X3 online NOT DAME UPDATES

[NewtSoup]

still not reson, y cart do a lan or a small ip in like 10 players, load games use have loads going on back ground fight age empire one c&C they at lest give lan game

You really don't have a clue what goes into these games do you or why you "can't do a lan or a small ip" (whatever that means exactly).

The reasons are mentioned above.

Let me add - responsibility? who's computer runs the AI even on a 10 player lan game?. Who stores the information for complexes? Someone has to run as a server. That means re-writing the entire game to a client server architecture which is vastly different to a single player game. I don't mean the scripts running the AI. I mean the entire game from the rendering engine up.

*edit*. removed as per mods request.

[Ebyl Vampyre]

That's why it would need to be included in the next full release of an X universe game. There is no point in trying to modify X3 to do it when there is almost certainly another X game in our future.

However, I don't buy the story about needing to change the entire feel of the game just to allow a limited LAN version. With good planning you could make some modifications to gameplay and keep nearly all of the feel.

[Tulgar]

I bought this game as I wanted to be playing single player. Maybe I am getting old, but whats with the huge push towards MMOG's?

I love this game as I can cruise around and enjoy my time without any other people directly involved (forums have been helpful)!

I am definately getting picky with my $$ when it comes to game. I want value for my coinage. X3 has easily been worth the money to date, and I am sure I have hundreds of hours to go!!

[esd]

That's why it would need to be included in the next full release of an X universe game. There is no point in trying to modify X3 to do it when there is almost certainly another X game in our future.

However, I don't buy the story about needing to change the entire feel of the game just to allow a limited LAN version. With good planning you could make some modifications to gameplay and keep nearly all of the feel.

It'd be a drastically different version of the game even if it was only 2player co-op. Many of the game mechanics simply aren't suited to multiplayer. Let's start with SETA.

SETA obviously cannot function in a multiplayer game. So, you'd need to adjust all ship speeds to counter this for in-sector travel.

Now you need to balance the AI to deal with the new speeds.

You need to adjust all weapon speeds, possibly damage outputs, generator speeds, etc to suit.

You'll need to redesign many of the sectors to deal with travelling at those speeds.

That's just off the top of my head. Each of those changes would have further knock-on effects that'd require rebalancing too.

And that's only SETA. There's so much more.

Also, the development costs for a LAN version would not be that much less than a larger-scale multiplayer concept. All the same design decisions and processes would be needed. Everything would need rebalancing. Some things would be obselete, and need replacing. This all costs money...

...and what extra income would Egosoft receive for making a LAN version? None. They can't charge subscription on a LAN.

Besides, I'm not keen on X becoming multiplayer. As it is now, too much would change to make it the same game.

X for me is a solo pursuit. It's my time. I don't want to share.

[Ebyl Vampyre]

I've already addressed the SETA issue. Jump drives for players could be modified so you could use them in a limited way for in-sector travel.

That would require little rebalancing since players only get SETA.

[esd]

I've already addressed the SETA issue. Jump drives for players could be modified so you could use them in a limited way for in-sector travel.

That would require little rebalancing since players only get SETA.

It'd require a fair bit of rebalancing, because you're talking about vanishing and reappearing in the same sector. This has tactical elements, and would all need addressing too.

Off the top of my head... you'd need to balance the new drive, you'd probably still need to increase ship speeds (to allow NPCs to compete), which'd then require the whole list of rebalances above. You'd need to redesign sectors to allow (or limit) jumping. It'd all need testing, balancing, retesting, some more balancing... all costing a lot of money.

There's no network code in X. Not a scrap. That'd need to be custom-written from scratch. Very expensive.

I actually did a guestimated cost analysis of X/Simple-Multiplayer a while back in Devchat, and we were talking nearly a million pounds a year in completely-basic development costs, not including writing the network code. I underestimated a lot of things, too. Particularly wages.

And the cost is something no-one's really addressed.

[Ebyl Vampyre]

I'll address it now, then.

I know several people who will not touch a game if it doesn't have multiplayer capabilities. Personally, I think it's stupid, but that's how they are. When I tell them about X3 they ask if it has multiplayer and I tell them it doesn't and they don't want to hear anymore.

While I understand there extensive additional costs, I also know that it's possible to tap into previously untouchable gaming groups when a game adds a multiplayer dimension. Would it outweigh the costs? Probably not, but then again I'm not a marketing expert in the gaming industry. But to dismiss it out of hand is short sighted, imo. There are always options.

As for the in-sector jump drive, I don't see much rebalancing being needed. First of all I will say I'm not advocating turning X3 into a LAN version. At some point all series need to be torn and down and rebuilt more or less from scratch. That would be the ideal time to add a LAN dimension into an upcoming X game.

