end up boring, if you have a carbon-copy start and a poorly-written subject. Of course, it is also necessary to be careful with such a start that once the 'true AU' part of one's story has kicked in, that you don't constantly reference the in-universe, or IU, story.

As with any prose style, there are advantages and drawbacks to using it. What say you?

(And yes, I know I'm guilty of AU'ing with Siege

)

Paranoid66 · Post by **Paranoid66** » Mon, 2. Jun 08, 18:41

Interesting use of the term Alternative Universe. To me all Fan Fiction is Alternative Universes as they can't really be fully canon unless you have full access to the originators mindset.

Oddly I find dealing with well known established characters, and known events in an AU off putting. Not just the here we go again replay either, but because I, and I worry everyone else have developed set perceptions of these folks, and events - perceptions that can war with a suspension of disbelief in the retelling!

I find this aspect of writing Fan Fiction difficult. I think I only used one established character BD and even then almost entirely at a distance. I also tried to steer clear of known history.

In truth I even had a hard time convincing myself to use any races other than Argon because I felt sure I would bend them out of shape - which no doubt I did - or be forced to write shallow sterotypes which I probably did as well hissing Teladi...

While it may be quicker to use others established source material I think it is easier to write something that is fully your own invention, and remain true.

Having said that the interesting thing about alternate universes is what is not alternate but all that is shared. For example you can avoid a lot of description by just mentioning something that is known and let the reader fill in the blanks (I need to do that more) for example you can say TM3 or Presidents End, and people will know what you are talking about a ship, and a sector in space.

So if you can't be bothered, or dislike long description, or want to concentrate on moving just the plot along this is handy. For this reason those wanting to get down, and have a go writing AU Fan Fiction is probably ideal for beginners to creative fiction.

SOTS · Post by **SOTS** » Mon, 2. Jun 08, 19:00

I see your point, but generally I see AU as the rough or exact opposite as the IU story. Take X2, as I did with Siege (trying not to advertise here, but it's a story I feel most qualified to talk about

). IU, the Kha'ak are driven back and everyone lives happily ever after. More or less. In my AU, the Kha'ak are kicking ass and aren't likely to stop.

I'm hoping for a decent ending, but that's still in the works. I digress.

I would define AU as something that is actually a modification of the original storyline, rather than a story that is set in the universe, but separate from IU events. (A la vanilla X3 sandbox game - not AU).

AU only goes so far - you can't really have the universe of one thing and populate it with things from another or of your own creation. That's not AU. That's basically some kind of hybrid AU-plus-some-other-random-stuff. AU stories still have all the features of the IU story and setting, but portrayed in a different way. In a story set in the X-Uinverse, describing in great detail the M classing system for pilotable vessels is not necessary - it is assumed that the reader is already familiar with the setting, or they would not be reading the fic.

No AU story can succeed without using the IU skeleton to base the story on. Similarly, no AU story can be canon, or probably even fanon. Alternate is the key word. Sure, it can be a great story, a century-spanning epic, even, but because it is alternate and because it actively goes against IU events, it can never be elevated to canon status.

Another few cents from me, anyway.

Paranoid66 · Post by **Paranoid66** » Mon, 2. Jun 08, 19:20

I see what you mean a bit like stories were say the axis win WWII instead of the allies.

I find it interesting that you discount the addition of material from AU. I approached the thing as the sharing of the base material aspects of the X universe from which I extrapolated on a new piece of fiction not bounded by such limits - a very different approach in some ways - to yours but I feel both are still valid as Fan Fiction.

What I did try to do was keep the added material - hidden away - so that on the surface the universe would more or less look the same. That was how I could rationalise it, after all anything could be going on out of sight.

SOTS · Post by **SOTS** » Mon, 2. Jun 08, 19:35

Addition is fine, I wasn't trying to say it didn't count as fan fiction (:P), but I wouldn't say it counted as AU. AU for me is more about the actual plot rather than the things in the universe that's been created.

Using your WWII comparison, AU would be the Axis winning, or the US not bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki and drawing the war out, or the Russians carrying on through Europe after taking Germany and annexing the continent.

Not AU, but not IU either (as far as 'IU' can be applied to a historical event), would be the 'major' events happening as recorded, but other things happening as well. So, a daring mission by one of the world powers behind enemy lines, or even one in their own lines to neutralise a threat, but that might not have been recorded or was classified and never released to the public.

That's the way I see it, anyways. I'm not going to try and force it down your throat any more

Paranoid66 · Post by **Paranoid66** » Mon, 2. Jun 08, 20:08

Since discussion is confusing without standised labels how about?

AU Alternate Universe
IU In Universe
SU Shared Universe
EU Expanded Universe

AU stays strictly true to material content, alters recorded historic events.
IU true to material, and historic content (official plot).
SU shares universe, but can have additional events.
EU shares universe, but can have extra physical content, and additional events.

