[MOD-TC]Ship Rebalance Mod:Continued v1.10b (27/6/11): Now Discontinued...

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killerog
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Post by killerog »

OOZ662 wrote:If you're working on trail emitters and whatnot, I've always been irritated by the Deca ships only having one emitter on the top-left engine when they have four engines. I reported it to killer, but I suppose he forgot.
Sorry about that. Lots of things I have been meaning to do to all my mods but just don't have the time. Bloody uni getting in the way :evil: :(

@ Paulwheeler :: If you don't mind sending me the scene files so I can update my mods that would be great :)
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OOZ662
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Post by OOZ662 »

killerog wrote:Sorry about that. Lots of things I have been meaning to do to all my mods but just don't have the time. Bloody uni getting in the way :evil: :(
Hey, who's the one with "derelict" in their signature? :P

That reminds me, I ought to check compatibility between this and my No Civilians mods. I've been using them together and they seem okay, but it never hurts to break out Notepad++ and Compare It! to make sure.
paulwheeler
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Post by paulwheeler »

killerog wrote:
@ Paulwheeler :: If you don't mind sending me the scene files so I can update my mods that would be great :)
Will do.

I've finished all the split ships now. I'll sort out the decas for this release too.
I will look at the trails of the other races in future releases.
vkerinav
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Post by vkerinav »

paulwheeler wrote:My feelings were that no fighters should be able to mount jump drives, hense the changes to XL for the ware size. I doubt trying to include wares as built in on ships that don't have the ware size compatiblity will work.

I can easily change a ship's ware size compatiblity though. However, I intended the jumpdrive changes to be an optional addon as I know some people may not like this change. If its optional then changing cargo compatiblity changes the playing field for those not using the jumpdrive addon pack.

Regarding TPs, I think as passenger transports they should be able to mount jumpdrives, so why not put them all to XL? Perhaps I could reduce their cargo bays too to compensate.
As mentioned above, Triplex scanners are built in on M5 raiders, and they work fine. I can only assume jumpdrives would also work. My modding abilities end with the X3 editor, and I've been unable to try it out.
I agree to an extent about scanners. At the moment there is really no point to the duplex scanner at all as everyone instantly puts a triplex in their ship.

Perhaps a better way is to severly ramp up the price of the triplex. If it cost, say 20,000,000 to buy people may think twice before putting one in a scout with only 1MJ shields! Or if it is a recon scout people will have to make damn sure they stay out of trouble. Also if we upped the price we could extend the ranges too a bit.
I have to disagree. If you do that, then you should charge a similar price for A. Sats. Not only that, but isn't equipment factored into the sale price of a ship? Capping fighters would become much more lucrative, if so.

I'd agree with a boost to scanner range instead if you can do so only on large ships. I'd be surprised if it were possible, but it would make sense to me.
I disagree that the price is not a good rebalancing mechanism. We just need to push things a little. In the current game its too cheap to just max everything out. I'd like to make engine tunings and rudder tunings more expensive too.
Drop TL prices by five million or so, and their minimum cargo bays by a third. That'd cost people.
Perhaps the new addon pack could change the jumpdrive to XL and increase the prices of the scanners, jumpdrive and engine tunings. Changing scanner ranges is simple too.

On that note - why is the comm range so short? We can send transmissions further than that with current technology. In my game I've upped the comm range. I could add that into the pack too if people wish.
I use Ulfius' Signal Boost for this.
Ulfius wrote:> Satellites get roughly 1.7x Boost to sensor range.
> Docking computer locks on at 5km, not 4
> Freight Scanner range increased to about 10km
> Comms Range increased from 25km to 40km
> Station sensors slightly better than triplex.
> Lasertowers fitted with duplex scanners.
> Transporter range increased to 10km.
paulwheeler
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Post by paulwheeler »

I don't see why increasing the price of the triplex scanner means that we'd have to do the same for advanced sats. Afterall, advanced sats are stationary, and this would perhaps increase their usefulness.

The only way to get a capital ship only scanner would be to make the triplex scanner XL size. I guess it could be done if the range of the duplex scanner is increased significantly. That way fighters would use the duplex and heavier ships would use the triplex... hmm... interesting... Lets be honest - does anyone actually use the duplex scanner? Its pretty redundant so making it the only scanner usable on fighters might not be a bad idea. M5 raiders then get the triplex built in too making them even more useful as scouts.

