X4 Multiplayer?

[Dead_walker]

I think the best multiplayer format for x4 would copy Battlezone 2's example. .

Battlezone 2 is one of the best damb games ive ever played.

That would be a good idea

[fiksal]

hehe

Wow... Didn't know people still use 800x600...

yeah yeah yeah
1024x768 to be precise, and that's at work... a lot more at home.
BUT there's still no excuse for your actions

No because I'd rather have gameplay features... Real features that make the game interesting... if I wanted to interact with people I'd talk with my husband or go outside!!!

So you just want to play in your own sandbox, no matter how well Egosoft could implement the multiplayer feature.
But I think - it's good to play together.

Also you're not going to get it...

you just all around nice person arent you?

Firstly @ CBJ
I was actually thinking this thread was about whether or not the buyers of the game wanted Multi-player or not (which would give an indication as to whether or not it should be persued) - not the ability of 'EGO' soft to deliver.
I understand fully that it would require a complete re-coding of the game and would take a lot of time and development dollars.

That's the way I understood it too.
Interestingly enough, there are thinking about X-online. So doesnt seem like multiplayer is such a longshot.
Now if X-OU would feature singleplayer, multiplayer, and online - that'd be the best damn game ever.

@Ramiw00t
How does the freedom change? If you want to blow something up because you're bored - go blow it up...just the consequences might be a little more immediate and dramatic! If it was setup in a way that you can't play modded games in multi-mode then the playing field is the same for everyone!

Freedom should not change. However it's true that other people in the game will make the game more challenging... is it that bad though?
Just gotta put more thought into game mechanics, and rebalance it accordingly.

As far as multiplayer games go, there should be several modes features,
- where player(s) can connect to existing (saved) game on the server (of one of the players perhaps). Or continue previously saved game of a group of people.
- have the ability "add/remove" players and their properties. Other player ships and/or stations can be allowed to be imported or not. All would depend on server settings.
- and just allow to script fast battles

The reason I want to be able to import saved game states, is because I want some continuiuty to multiplayer, but not really make it an MMO.
Besides rules on a private server could be far more relaxed than on an MMO server, that has to make sure that everyone has a fair start and so on.

[R.Styles]

I think it would be a good idea, the X universe would expand to a huge size, factions can be made, collaborations between groups of people, waring factions controlling their sectors.

I was actually thinking this thread was about whether or not the buyers of the game wanted Multi-player or not.

I would buy it.
Simply, rather than say it impossible or it would ruin the future of the X universe. brianwillis & TriMagestis asked a question, weather we would buy it & play it or not, but most of the posts made are on the production/cost/implementaion of multiplayer, which isn't yes or no weather you'd buy it.

[mystikmind2005]

what does it matter to anyone if there is a Multi-Player component? You don't have to play it...

Because development time spent on making the game multi-player (and we are talking about a lot of development time here) is time that cannot be spent on other features that other people want.

And it doesn't have to be a MMOG - but enought to allow like mindeds to connect together, 4-8 would be enough IMO.

It has been explained quite a few times that not only does having "limited" multi-player not make it significantly easier to develop, but it is unlikely to be financially viable since this type of multi-player would not generate enough additional income to cover the cost of its development.

Yes we wouldn't want to interupt those busy developers from making useful features such as the lottery in X2 to go and waste time making a useless multiplayer feature. (apologies for the sarcasm hehehe)

This kind of reasoning has seen multyplayer modes killed off in more and more games.

Ok yes you have to hedge your bets as a developer, to determine what will make a good game for x amount of money. But i would bet that if there was tougher competition in the market then it may just be the multiplayer mode that gives Egosoft the edge.

[Cardboard Tube]

I think a lot of people lack a basic understanding of the games market, and the nature of games development.

[mystikmind2005]

I think the best multiplayer format for x4 would copy Battlezone 2's example. .

Battlezone 2 is one of the best damb games ive ever played.

That would be a good idea

Definately the multiplayer features is what made it so good. So good that gamers got together and built a whole new series! Just as if gamers got together and built x3 after x2 got old.

Although i never got past the first mission in the new series of battlezone! I thought if i cannot figure out the first mission myself without asking then thats it - and indeed it was.

[CBJ]

Because development time spent on making the game multi-player (and we are talking about a lot of development time here) is time that cannot be spent on other features that other people want.

It might amuse you to know that, like many of the features that people complain about such as the station announcements, the lottery was actually a player-suggested feature. Your sarcasm, while amusing, is misplaced however. The lottery is the kind of thing that a programmer probably added one evening in their spare time, and does not even register on the scale of development required to implement multi-player.

This kind of reasoning has seen multyplayer modes killed off in more and more games.

Actually the reasoning that kills off multi-player modes in games is often purely financial. I've been through this in detail in previous posts so I won't repeat it, but the reality is that it is often very difficult to recoup the cost of developing a multi-player mode.

