Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

[xant]

The problem with upkeep is that it always makes you dependent on generating profit, something you can't do on your own. Selling inventory items to traders on your station is the only way to make credits on your own without any faction. So having credit-based upkeep would make it necessary for us to somehow make credits on our own or to use something else for upkeep, something we can produce and distribute (like food and medical supplies). Otherwise it would cut down hard on our sandbox experience.

Very curious about this. Can't work out how you're playing the game (as it is right now) without interacting with NPC factions, if that cuts down on your sandbox experience. How do you even get started in such a game? OK - you've got your starter ship (that's free), but what do you do next if you can't get credits from the NPC factions? Truly baffled.


By the way, I agree with Killjaeden on this. Would very much like upkeep to be part of the game & would not see it as a chore. Don't mind if that costs credits (since that now seems to be a relevant factor), though would also be fine if it's other stuff. Played a fair bit of the new Crusader Kings last year & really it's the upkeep on your army which is one of the things which drives the game forward - need to conquer new territory to obtain the the resources (e.g. more tax from vassals) needed to build a bigger army to conquer new territory...

The game has several phases. Of course it would be hard to build everything up without interacting with anyone. But after you've obtained all blueprints and have one or more self-sustained supply chains? Then you don't need those NPC factions, you can be on your own if you wish. Credits lose all meaning here once you stop buying anything. I state this not as criticism, but as a fact.

Total independence is possible because of it. Once you produce and build everything for yourself, you don't need to earn credits ever again. It doesn't matter, though, since you don't have to spend anything either. And that last part would be lost if we were to have upkeep costs that are credit-based. You can generate everything for yourself, everything but credits. I'm not against the idea of upkeep, but against an absolute dependence on other factions that is driven by the need to earn credits to pay my upkeep.

So if Egosoft someday introduces some kind of upkeep, I really hope that it fits two criteria: a) allowing self-sufficience and b) not a hassle once we have dozens of stations and hundreds of ships (like manually landing every S-sized craft to give it the required 10 Energy Cells so that it can fly for another 120 Mins)

[mr.WHO]

Could we also have a balancing pass and expanding of deployables?

Like

More Laser towers (could be easily done by upscale and maybe some up-detail of Laser tower model):
mk.1 - S-size (current)
mk.2 - M-size (current)
mk.3 - L-size (new)
mk.4 - XL size (new)


More drone types:
Combat mk.1 - current drone
Combat mk.2 - double the firepower
Combat mk.3 - double firepower of mk.2 + light shield

Bomber drone mk.1 - M-size drone with plasma gun and turret
Bomber drone mk.2 - two plasma gun and two turrets
Bomber drone mk.3 - mk.2 + medium shields

The "bomber assignment" would come handy for those (attack capships, ignore everything else - basically opposite to current "interceptor assignment").

Given that 3.0 made proper drone control GUI this would be easy and fast way to add some depth to drones.

[GCU Grey Area]

The game has several phases. Of course it would be hard to build everything up without interacting with anyone. But after you've obtained all blueprints and have one or more self-sustained supply chains? Then you don't need those NPC factions, you can be on your own if you wish. Credits lose all meaning here once you stop buying anything. I state this not as criticism, but as a fact.

Total independence is possible because of it. Once you produce and build everything for yourself, you don't need to earn credits ever again. It doesn't matter, though, since you don't have to spend anything either. And that last part would be lost if we were to have upkeep costs that are credit-based. You can generate everything for yourself, everything but credits. I'm not against the idea of upkeep, but against an absolute dependence on other factions that is driven by the need to earn credits to pay my upkeep.

So if Egosoft someday introduces some kind of upkeep, I really hope that it fits two criteria: a) allowing self-sufficience and b) not a hassle once we have dozens of stations and hundreds of ships (like manually landing every S-sized craft to give it the required 10 Energy Cells so that it can fly for another 120 Mins)

Fair enough, not how I like to play, but as long as you're having fun guess it's fine.

For me, really don't like the part of the game where money becomes meaningless. Game loses most of it's fun at that point & I generally restart soon after. It's why I'd rather like an upkeep mechanic to soak up some of those excess credits, so it takes longer to get to the point where Trade is pointless. The idea of total independence doesn't really appeal either. Prefer to pick a faction (ZYA in my current game) & do what I can to make it prosper, trade & build stations for it, fight alongside it in it's wars, etc.

[Pesanur]

Could we also have a balancing pass and expanding of deployables?