The main issue I have with Ulfus' changes is the docking computer and trasporter changes. I hate the docking computer anyway. Takes a big part of the simulation feel away for me.

I would have preferred it to be more like this:

Big stations have their own tractor beam based docking system.
Small stations have no tractor so you have to manually fly your ship in.
The docking computer basically enables the autopilot to fly the ship in.
None of this teleporting ships anywhere.

For a docking computer to teleport the ship into the station it would have to teleport itself. Surely an impossiblity.
killerog
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Post by killerog »

paulwheeler wrote:
killerog wrote:
@ Paulwheeler :: If you don't mind sending me the scene files so I can update my mods that would be great :)
Will do.

I've finished all the split ships now. I'll sort out the decas for this release too.
I will look at the trails of the other races in future releases.
Thankys
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Lancefighter
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Post by Lancefighter »

in my opinion the docking computer's jarring teleport is a necessary evil - do you really want to either a) manually dock all the time, especially in bigships, or b) deal with the autopillok?
neither are acceptable choices for me. the fact that it magically transports you across 5km or so is something that I feel I might have quit long ago without.
paulwheeler
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Post by paulwheeler »

Perhaps - although neither Elite nor Frontier had this magical trasporter docking and I didn't give up on them. I'm sure that if stations had the routes to docking bays laid out a bit more obviously it wouldn't be so bad. I mean present day airports have approach patterns and ATC so I would imagine future space stations to do something similar. You'd have to space out the sectors a bit more, but it could be done.

I guess its difficult to balance the fine line between full-on simulation and game. Besides, there's not much we can do about it anyway. But I don't like the idea of increasing the range of the docking computer. Feels too much like cheating.
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OOZ662
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Post by OOZ662 »

vkerinav wrote:As mentioned above, Triplex scanners are built in on M5 raiders, and they work fine. I can only assume jumpdrives would also work. My modding abilities end with the X3 editor, and I've been unable to try it out.
Changing default wares is pretty simple (albeit not as simple as you'd hope :D). There's a file called \types\WareLists.pck in 05.cat that contains lists of wares followed by a slash and line number. That line number is the one you find/can enter at the top of the Wares tab. You'll have to unpack it (ModManager is easiest) to edit it though, I think. I never noticed if X3E has a built in plain text editor or not...
paulwheeler wrote:Lets be honest - does anyone actually use the duplex scanner?
Yes, because I tend to be too lazy to haul a new fleet of ships outside Argon space to outfit them. :D
vkerinav
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Post by vkerinav »

Triplex upgrades don't include anything other than a few scanner components. The engines, power systems, etc. are all supplied by the ship they're installed on. Satellites come with their own generators, hull, and shielding, and equivalent scanner range. They should be more expensive than Triplex scanners.

I know I don't use the Duplex scanner as things are. I don't use M5s for anything other than sector exploration and satellite deployment, so I make sure to have M class cargo capacity. I doubt there's much that would make me use them for anything else.

Ulfius' increase to the docking computer is hardly noticeable. I use it, but its the extended com and satellite range that I can't do without. The transporter and freight scanner increases are nice, too.

OOZ662; I'll go try that out then.
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OOZ662
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Post by OOZ662 »

vkerinav wrote:OOZ662; I'll go try that out then.
Feel free to PM me if you need some help. :) Maneuvering through Egosoft's chains of dependencies (wares->WareLists->TShips for example) can be daunting.
vkerinav
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Post by vkerinav »

Well, that is pretty simple, once you figure everything out. I finally got a pre-installed jumpdrive on a Rapier. It worked fine. You forgot to mention the first number in the each line, which represents the number of wares in that group, though I had more trouble figuring out which ware was the jumpdrive.
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OOZ662
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Post by OOZ662 »

vkerinav wrote:You forgot to mention the first number in the each line, which represents the number of wares in that group
I knew there was something I wasn't remembering right. :shock:
paulwheeler
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Post by paulwheeler »

So what do people think about changing the Triplex scanner to XL size?

Of course this will only be for the optional Ship Systems Rebalance Pack along with the jumpdrive changes.