[TriMagestis]

Hey CBJ - just wondering if collaberation with another developer is a possible consideration? Or are you guys very covetous of your engine code? I mean perhaps a hybrid of a couple of games to develop a new one - you throw in your multi-player - we'll throw in our gameplay engine - which I might add is one of the best I have seen? How about approaching some of the Sci-fi TV producers to offer a game of their show to help generate some extra income - there are many avenues. The point I am trying to make is...at some point - the X universe will start to lose its appeal - having a 14 yr old who is a WOW fan - I have a reasonable understanding of where his gaming is at - he won't even look at playing X because of no multi-playerability - he and his friends set up LANs all the time to play, and I am affraid you are missing out on a whole chunk of the market because of it. I understand the economics of business and how costly and time consuming development is - but surely something can be arranged, because in the end if EGOSOFT cannot maintain marketshare - it will decline like many other past game producers. Just my thoughts and opinions.

[mrbadger]

Actually the reasoning that kills off multi-player modes in games is often purely financial. I've been through this in detail in previous posts so I won't repeat it, but the reality is that it is often very difficult to recoup the cost of developing a multi-player mode.

I find that a frequent problem, as a software developer myself, is that people find it very easy to identify features they want, but not so easy to understand the complexity of the code required to instantiate that feature.

I got asked to add a 'trivial' feature into a codebase not long ago, (trivial in the eyes of the requestor), and spent weeks and weeks re-coding the base to allow for this feature, before I was even able to start on the feature itself.

Then there was testing, which still isn't complete. And this is a codebase of <10,000 LOC.

The problem is, not matter how 'trivial' the feature, you can be certain, if it was not in the original design, that it will break something else, or make something else less efficient, or throw up new bugs. These are constants of software design.

And if you miss even one issue, the requestor of the feature will frown, and wonder why you didn't spot or fix the problem to start with.

/sigh.

[Serial Kicked]

@mrbadger: That's so right. I also know that too well.

[silentWitness]

@silentWitness

Really but you see I would have just cause. Multiplay code would destroy the X series and these no guarantee we'd even get the features we have now... Egosoft are smart enough to know that multiplayer isn't what their core market want.

It's what you and a couple of others... They go into Eve territory right now and they'll be slaughtered, that market is hugely competitive... They fill a niche one that others don't quite fill... meaning they have a captured market... one that's growing as long that they continue to raise their game each time... Their only real competitor is Elite 4 and that's a long way off. As for getting other developers in, unlikely as Egosoft would have to share profits... the larger the Developer the smaller Egosoft's profit... I wouldn't want to see that contract...

Egosoft is a small fish in the right place at the right time... lets not spoil that by entering hugely competitive markets and going bankrupt...

As that's what will happen right now... I'm not willing to wait five years for a multiplayer game which adds nothing of consequence... It's basically a toss up between features and multiplayer...

Also Multiplayer would be the end of the road for X games for me... I know a lot of others feel the same... The longer it takes XOL/U to get here the better...

[Aramaye]

The problem is, not matter how 'trivial' the feature, you can be certain, if it was not in the original design, that it will break something else, or make something else less efficient, or throw up new bugs. These are constants of software design.

Yup, get that one all the time. My particular bugbear at the moment is those in the office who go around 'optimising' the code and not updating the design documentation. So along I come to implement feature A, which ends up breaking these optimisations, when according to the design docs, it should all fit together nicely.

P*sses me right off, that does.



Point being, no to multiplayer

[TriMagestis]

silentWitness - I don't agree that you would have just cause - and I don't see how Multi-playerability will destroy the X series... there are many games out there that have multi-player function and singleplayer function and the only difference between them is - the plot and the abilty to co-operate (or not) with others.

Yes EGOSOFT is a small fish - and I wasn't for a moment suggesting they should take on the developers of eve with a MMOG. I also wasn't suggesting they should sell their souls to the devil for collaboration - but there are other small fish that would have something to offer and both come out with a win-win. Just remember in the wide world - small fish also get eaten. You are right about them having to grow their market - and there is a bigger market in Multi-player (and I am not talking about MMOG) which would certainly be a very different game - it would have to be.

If XOU is never coming then why do they persist on leaving the .net site up - even though it hasn't been updated in a while - if EGOSOFT have no intention of developing the game - they should take the site down and be done with it.

@mrbadger
I know how long it takes to code even the smallest thing - I work with developers all the time (business apps) and have a very real idea of how everything works in a complicated environment where a small change can break many other things. I do believe this thread was about do we want it or not - not what it takes to do it (time or financial)

[silentWitness]

I know what you're asking for... Multiplayer isn't all that big... it's more prominent, everyone's heard of the Online gaming deaths... Mutliplayer and multiplayer moded games are actually a small part of the industry... and as much as it's seen as the 'next big thing' it's still very much the territory of shot'um ups and fantasy games...