Like

More Laser towers (could be easily done by upscale and maybe some up-detail of Laser tower model):
mk.1 - S-size (current)
mk.2 - M-size (current)
mk.3 - L-size (new)
mk.4 - XL size (new)

Because the mk.1 (XS size) are launched from the air lock and the mk.2 (S size) from S docks, is possible to make the mk.3 (M size) to be launched from M docks, but I not see place for Mk.4 turrets.

But first the maximum amount of carried turrets need to be fixed. Is ridiculous that a ship can carry the same maximum amount of mk.1 and mk.2 turrets when the mk.2 are bigger.

[mr.WHO]

Because the mk.1 (XS size) are launched from the air lock and the mk.2 (S size) from S docks, is possible to make the mk.3 (M size) to be launched from M docks, but I not see place for Mk.4 turrets.

But first the maximum amount of carried turrets need to be fixed. Is ridiculous that a ship can carry the same maximum amount of mk.1 and mk.2 turrets when the mk.2 are bigger.

Good catch, I often miss that XS class exist.

For the largest lasertower I see them like Mjolnir sentry beam from Freespace 2 - something big, powerful and expensive, but rather vulnerable to anything below L-size:
https://youtu.be/meEgqEukNLQ?t=180
in action:
https://youtu.be/meEgqEukNLQ?t=495


mk.1 - XS-size (current) - airlock launch
mk.2 - S-size (current) - S-dock launch
mk.3 - M-size (new) - M-dock launch
mk.4 - L size (new) - launched only from Auxilary ship

[Lord Crc]

mk.4 - L size (new) - launched only from Auxilary ship

Could also be made in-situ by construction drones, I suppose.

[aurelcourt]

The problem with upkeep ...

By the way, I agree with Killjaeden on this. Would very much like upkeep to be part of the game & would not see it as a chore.
....
Crusader Kings last year & really it's the upkeep on your army which is one of the things which drives the game forward - need to conquer new territory to obtain the the resources (e.g. more tax from vassals) needed to build a bigger army to conquer new territory...

Good observations yes,

Even in real life (or CK games), maintaining armies is what costs you the most. And that makes sense. The logistics is insane.

I'd actually love to see a kind of upkeep, especially for military ships, and with associated ways to make money even if you're independent :
- taxes on your people (in exchange for less productivity maybe ?)
- vassal system with associated taxes owned by/to you
- tolls on the gates of systems you own ?
- ...

Overall that would also avoid the player steamrolling the entire universe because there is no limitation in building more and more and more and more!

[dtpsprt]

The problem with upkeep is that it always makes you dependent on generating profit, something you can't do on your own. Selling inventory items to traders on your station is the only way to make credits on your own without any faction. So having credit-based upkeep would make it necessary for us to somehow make credits on our own or to use something else for upkeep, something we can produce and distribute (like food and medical supplies). Otherwise it would cut down hard on our sandbox experience.

Very curious about this. Can't work out how you're playing the game (as it is right now) without interacting with NPC factions, if that cuts down on your sandbox experience. How do you even get started in such a game? OK - you've got your starter ship (that's free), but what do you do next if you can't get credits from the NPC factions? Truly baffled.

..........

Almost the same way I do... You get your "piggybank" money from opening Data Vaults (plus a good part of mod/SETA elements), looting battlefields (in V4.00 you even find abandoned ships there), collecting the "standard" abandoned ships around and (last but not least) forcing pilots out of their ships for a start (2-3 Minotaur Raiders are always handy), then capturing them to sell or use (SCA especially since there is no rep loss with them).

Before you know it you end up with a fleet and some millions in the bank and you have utilised the think part of the game...

[Skeeter]

Some negatives is.

Some copy n paste designs for ships.

Teladi dont look nice like from x2 with military uniforms and stand up straight and have cool voices, there half pint lizards with no clothes lol, i dont like em, change em back please.

Most aliens look the same, in the face, give some aliens some facial hair lol.

The 3gb limit for gpu vram, should be for min req. Those that bought 8gb cards are getting screwed with limited visuals (close up ship textures) look poor cos they use scaled up tiny textures to fit large panels on ships, it looks horrid imo. Keep a limit for 3gb for min req on low gpu details but allow a scale up of detail esp textures to fill up more gb on better gpus please let my vega 56 8gb card get used more please for high or ultra settings at least for textures dept. It shouldnt affect low settings that run at 3gb. Since were using diff settings for ultra. I know one of the devs said hes trying to better optimise the 3gb limit but please, open this up. Low setting -3gb req, ultra - can use more say 5gb or up to 7gb, as alot of cards even cheap ones can use 8gb these days.