Now, back to the jump drive. The entire universe runs in the background. There would be little extra number crunching required to do a calculation while the drive was charging that made sure you were not jumping into a collision. The jump drive would not allow you to jump right to a station. It would put you a certain distance from whatever station you wanted, whatever seemed "balanced". Perhaps you could also jump to the middle of the sector or something, like UT's can do now. If you want to explore distant, hidden gates, take a fast ship and expect to spend a little time on it.

[Johnnyonoes]

Definitly not looking forward to seeing an X-online. I would rather they perfect a great forumla that they have already.

-JO

[CBJ]

While I understand there extensive additional costs, I also know that it's possible to tap into previously untouchable gaming groups when a game adds a multiplayer dimension. Would it outweigh the costs? Probably not, but then again I'm not a marketing expert in the gaming industry. But to dismiss it out of hand is short sighted, imo. There are always options.

This has been explained numerous times already. Development costs money up front but money doesn't start rolling in until after your game is complete and on the shelves. Unless you have huge wads of cash floating around or can find someone who has to lend it to you (remember, PC development is expensive, high-risk, and doesn't yield returns for at least a year - not a good combination when you are looking for financial backing) then it doesn't matter what markets there are to tap into, you cannot develop your game. It has nothing to do with being short-sighted, and everything to do with financial realities.

[Dragoongfa]

Not again...

PS:Seriously this must be the 10th (IIRC) thread about this.

EDIT:Since i first started counting...

[Psirus]

In order to turn (true)X into multiplayer ego woudl have to adopt alot from EVE, and to support that we woudl lose alot of functionality, and after it was all done it would be EVE, which is pretty much a giant chat room where people shoot at you from time to time. The only way I can see X online working is that players can only build stations in rare instances (say building a refinery to turn low grade silicon into high grade in a distant sector to make hauling your minerals back easier), but these woudl have to have an inherant maintainance cost as well as an operation cost. For most production a player woudl rent space at one of the universe complexes. There they could use the station's equipment with their own resources. About UT's.... can no longer exist, as well as massive fleets controlled by remote. Easy fix though. NPC ships that dock at a station would stay for a peroid of say 30 minutes, during which time a player can hire them to pilot one of their ships for a peroid of time. Also the NPC's ship would be availaqble to rent.

In other words, the game looses the "X" feel because you can no longer control the universe single-handedly

[Stephen Croft]

If you want a space on-line game, do a google on eve game.

[Ebyl Vampyre]

The short sighted comment was not directed at esd or Egosoft. Financial realities are financial realities.

[esd]

Would it outweigh the costs? Probably not, but then again I'm not a marketing expert in the gaming industry.

Most likely not, given the vast costs. Remember, space is a niché genre too - it simply doesn't have the draw that RPGs get right now.

As for the in-sector jump drive, I don't see much rebalancing being needed. First of all I will say I'm not advocating turning X3 into a LAN version. At some point all series need to be torn and down and rebuilt more or less from scratch. That would be the ideal time to add a LAN dimension into an upcoming X game.

Now, back to the jump drive. The entire universe runs in the background. There would be little extra number crunching required to do a calculation while the drive was charging that made sure you were not jumping into a collision. The jump drive would not allow you to jump right to a station. It would put you a certain distance from whatever station you wanted, whatever seemed "balanced". Perhaps you could also jump to the middle of the sector or something, like UT's can do now. If you want to explore distant, hidden gates, take a fast ship and expect to spend a little time on it.

There's always rebalancing needed, even on the tiniest slightest changes you need to test, balance and test again. Beta testing (Not X. Different game, different genre, different devs) is my thing, by the way

You've not touched on rebalancing the AI to enable them to compete. Nor sector redesign.

And a final note on finances:
You say they could tap into this extra market, fine... maybe the income would return a profit, but way before you can even think about that, you have one critical problem. Obtaining funds from the publisher. See, with space being a very niché genre, it's extremely difficult to get the publisher to help pay for development costs.
I'm pretty sure X² was funded by Egosoft's staff themselves, from their own money, and was probably part of the reason it was in development for so long (I base this from what I read here during the development of X²).
So, where are they going to get this additional £1m/pa (excluding network code creation costs, and that's almost certainly massively underestimated costing) to pay for it all?

[Ebyl Vampyre]

If you're building the game from the ground up, the rebalancing issue pretty much becomes moot, doesn't it? You have to do massive amounts of testing and balancing anyway since you're typically working on a new engine with lots of new features. So things like sector design are being done as part of development. That's the advantage of incorporating multiplayer while designing a game, not as an afterthought.

As for the AI competing, you're talking about trading, right? How many people make their millions upon millions trading with their own ship? I'm not sure how the AI couldn't compete if you're talking about trading, since my feeling is most players don't spend much time doing their own trading anyway.