It's a lot of work, tons... Lets say Four years for a new engine, another two for actual content and ++Years for new stuff... No garantees of new custom

Or

Four or Five years... Amazing single player game that has the features we really want...

Oh and where abouts in Melbourne... I grewup around Fitsroy...

[TriMagestis]

Grew up in Richmond and live in Boxhill.

I'm of the opinion that with-out the multi-player facility...at some point - the X series will wane. and as for a small part of the industry - I think you are mistaken - even though most games aren't built around the Multi-player function - most games ARE built with the function built in to appeal to the widest audience possible.

and I shouldn't have to point out that the X series is half way shootem up anyway You are right though - there is no guarantee of new custom - there is no guarantee that EGOSOFT will be able to maintain their customer base either. Nothing is certain.

It's already an amazing single player game - and there is no guarantee of substantial features they could come up with and implement any way.

As for years of development - maybe, but they must have something already in some sort of alpha form they could build on - the XOU.NET site says that they have. The thing that concerns me is keeping and generating interest. Take Warcraft for example it had three releases before interest began to wane - given, blizzard is a big company - but they had to re-invent the game to regenerate interest. Everything has it's life cycle - would you like to see EGOSOFT wither because they didn't implement something that just might have made a difference - I wouldn't. I said in one of my other posts - I have a 14 year old who won't look at the X games because he can't multi-play with his friends and as much as I don't like to say this - he and his friends are the future markets for products.

BTW - where do you hail from now?

[esd]

I'm of the opinion that with-out the multi-player facility...at some point - the X series will wane.

I think it's lack of multiplayer is actually a strength. No gameplay compromises for multiplayer compatability purposes, no griefers, and more.

This game's a single player game and so it gets to avoid all the pitfalls of multiplayer (there's lots). Making it multiplayer would remove that.

There's precious few single-player-only games left out there, don't take away one of the best.

[CBJ]

If XOU is never coming then why do they persist on leaving the .net site up - even though it hasn't been updated in a while - if EGOSOFT have no intention of developing the game - they should take the site down and be done with it.

Let's be clear about this. Nobody is stating that X-OU is never coming. In fact I think it is fair to say that the whole history of the X-Universe games has been driven in part by the ultimate goal of developing X-OU.

Before X-OU can see the light of day, three things have to be in place: finance, time and infrastructure. The infrastructure is pretty much there now: enough people have fast internet access and the hardware needed to run such a game is here already. Time and finance are more tricky, and are closely related. It's not enough for there to be money if the timescales to get a working game are too short, and it's not enough to have plenty of time if there's no-one paying for the development. The only way to get both is to find a financial backer with sufficient vision to support a long development process, and those are never easy to come by.

People often cite some kind of limited multi-player as some kind of half-way house to an MMO, but this really isn't the case. The specific bits of server-side code for an MMO are a relatively minor issue compared to the whole communications infrastructure for synchronising the universe across multiple PCs. LAN-based multi-player also has the disadvantage that it generates little or no extra revenue; a few extra sales to those people lucky enough to be able to host a server and play among their friends is not going to generate enough income to cover the cost of its development. It is therefore even less likely to happen than an MMO until a financial backer materialises.

Another thing that people often claim is that developers are being short-sighted by not investing in the work needed to create a multi-player mode. Well, the long view is of course always good to take, but developers have to eat and sometimes the short view is the only one available.

To address the issue of collaboration, never say never, but sharing work between companies is rarely as easy or productive as it sounds on paper. Apart from issues of codebase and technical differences, you also run into communication and culture differences, and sometimes end up with a product which aims to take the best of both and ends up being the lowest common denominator. Once again, I wouldn't rule this out, but I would say that it wasn't the magic solution that would suddenly make multi-player possible.

Edit: Typos.

[silentWitness]

BTW - where do you hail from now?

London but I'm coming home soon... although house prices have risen a lot since I left... it's a bit scary... plus things have changed a lot.

[mrbadger]

@mrbadger
I do believe this thread was about do we want it or not - not what it takes to do it (time or financial)

indeed, but the two problems are irrevocably linked. Even if they want it (and it would not be the same game if they did), it would be very hard.

The problem they would have to solve is whether the resulting game, which would be fundamentally different to sngle player X3, would generate sufficient sales to make the re-code worthwhile.

I have a doubt in this respect.

[pgallaway]

I'm a first time X3 player - never played any of the other 2 X games. I have to say that what sold me on this game was the fact that it was an open ended SINGLE PLAYER game. If it was a MMORPG I probably wouldnt have even looked at it.

The last thing you want to do is turn this thing into a FPS PvP Frag-Festival.

IMO