3.0 - Boarding now broken?

[w.evans]

Hi Bernd,

I think that there really should be a way to communicate relative force strengths in-game. Right now, all we have is trial and error, and that can get frustrating, especially relevant to you, perhaps, if you're trying to attract new players, and keep old players coming back in 3.0.

I personally don't mind numbers on the screen, I do use the Boarding Options mod, if only for that; but I do get how it's much cooler if it were integrated into the cockpit. I also agree that there should be a better way to communicate this than showing the numbers. Maybe a color somewhere visible that turns from red to amber to green as a target's defence strength goes lower relative to the player's attack strength? Changing reticle color? Maybe the color of the hull could change in the overlay when in ship scanning mode? That way it could tie in nicely with the pre-scan function that's being planned.

edit: added "relevant..." in the first paragraph to make it a tad bit clearer, maybe.

Und eine schöne, ruhige, und fröhliche Weihnachten wünsche ich Euch!

[dmk]

FYI: I just posted this on facebook on this topic:

http://youtu.be/gATSfKtPL4w


Looking forward on your opinions...

-Bernd

very funny thing about speed up repair process:
I did not have option to transfer drones and install them , only as cargo,
and then I remembered obvious thing - you need to blowup drones bay both to significantly drop resistance, and as Yisha mission to help your marines.

we really need specific fight command for armed freighter(or special XL ship type):
assist repair, transfer wares, and protect.

and skunk special weapon - repair laser or specific drone control, to speedup repair specific module of ship(i.e. you want to jump, you need to get jumpdrive repaired first, or you need to run - then engines, or you need to fight at place - then shields and weapons).


P.S. and fix bug that engineer is repairing modules 100 times faster when player is out of zone, and hull 5 times faster than engines.
and pathing http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/431 ... 5A59AC1B8/
(titurel's collided after transfer complete (both ships shields gone), when engines was repaired,
(I did stop first (healthy) titurel manually right after exchange))
and main shield generator's personal shield should be MUCH weaker
(but it should be MUCH harder to hit), while it's health significantly increased(should not die from 4 shots, when hacked).
full list of boarding related bugs in 3.0
is here http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=375161
~10 small bugs (but some of them very important)

[laminblake]

FYI: I just posted this on facebook on this topic:

http://youtu.be/gATSfKtPL4w

One of the most popular activities in X Rebirth explained - Boarding. With the right crew and a careful choice of your target you can get very expensive cap ships. But you have to slowly work your way up from weak (cheap) ships to gradually more expensive ships to give your crew members enough time to gain experience. Only a crew of mainly Veteran and Elite marines will stand a chance against the very strong carrier or destroyer ships.

What I did not post is the actual strength of the three tiers of marines. Marines are 0.5 Veterans 1.5 and Elite are 5. Maybe this helps you guys a bit to estimate your own strength.

We are discussing to give the player a better idea of his own strength but I am not a fan of simply showing him a total score that can be directly compared to the strength of the target ship, but the goal would be that an experienced player has a clue of his strength.

Obviously there is always also some randomness at work and of course the influence of the missions you play, but the base strength of your marines added up and your marine commander are the most important factors.

Looking forward on your opinions...

-Bernd

Hi Bernd,

I don't see any reason why we shouldn't be able to see our boarding party strength vs the enemy's resistance rating. I think a good way to balance would be to have an option pre-boarding to scan the ship using a drone which would give you a success vs fail % estimate.

The way it's set up now destroying all the turrets and generators on a ship will drop the enemy's resistance rating but 20-30 points but for some reason destroying the drone bay drops it by around 80 points. Why is that?

I think the way it should be done is that each cap ship has a base resistance rating determined by the type of ship. That rating would decrease as the hull is damaged, destroying turrets/drone bays would have no effect initially. Once boarded if you succeed with yisha's requests within the period of time (should be a race) then your forces receive a rating bonus, if you fail, the enemy receives a bonus. During boarding there should always be these events to give bonus's so a requirement for boarding should be a trojan drone (in case you have blown up all the turrents beforehand) and if you don't have one the enemy will automatically win that event giving them a bonus.

As of right now boarding is a blind shot. I have no idea why my forces strength is. Fortunately I've been using the boarding options mod which tells me everything i need to know but it may make it a little too easy as there should be some chance involved (not all battles are won with numbers alone). Also given the higher chances of failure, I believe that if you lose a boarding, your forces should have a % chance (based on resistance rating) to retreat back to the ship. All or nothing seems kind of harsh.

[SPzzz]

Hi guys,

let me return to something that I feel wasn't mentioned enough or was pretty much ignored. Most of the players will not watch youtube tutorial - even if it had useful information - not to mention get to the forum to find and spend an hour browsing existing discussion, and only a few from all of the players will be willing to start the conversation or participate. So the point is, hopefully the haters have left the forum and we can enjoy a calm talk between fans who don't mind editing XML's and writing down magical numbers of 0.5, 1.5 and 5.0 on another sticker, but you know, there're other people too who are waiting for the game to become playable.