Proposed changes for the Ship Systems Rebalance Addon Pack:

Jumpdrive to XL
Triplex Scanner to XL
Increased scanner ranges on all inc sats and stations
Increased comm range
Increased prices of JD, Triplex and Adv Sats

All this should be save game compatible although any ships with the JD or triplex already installed will keep them until you remove them.

Discuss....



By the way, I've made some great changes to the particle trails for the next release. Now you can fly an Arrow at top speed without any corruptions in the the trails.

Just a bit more testing and fine tuning to do. Hopefully I'll release tonight.
Gavrushka
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Post by Gavrushka »

A week away and I've missed half a dozen pages!!

How will the Triplex Scanner as XL work with ships that have it as a built in component (some M5s?) - And how will it affect current games - All my ships have Triplex scanners - I like the idea BUT my concern is that the changes will adversely affect current games,

Increases to scanner ranges - Will they have any performance impact? What will be the impact on Advanced Satellite auto deploys from Mods such as Gazz's? Will they space according to new range?

The Jump Drive is ridiculously cheap for what it does - And I wish it could be made to take up Cargo Space too (200-300)

I'd have factory prices upped if that were in the scope of this too mind.
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OOZ662
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Post by OOZ662 »

paulwheeler wrote:By the way, I've made some great changes to the particle trails for the next release. Now you can fly an Arrow at top speed without any corruptions in the the trails.
You mean you fixed the reversed trails during SETA?! I'd worship you...
killerog
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Post by killerog »

I don't think he meant that, as far as I am aware that is an engine bug that has never been fixed. I think he means where the trail turns into a white ball when you go over to a certain speed. Something that was a pain to sort out for every one.
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paulwheeler
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Post by paulwheeler »

Yes its the bug where trails turn to a white ball at high speed. Its sorted now for the Arrow and Starburst at max speed. Of course if you overtune them there will come a point where the trail will mess up. But for standard tunings its all fine.

The trails appearing in front of a ship during SETA bug is a rendering issue and cannot be fixed by a mod. I think it is due to the skipping of frames due to the high speed and extra strain put on the system during SETA. The engine itself would need fixing so its either an Egosoft fix or nothing. I seriously doubt it will ever be fixed as it probably means a serious code overhaul.

Gavrushka wrote:A week away and I've missed half a dozen pages!!

How will the Triplex Scanner as XL work with ships that have it as a built in component (some M5s?) - And how will it affect current games - All my ships have Triplex scanners - I like the idea BUT my concern is that the changes will adversely affect current games,

Increases to scanner ranges - Will they have any performance impact? What will be the impact on Advanced Satellite auto deploys from Mods such as Gazz's? Will they space according to new range?

The Jump Drive is ridiculously cheap for what it does - And I wish it could be made to take up Cargo Space too (200-300)

I'd have factory prices upped if that were in the scope of this too mind.
Ships that have it built in and ships that already have it mounted won't be affected until you uninstall the triplex and then try and put it back in again.

I'd imagine the auto deploy spacing will be fixed to the default ranges. But it just means the new ranges will overlap a bit.

There is no way to make the jump drive take up space as far as I am aware. I will increase the price though.

Factory prices aren't really in the scope of this. Just ship related stuff.
paulwheeler
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Post by paulwheeler »

UPDATE RELEASED - v0.67
--------------------------------

Please update your cockpit packs and trail packs as well as the main mod.

Major changes:

- correct trail emitter positions for all Split, Teladi and Deca fighters.
- Superfreighters rebalanced.
- tweaked particle trails to get rid of high speed glitches and to compensate for most ships now having several emitters.
- Updated cockpit packs to 1.25.
- Various other fixes. See changelog for details.
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OOZ662
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Post by OOZ662 »

killerog wrote:I think he means where the trail turns into a white ball when you go over to a certain speed. Something that was a pain to sort out for every one.
Hmmm, I'd never heard of that one myself.
paulwheeler wrote:The trails appearing in front of a ship during SETA bug is a rendering issue and cannot be fixed by a mod. I think it is due to the skipping of frames due to the high speed and extra strain put on the system during SETA. The engine itself would need fixing so its either an Egosoft fix or nothing. I seriously doubt it will ever be fixed as it probably means a serious code overhaul.
I know, but you still got my hopes up. :oops: :D

Side note, all my email alerts stopped coming...I think the forum server is in a state of controlled wildfire or something. :lol:

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