SOTS · Post by **SOTS** » Mon, 2. Jun 08, 20:28

An excellent idea. Sounds reasonable, I'll roll with it. There's probably a whole host of other ones you could derive from those, such as different combinations, but my brain isn't up for giving them acronyms tonight

The Zig · Post by **The Zig** » Tue, 3. Jun 08, 05:16

Good discussion here.
Just some questions. What's the difference between Shared Universe (SU) and In Universe (IU)?

It seems to me that anything original that happens in any fanfic (dialogue, action, etc) is an "additional event" - it's not part of the canonical story. So by that definition, every original fanfic will always be SU, rather than IU. It seems impossible to write an IU fanfic. So with this definition, the term "IU" is essentially useless for discussing fanfic.

I think a more useful terminology is-

IU - any story based on the canon universe, which does not clearly contradict canonical events, e.g. he Young Ban Danna Chronicles, life and love on Argon Prime, a marine story of the ground battle on Olmanckenstrat's, etc. Stories such as Mystery of the Scorpion, Red Glow, Station 89. These stories all occur within the basic X-Universe framework, all add content, yet all keep clear enough of plot characters and events, and close enough to canon backdrop, as to be *possible* within the canon universe.

AU - any story based on the canon universe, but clearly non-canon e.g. alternate history - what if the Split won the Boron Campaign?! If Julian had gotten away and stayed Pirate? This would include stories such as Siege where the Kha'ak have clearly proven more of a threat than in the canon universe. Basically, stories that explore the canon universe in a "what if this had happened?" kind of way.

NaFF - If a story isn't based within the basic X-U framework, it's Not a FanFic! Or at least not an XU fanfic.

Clearly there's a big grey area, where people disagree about what's possible in a canon Universe - what's IU and AU. There's also the problem where latter canon additions make earlier fanfics non-canon (for example, if Julian dies in X3:TC, many existing fanfics about his post-game adventures will become non-canon. The nature of the Kha'ak and the lack of a DHEPT in X2 made Dark Haven non-canon). That said, I'd say all X-U fanfics fall in or between these categories. I'd say it's broader, and more in-line with writer intent; I certainly intended my stories to be in-universe and went to some pains - particularly with First House - to avoid breaking canon; to base my story upon accurate canon history and build my narrative into the gaps.

"EU" I'm not sure about. Don't all stories add something? "extra physical content" unknown sectors? New characters/races? Companies and organisations? "and additional events" dialogue? battles?
Don't all stories fit this criteria?

Paranoid66 · Post by **Paranoid66** » Tue, 3. Jun 08, 09:48

Everything is a grey area to me. I judge labels like this only ever go so far.

After thinking about SOTS position I saw IU as more or less a written description of the actual game plot obviously from a certain perspective as such it is as close to canon as you can get, while not being official ES.

I have to disagree with your young Ban Danna idea Zig - although I can see where you are coming from. To me anything new that could be superseded by later Canonical material can't be UI under SOTS definition. For example ES could have their own history back story already written but not published as a map aid that would contradict any Fan Fiction addition. All Fan Fiction being - unofficial - unless ES decided to sanctify it which seems unlikely so any - new - added history can't be IU?

AU seems reasonably clear at least.

SU is probably the widest category, as it imo best describes the nature of basic Fan Fiction, and is a wide umbrella term.

EU deals with flagrant additions or changes arguably like my (confession) hidden away Corealien or stuff that for example deals openly with the Ancients - anything that seriously strays off what is the canonical source material. I agree nearly all Fan Fiction adds some new material (otherwise the stories would be impoverished), but it is a question of degree.

I would also be inclined to argue any story that deals with adds a lot to any of the races - as this is largely utter speculation, and invention given the lack of official source material on this - especially in game. Therefore you have potential digression.

Working with what I know I see Reapers Passage as somewhere between SU, and EU at the moment. Why because I played a bit too much with non-canonical unknown game wise Paranid Origins, and because of the Corealien Hive access Core idea. However I still tried very hard to keep the physical X universe looking very much the same so that in my mind my story could still lie within the game - hidden - behind the surface that is why I would argue it can rest somewhere between.

I see out, and out EU to include noticeable serious maybe the word is discordant physical changes to the Game Universe, and how it works. To me the true base of X Fan Fiction still has to be - the game - adherence to other works even fiction embraced by ES should not be required.

Somebody who has only played the game ought to be able to write a piece of fiction based solely on that material alone, and it be considered SU though it might contradict for example 'Helges' story - often it appears - seen by many as canon material?

What do you think agree / disagree?

KRM398 · Post by **KRM398** » Tue, 3. Jun 08, 11:53

Some god ideas all around here, my ideas of an AU is this...the "Many Worlds Theory" in other words, and AU has the posibility of being a new universe with the same characters. For instance, Julian is our hero, in another universe, Julian never leaves the pirates, in another, He was never born, still another, he's in charge of Argon Intelligence and Ban is the hero. See what I mean? The universe is so open its able to use some people from the main story in any combination, thats not boring, it can be very exciting.

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A Call to other Creative Contributors

Just a thought