On the actual topic, how in the universe do these turrets, engines and whatnot actually prevent the already in-progress boarding operation, i.e. after the modules are docked and maybe given some const&/RNG time to go through the hull ? The hull strength and the droids are much more relevant but still are given too much of a value, overall the system doesn't make sense. In before it didn't have much either but at least it was casual enough not to worry about it, because you know - casual mechanics don't need it.

Back to the numbers, if I don't see the offensive rating of my own crew being lead by my own employee, how and why am I able to see the defensive rating of (often hostile) ships ?

[w.evans]

if I don't see the offensive rating of my own crew being lead by my own employee, how and why am I able to see the defensive rating of (often hostile) ships ?

Good point.

[Snafu_X3]

On the actual topic, [..] The hull strength and the droids are much more relevant but still are given too much of a value, overall the system doesn't make sense.

IMO hull strength should be reduced with the marines' 'cutting' part (to use an X3 metaphor) - ie Stage 2. We now know that there are 5 stages to boarding (as before), but some appear to have different ...umm.. mechanics?

if I don't see the offensive rating of my own crew being lead by my own employee, how and why am I able to see the defensive rating of (often hostile) ships ?

WHS!!:)

*

• Stage 1: boarding pods in flight
  Stage 2: marines cutting hull
  Stage 3: fighting to engineering/command/armoury
  Stage 4: consolidating command & prep for ship control: computer hack
  Stage 5: completed successful hack of command computer; ship now registers <player> ID

3, 4 & 5 are obviously internal operations; 1 & 2 are external

These are /not/ game observations, just my speculation..

[w.evans]

• Stage 1: boarding pods in flight
  Stage 2: marines cutting hull
  Stage 3: fighting to engineering/command/armoury
  Stage 4: consolidating command & prep for ship control: computer hack
  Stage 5: completed successful hack of command computer; ship now registers <player> ID

3, 4 & 5 are obviously internal operations; 1 & 2 are external

There are 5 rounds of internal operations, as you put it, purely mathematical, although some random numbers are thrown in: having as much as a single marine survive a round advances to the next one. If a marine survives all 5 rounds, then you capture the ship. This is in addition to launching pods, and protecting them as they land.

ps. Is it ok to go into internals here, or should that be restricted to the modding forum?

[Thufar]

Well, I've read most of the last 11 pages, and have played a bit of the new boarding ops. mechanic.

I like the new boarding - much needed change. Bernd, don't change a thing.

I have no problem with destroying the drone bay and the onboard drones. Heck, there's many a thread complaining about the economy needing additional resource sinks. Here's one - and I'm 100% for it.

To those complaining the drone bay is repaired last - just incorrect - pay closer attention. According to my in-game experience, I've loaded drones on capped ships and watched them help do the remaining repairs. No - just plain no - the drone bay shouldn't be repaired first. Nor should it be repaired last, and it isn't.

Don't want to sit and wait while your ship is being repaired? Then don't. Leave it to the roll of the dice - or bring in some protection for it. There's a gameplay mechanic for that - its called a Defense Officer and subordinate ships.

In short, this is a nice addition to the THINK part of the main staples of the X Series.

I do have some additional considerations though.

• 1) What is the distance from a station that a ship must be before it is capturable without (much) rep. loss? Please make sure that is working properly.
  
  2) Please make NPC captains with poor navigation skills 'wander' farther away from stations so they become potential targets.
  
  3) I have not tried this lately, but in the past capital ships boosting between zones (in empty space) - when I blow their engines, the ship kept boosting to the destination zone. When engines are blown, either directly or with limpets, the ship should drop out of hyperdrive and stop in empty space. Please fix that if it isn't already.
  
  4) Please re-establish patrols between zones like early in the game. What I would be looking for is a few more boarding opportunities without taking significant rep loss.
  
  5) This is debatable to me, but empty space zones (especially those with no stations in them) should be considered out-of-zone and therefore not count with regards to rep. loss.
  
  6) I would also like to see resource deposits outside the zones for stations. I'd like to be able to happen upon some unsuspecting NPCs.

Regards,
Thu

[jasonbarron]

Well, I've read most of the last 11 pages, and have played a bit of the new boarding ops. mechanic.

I like the new boarding - much needed change. Bernd, don't change a thing.

I have no problem with destroying the drone bay and the onboard drones. Heck, there's many a thread complaining about the economy needing additional resource sinks. Here's one - and I'm 100% for it.

To those complaining the drone bay is repaired last - just incorrect - pay closer attention. According to my in-game experience, I've loaded drones on capped ships and watched them help do the remaining repairs. No - just plain no - the drone bay shouldn't be repaired first. Nor should it be repaired last, and it isn't.