Also try to cull some polys on stations geometry i think its cos of the wide fov all the detail when ur on foot in stations kills fps on stations cos when ur away from stations fps shoots up. Yes normal fps when away from stations even with the universe sim.. Its just when ur on stations the fps is iffy. Probs too much detail cos of the wide fov imo. Also lack of lods on the ships possibly, tho i know u cant lower em too much or it will look bad cos of u being close to em on stations when on foot and u can see them docked. Its that or you use some heavy scripts when on foot on a station. Its weird tho cos small stations are fine generally its only the big ones with lots of docking bays or modules i think that affect fps.

Also a negative is wheres my x2 like campaign, with story, npcs, ingame cutscenes, a cool new bad guy, save the world stuff. Hope its coming eventually ive been patient and not gona play proper till it comes.

[GCU Grey Area]

Almost the same way I do... You get your "piggybank" money from opening Data Vaults (plus a good part of mod/SETA elements), looting battlefields (in V4.00 you even find abandoned ships there), collecting the "standard" abandoned ships around and (last but not least) forcing pilots out of their ships for a start (2-3 Minotaur Raiders are always handy), then capturing them to sell or use (SCA especially since there is no rep loss with them).

Fascinating how different people approach the game. I do virtually none of that!

Haven't bothered with the Data Vaults since the patch which meant the timeline entries were retained for subsequent games (was always more interested in the lore than the other stuff in them). Don't do much battlefield looting early on, or claiming abandoned ships - don't like to do that unless it was me who smashed the ship into it's component parts, forced them to bail, or captured them with my marines. Even in the latter case it's mostly when one of the factions has offered a weapon mod as reward - often find I'm stealing far more ships for SCA than from them!

For me the early game is primarily about boosting rep with the factions, mostly through missions & trade. Spending time opening Data Vaults, looting battlefields, collecting abandoned ships, etc, just slows that down. Know that eventually I'll have more money than I know what to do with, so don't focus all that much on it in the early game. Getting my rep up ASAP is the priority, to unlock the good gear at shipyards, trade subscriptions, etc.

[dtpsprt]

Fascinating how different people approach the game. I do virtually none of that!

Haven't bothered with the Data Vaults since the patch which meant the timeline entries were retained for subsequent games (was always more interested in the lore than the other stuff in them). Don't do much battlefield looting early on, or claiming abandoned ships - don't like to do that unless it was me who smashed the ship into it's component parts, forced them to bail, or captured them with my marines. Even in the latter case it's mostly when one of the factions has offered a weapon mod as reward - often find I'm stealing far more ships for SCA than from them!

For me the early game is primarily about boosting rep with the factions, mostly through missions & trade. Spending time opening Data Vaults, looting battlefields, collecting abandoned ships, etc, just slows that down. Know that eventually I'll have more money than I know what to do with, so don't focus all that much on it in the early game. Getting my rep up ASAP is the priority, to unlock the good gear at shipyards, trade subscriptions, etc.

The "easy" and readily accessible Data Vaults are 14 x an average 200K each = 2.8 mil = 2 M miners well equipped, one for Nividium in GE and one in BHS (The Nividium will cover the expenses of the research and the repairs/upgrades of found/captured ships)...

A battlefield between any two factions will yield at least 4 Programmable Field Arrays = 0.5 mil plus "change" (another 0.5 mil at least), if it involves the Xenon more than 1 spacefly caviar and about 10-15 sedatives (you need 9 for that distant part in the Paranid plot) and more modparts than one can use of all colours...

3 Minotaur Raiders = 39 Marines in a fast moving "Fleet" that will smash the turrets of any L (even XL) boarding target, approach almost instantly to release said Marines, zoom around like angry bees to protect the boarding operation and "get the hell out of Dodge" after that.

A fast PHQ mission ensures that you'll buy only the S storage from any rep and the connecting crosses (I use to connect the components on stations). The rest will be "hacked" so rep is not that much important until you have the money for the Wharf it can come a bit later.
The "bringers" of those research resources are the PHQ Gorgon (the one you get if you take the mission in PAR or HOP space), the Osprey from Family Regard, the Courier from Nopileo's Fortune II, the Callisto from the Hatikvah plotline and the 3 above mentioned Minotaurs.
The "Sacrificial Lamb" for the PHQ is the Elite in Grand Exchange I (that will also give 400K in equipment and 100K selling it just before you take place for the Experiment to begin), unless you can make a SCA Kestrel bail out faster .