[esd]

If you're building the game from the ground up, the rebalancing issue pretty much becomes moot, doesn't it? You have to do massive amounts of testing and balancing anyway since you're typically working on a new engine with lots of new features. So things like sector design are being done as part of development. That's the advantage of incorporating multiplayer while designing a game, not as an afterthought.

No, it doesn't become moot, because it's an X game, not a totally new game. You need to keep sufficient familiar concepts, and ensure they're balanced.

As for the AI competing, you're talking about trading, right? How many people make their millions upon millions trading with their own ship? I'm not sure how the AI couldn't compete if you're talking about trading, since my feeling is most players don't spend much time doing their own trading anyway.

I'm talking about trading, fighting, everything really.

but, you've not addressed the financial aspect of my post yet, and whatever we decide about balance is a total waste of time until that one's sorted

[Ebyl Vampyre]

Sorry, I've never considered discussions a waste of time unless they degenerate into name calling. The financial problems have been explained well and I'm sure there isn't a good solution to that. If you can't get the finances, you can't get the finances (which is what I meant by short sighted on the part of big investors with the capital to back it, since I think a lot could be done to broaden an X game into a larger market...Egosoft has proved they are capable of doing it right, imo). But I still don't consider the discussion a waste of time.

[Ebyl Vampyre]

I wouldn't mind an example of how allowing limited jump drive use within sector could seriously unbalance anything but trading, though.

With fighting it seems to me you can already jump out of combat, so that would remain the same. At best you could maybe jump in closer to a target than before, but I'm not sure how that offers you any great advantage of the AI. There's really no competition there to begin with, so I'm not sure what you'd be changing.

[esd]

I said the decision was one. Discussion rarely is.

Unfortunately it is the biggest deciding factor, and while you mention wider markets you're missing the point that this is a niché genre. Heck, it's a niché game within a niché genre.

Space doesn't generally sell well. Really complicated space games rarely do (Battlecruiser, anyone? Though that did have quite a few other problems too). X is lucky to have it's success, because despite being a fantastic game, it's at an automatic disadvantage when it comes to securing funding and publishing.

I wouldn't mind an example of how allowing limited jump drive use within sector could seriously unbalance anything but trading, though.

With fighting it seems to me you can already jump out of combat, so that would remain the same. At best you could maybe jump in closer to a target than before, but I'm not sure how that offers you any great advantage of the AI. There's really no competition there to begin with, so I'm not sure what you'd be changing.

You may not get competition from the AI, but a lot of people do.

Let's take just one example: You're in a fight, you're shields are about to collapse, their's are pretty low. You engage the jumpdrive and select a position only 1km behind the enemy. You pop out of existance and appear right behind them, ready to fire. That's a total inbalance, and would require fixing. That affects humans too.

The AI generally wouldn't get access to the drive, most likely, in order to maintain balance for the less combat-orientated players.

Another example is getting reinforcements through the gate, but the gate's 200km away! No matter... engage their in-system jumpdrive and they'll be right with you. The AI most likely wouldn't get such a luxury, particularly in multiplayer where everyone else's actions are also being tracked.

Besides, trading would be affected. A fair few players do make millions out of manual trade - that's the beauty of X.. it's not just for flight jocks, and it's not just for pencil pushers. It's for both, and all inbetween.

[Ebyl Vampyre]

Yeah, space has limited appeal, but I think it's possible to overcome that to some degree. While there are plenty of people who won't touch a space game even if they're paid to, I think there are just as many who would if they found a game with features that appealed to them. So the idea would be to design a game that appealed to a wider range of consumers than just the standard X game as it is right now.

You would include as many options as possible when starting a LAN X game. Think of the way GalCiv2 allows you to customize the galaxy before you start a game. As an example, there is an option to start out with all techs, which changes the whole feel of the game. In a similar manner a LAN X game could be started where each player is given a function empire and a fleet to start with. You could have starts that are more combat oriented, invasion oriented, or are pretty much like how the game is now. Adding the options broadens the appeal of the game to reach a wider consumer base, while still allowing people to play single player or a LAN game that is like single player, just with friends.

In the end, it's still a space game, but I think if the game is good enough and has enough options, people will play it. Fantasy used to be a limited appeal thing as well, and look at it now. Suddenly everyone wants to be a dark elf or a drunken scottish dwarf.

With regards to your examples, I see your point. A possible solution would be to limit the range you could jump towards a hostile target or player target. Something outside of weapon's range, similar to not allowing a person to jump right up next to a station. You could also limit reinforcements to gate jumps only, which would solve the other example you gave, right?

Edit - Well, with trading you would limit that by preventing players from jumping right up against a station. Make them be at least 10-15 km away from it when they jump in, or something like that. I agree that is definitely something you'd have to test a lot with. But when you can make ridiculous amounts of money by selling high end weapons from your complexes in unlimited numbers to EQ docks, I still can't imagine it would imbalance much of anything.