Don't want to sit and wait while your ship is being repaired? Then don't. Leave it to the roll of the dice - or bring in some protection for it. There's a gameplay mechanic for that - its called a Defense Officer and subordinate ships.

In short, this is a nice addition to the THINK part of the main staples of the X Series.

I do have some additional considerations though.

• 1) What is the distance from a station that a ship must be before it is capturable without (much) rep. loss? Please make sure that is working properly.
  
  2) Please make NPC captains with poor navigation skills 'wander' farther away from stations so they become potential targets.
  
  3) I have not tried this lately, but in the past capital ships boosting between zones (in empty space) - when I blow their engines, the ship kept boosting to the destination zone. When engines are blown, either directly or with limpets, the ship should drop out of hyperdrive and stop in empty space. Please fix that if it isn't already.
  
  4) Please re-establish patrols between zones like early in the game. What I would be looking for is a few more boarding opportunities without taking significant rep loss.
  
  5) This is debatable to me, but empty space zones (especially those with no stations in them) should be considered out-of-zone and therefore not count with regards to rep. loss.
  
  6) I would also like to see resource deposits outside the zones for stations. I'd like to be able to happen upon some unsuspecting NPCs.

Regards,
Thu

Superb post. I couldn't agree more, Thufar.

[Artean]

*lots of words*

Well put and I agree, more or less, completely.

[antoniut]

First of all, how can you fit 50 marines in the Albion Skunk, with their respective pods? Compressed...


The boarding should have been, from the beginning, IMO, that the skunk could capture easy targets type ranahas, midir, etc., without the need to use marines (50?). With the need of some particular NPC aboard the skunk ,of course, and after a few shots here and there, the captain of the target ship could surrender, and then proceed to dock and capture, (a cinematic cut with Ren Otani and Yisha pointing with a gun to the captured captain would be nice) Seems too easy? Not if the target ship ask for help and help comes ...and also if the engines will issue "real" heat and will damage the skunk would not be so easy ... (you know what I mean).
In a hypothetical future real life, I do not think the transport ships will carry many crew to resist a pirate attack, (it would not be profitable ) but maybe escorts in known dangerous zones or almost certain yes.


Capital ship boarding is another matter. This now I think is near to perfection, maybe with some balancing adjustements, but NEVER without the help of some friendly ship capable of transport 50 hardened marines blood thirsty, with their pods ready!!!

Well, just some dreams

[mr.WHO]

Speaking of "surrender" - have anyone ever saw this dialoque option doing anything for any X-game and X-Rebirth specifically?

I think it's the most useless thing in history of computer games (at least the one I played).

[J. Spartan]

Just saying I also agree with Thufar 100%. Love the new boarding, it's a much needed change IMO. Now the process of stealing a destroyer doesn't feel like a quick stop in a bank.

[Snafu_X3]

Speaking of "surrender" - have anyone ever saw this dialoque option doing anything for any X-game and X-Rebirth specifically?

Yes, in (some?) previous X-games it did give the pilot an option to bail. In X:R I'm not sure if it's implemented fully, but during an assassination mission recently I was destroying the target & had a comm "Can we talk about this?" Opened the dialog (didn't have time to read it) & was given Accept/Deny options. I accepted & received ~600K, with a rep change. I'm not sure if the latter was related to the surrender option as the ship was destroyed less than a second later by something else, & a different mission completed just as I was doing the dialog bit.. but a nice twist if it works as I suspect

[werewolves?]

I have no problem with destroying the drone bay and the onboard drones. Heck, there's many a thread complaining about the economy needing additional resource sinks. Here's one - and I'm 100% for it.

To those complaining the drone bay is repaired last - just incorrect - pay closer attention. According to my in-game experience, I've loaded drones on capped ships and watched them help do the remaining repairs. No - just plain no - the drone bay shouldn't be repaired first. Nor should it be repaired last, and it isn't.

Are you sure? You only have the option to load drones as cargo when the drone bay is destroyed. Since the patch changed boarding, I've captured some 30 or so ships, the drone bay repairs last every time.

[J. Spartan]

Maybe a bit "off topic", but still on topic of boarding: I just saw a Balor in a cartel boss mission that had the "Board" option greyed out. What's up with that? Is it not possible to board Balors now?

[w.evans]

Only time I saw the "Board" option greyed out was after I called my Marine Officer back via radio rather than landing to pick him up. Had to go to the back and tell him to work on the Skunk again.

[mr.WHO]

Yeah, there is a bug that when you recall Marine Officer via radio it won't activate for Skunk, so you have to go to back of the skunk and tell him "work here".

[w.evans]

Hoping it's not a bug but a precursor to being able to have Marine Officers work on capital ships. (Maybe? Hopefully?)

[mr.WHO]

keep on dreaming