Providing rep +10 with Arg (very easy and fast, since escorting the escaped slave ship or the Argon expedition will give you +8 just like that, the other 2 from the BHS Nividium mining) one of the Raiders is ideal for the Hatikvah plot line after you get the Callisto. It will withstand the attack when you hack intel on the SCA Station and even make one or two of these ships bail (good old trustworthy and survivable Falcon or Buzzard or both) and make a mess of the Nova and the Eclipse that guard the lockbox with the hallucinogenics, it will also give you another one when you defend the Hatikvah ships right after the meeting with the SCA lieutenant. If you can combine it with Shield Strength research it's a 10 out of 10, not to mention making a joke of the weapons cache in the weapons research (of course on +10 with ARG all the above M ships get Flak turrets).

The Perseus Vanguard in Silent Witness XII (with the easily obtainable green drag mod) will make a joyride of the timed run for the Engine Research.

The Oddy in Faulty Logic will make the "cornerstone" of your first fleet.

As your "fleet" will take some time to gather the resources for Teleportation stage 3, the Nividium miners will get the money for an Incarcatura or Sonra to bring the resources for Teleportation stage 4 and up.

All the above are for free. Unfortunately that's where the "think" part of X4 ends (for me at least) because after that (you are about 12h in the game) there is actually no challenge. It will take some 10-12h more to gather the 100 mil to buy the Wharf blueprints and build it then game over... everything is predictable and boring...

[MSterling]

Using valuable resources and time

Is their call. YOUR opinion doesn't define what is a waste of time.

[GCU Grey Area]

All the above are for free. Unfortunately that's where the "think" part of X4 ends (for me at least) because after that (you are about 12h in the game) there is actually no challenge. It will take some 10-12h more to gather the 100 mil to buy the Wharf blueprints and build it then game over... everything is predictable and boring...

Yep, can agree with you there, too much free & easy stuff can ruin the game. That's why I don't do any of it - no scavenging Data Vaults/battlefields (unless I was personally involved in the battle), no free ships, no nividium mining &, as mentioned earlier in the thread, definitely no wharves or shipyards (by far the most egregious money printing devices in the game at present). May be why I only get to the boring & predictable part of the game where I have too much stuff after about 30-50 in-game days (several months real time), rather than in a matter of hours. Prefer to take my time & enjoy the game, rather than rush as fast as possible towards a restart.

[Gavrushka]

All the above are for free. Unfortunately that's where the "think" part of X4 ends (for me at least) because after that (you are about 12h in the game) there is actually no challenge. It will take some 10-12h more to gather the 100 mil to buy the Wharf blueprints and build it then game over... everything is predictable and boring...

Yep, can agree with you there, too much free & easy stuff can ruin the game. That's why I don't do any of it - no scavenging Data Vaults/battlefields (unless I was personally involved in the battle), no free ships, no nividium mining &, as mentioned earlier in the thread, no wharves or shipyards. May be why I only get to the boring & predictable part of the game where I have too much stuff after about 30-50 in-game days (several months real time), rather than in a matter of hours. Prefer to take my time & enjoy the game, rather than rush as fast as possible towards a restart.

12 hours into a new game, and I've 2 million and three ships, the two additional ones were found and a bail, not bought. - I guess if your goal is to make money, and you can within 12 hours, then that is the scope of the game for you *as things stand.* - My only goal, early game, is to have a blast, and then run screaming to the nearest defence station when a K takes an interest in me.

For me, making the late game more distant is part of the natural way I play, and it'd be wrong to criticise those who become property tycoons in the time it takes me to get a little padding for my pilot's chair. Perhaps the problem is that there's no real barrier to forward momentum in the late game. Nothing in the Universe reacts to the player's growing strength and dominance. Hell, most factions don't react to their own stations being blown apart. You can build a shipyard in Argon Prime, sell only to the Split, and the Argon are fine with that. - I know the devs will argue it's impossible to balance factions turning on players for such an act, but I'd also argue, they don't have to. - So the faction wins and defeats the player, maybe calling a ceasefire with others while they do. - Let the player have the chance of losing. Let there really be stakes and a challenge. - Hell, break the rule of 'everything simulated' and have armadas appear from the planet.

The talk of balance has to be a more fluid thing. - *There is no balance late game. The player owns the Universe.* That, I feel is the most fundamental thing that needs addressing. - And it needs addressing (potentially) by the game entering hardcore mode and leaving it for the player to try and balance their game not the AI.

I'd love losing. - I'd love having to reload an earlier set of saves (of course, we all keep numerous backups, don't we? LOL) or even admitting I was beat and having to start again. I know my ideas have more holes than my combat ships after licking an I's hull, but what I'm suggesting is accept there's a point later in the game when 'simulated everything' can never work because the player ain't simulated. - I may be totally wrong, but I fear Egosoft don't take certain actions based on the 'purity' of the simulation.

Rambling over...

[GCU Grey Area]

12 hours into a new game, and I've 2 million and three ships, the two additional ones were found and a bail, not bought. - I guess if your goal is to make money, and you can within 12 hours, then that is the scope of the game for you *as things stand.* - My only goal, early game, is to have a blast, and then run screaming to the nearest defence station when a K takes an interest in me.

Pretty much the same here. Out of idle curiosity just reloaded an old archived save from around 15 hours into my current game (closest I could get to the 12 hour mark). This was everything I owned at the time: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zihm5yfe4den5 ... 1.jpg?dl=0.

Agree the problem is the late game. I'm generally having a blast until I get to the point where I have billions & not the slightest idea what to do with them. Up until that point I still have to think about allocation of resources (e.g. how many ships to buy for a new station, etc). Once I've got that first billion however money ceases to have any relevance whatsoever & a lot of the fun drains out of the game as a consequence.

[Gavrushka]

You shame me with your opulence, GCU! LOL

And I'd like the late game issues to be along the lines of 'do I try and save my shipyard or cut my losses and build elsewhere' and not 'should send a fleet to take out the last Xenon sector while I sip coffee and stare into the garden' or 'should I replace all my 'L' traders with Auxiliaries, each with 5 Behemoth escorts.'

[jlehtone]

All the above are for free. Unfortunately that's where the "think" part of X4 ends (for me at least) because after that (you are about 12h in the game) there is actually no challenge.

One could argue that that is not the "Think" part. Not for you. Not anymore. You already know what, where, and how which makes it a "standard procedure".

IMHO, the "Think" is in how to play the game without becoming bored ...

[Gavrushka]

IMHO, the "Think" is in how to play the game without becoming bored ...

And this is made easier with Egosoft's cooperation. I 'think' they are thinking very hard on it now, just as they always have, and I don't doubt will come up with some great late game ideas to encourage people to continue playing.

(I've abandoned my late game, and have just restarted. - I shall continue to play an 'early game' until such point the late game becomes more of a challenge. Only then will I start building beyond one or two stations.)

*edit* - changed wording above as I'd said the direct opposite of what I'd meant. - Thanks Alan!

[dtpsprt]

One could argue that that is not the "Think" part. Not for you. Not anymore. You already know what, where, and how which makes it a "standard procedure".

IMHO, the "Think" is in how to play the game without becoming bored ...

Not really... I'm not a "wonder boy" (or wonder grandad actually). Even the lack of documentation and the totally outdated Wiki (the Egosoft one, not the nonexistent in-game) makes the new players, whether they have played previous X games or not, search feverently for answers in forums and, of course, "stumble" in all these. In that aspect X3 AP was the best, since the abandoned Khaak ships would appear in random.
It would have been a good thing if the abandoned ships (and the Data Vaults too) were randomly positioned in each gamestart to begin with, along with the system resources which should be detectable in game and not "guessed" as they are now. One game start should make Argon Prime a treasuretrove of resources, another should not for example. The only thing that makes most sense is the position of the HQ right in the centre of the map with easy and fast access everywhere, maybe it should be declared a "neutral" sector with ownership impossible to everybody, the player included.

I agree with the effort not to be bored with playing the game but Egosoft is not helping us at all: Trading through ships is practically forbidden and Stations are practically forced on the player. Just tweaking these things instead of reworking this (flawed in my opinion) approach just extends the time before the "inevitable", does not offer anything new or changes anything... the "think" part is the last one in the que, while it should have been the first...

P.S. If I were Egosoft, I would have speeded the "Creative (Free) Start" instead of putting it on the backburner way in front of any DLC. For now I have stopped any vanilla attempt and playing with the mod that opens it (even rough at the edges). I absolutely love to have a towel in my inventory (in case I need to hitch a ride in space) and the Brass Telescope. Even the Nividium Scale Scrapper when I'm playing as Teladi!!!

[GCU Grey Area]

Trading through ships is practically forbidden

What the hell are you talking about now? Some of the things you say seem completely nonsensical to me. Trading is a huge chunk of what I do in the early-mid game - it's how I raise the cash to build my stations & buy my ships. There's absolutely nothing preventing me from trading, so why do you feel it is forbidden?