Split from X-Rebirth Steam poll thread - Round 2

[Zippo342]

Hmm....

The only thing that people do not seem to get trough the thick sculls of the Steam lovers, is that the just do not want to depend on some remote third party in another country to just play their games...

And - yes I know about the "temp off-line" modus, but that is NOT the same as "not being depended of remote third party's to install and run their games".

Why is it so difficult to just grant the above mentioned users that opinion?

Guess it is some kind of fanaticism to fiercely deny the right to have another opinion, and that's the reason I lost my appetite to visit this part of the forum very often. For now - I am more interested in the upcoming X-Tended mod than I am for the new game, just because of this endless attacks. And that is sad in some way...

Headquarters to the company is in the US but they have servers all around the world serving clients. I seem to recall at least 5-6 sites just in Europe that I could select when I was in Afghanistan.

Really you're not relying on an overseas company so much as their overseas branches.

[Antaran]

Not dodging the question.I have stated many times that I do not like having Steam attached to my games or my pc for the same reason mentioned numerous times by many members of this forum.Did you even bother reading the 40 pages + of reasons that I googled

Actually I read through a number of them. Interesting thing I noticed...in about 3 or so of the points on the first page alone, when I read the through the entire forum thread...the problem pretty much always came back to the user or their PC.

One person had a faulty router(and knew it was faulty btw), but posted it as a Steam problem. Another person had a problem with their PC and confirmed it to be so when they checked and realized that they could connect fine from their second PC.

These are problems they would not have encountered with a DVD retail that has disk activation.

Of course google anything thing and you will get numerous hits ,just pointing to all that see the a rosy garden some see dandyLions

.......

Now do the same with Windows, and yet you still use it.. hmm..

Well the problem ofcourse is that most software has faults and can break down.

Non-steam version problems:
1. Windows
2. The game

Steamed version problems:
1. Windows
2. The Game
3. Steam Client (Problems with the client itself)
4. Steam Account
5. Steam Server (Problems with networking on the server side, f.e. down for whatever reason)
6. Isp/router/network.

This is also one of the reasons why I do not wan´t steam, its just one more item between me and my games that can cause problems and break down, sure you can point out that windows has problems sometimes but why would we wan´t yet another thing that can break down also, this only increases the chance of problems.

[Alan Phipps]

@ JClosed: In the same post you said this:

I lost my appetite to visit this part of the forum ... just because of this endless attacks. And that is sad in some way...

but also this:

... people do not seem to get trough the thick sculls of the Steam lovers ...

Irony there I think?

@ All: Keep it polite please. This should be a reasoned debate not a slanging match.

[Nova Scotia]

@ JClosed: In the same post you said this:

I lost my appetite to visit this part of the forum ... just because of this endless attacks. And that is sad in some way...

but also this:

... people do not seem to get trough the thick sculls of the Steam lovers ...

Irony there I think?

@ All: Keep it polite please. This should be a reasoned debate not a slanging match.

Unfortunately it does not seem to be a debate.

Side 1, voted

wants to have choice to have a DVD version instead of being tied in to a third party vender Steam.When asked by the Steam team why not, we gave our reason and our opinions
Side 2 voted

They are happy with the Steam client and do not require a DVD version or don't care. Good for them.

Unless this is a Steam forum or supported by Steam why should we have to explain are vote over and over again.How is not wanting Steam for whatever reasons so offensive and requires such a defensive posture from side 2.

Do they own shares

[Slashman]

Unless this is a Steam forum or supported by Steam why should we have to explain are vote over and over again.How is not wanting Steam for whatever reasons so offensive and requires such a defensive posture from side 2.

Do they own shares

If someone says 'I don't want to be tied to any online 3rd party system for my games', then I can respect that this is their opinion and they have a right to it.

When someone says instead 'Steam is the absolute worst thing ever because it <insert horrible deed/transgression here>', and there is no truth to it(or at least so little truth as to be highly inaccurate), then you are going to get people who protest because what is being said isn't accurately portraying the system.

The question has been asked why people are defending Steam. I can also ask the question as to why people are so bent on tearing it down that they bring false information about it instead of simply stating that they do not want to use it because they dislike it or cannot due to internet limitations.

One other thing: Deepsilver may or may not care enough to read this thread. But if they are, do you think they will be moved by blatant scaremongering peppered with half-truths? Or would they rather see plain and concise reasons for people who want a Steamless DVD release?

Note that I'm not accusing you specifically of this. I'm just quoting your post to answer the question as to why it would matter to a Steam user enough to reply.

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

When someone says instead 'Steam is the absolute worst thing ever because it <insert horrible deed/transgression here>', and there is no truth to it(or at least so little truth as to be highly inaccurate), then you are going to get people who protest because what is being said isn't accurately portraying the system.

...and for those who may be undecided on the issue, hearing a lot of unsubstantiated scaremongering may put them off purchasing the game which in the long term only hurts Egosoft.

For people who are arguing from the position that their voice should be heard because they are 'long term fans' of the X series to be engaging in activity that's potentially detrimental to the very company they profess to support so much is, well.. it's a difficult position to reconcile really.

[exogenesis]

Good grief, JClosed may be right. There still seems to be a continuing attempt to
"convert those people who don't want steam".

There hasn't been any 'scaremongering' for quite some time in this thread,
perhaps there was some more 'blatant' opinions nearer the start.

What is it that makes some people want to try & change the choice/decision that others have made?

This is about wanting to support ES if they can manage to add a package option
that is acceptable to people who don't want steam on their PC,
for whatever reason.

[Nova Scotia]

Good points both ,above 2 post,

But as I posted the links earlier ,the shortcomings of steam is not only made up opinions from these forums members but substantiated by the easiest of search on the internet

Steam ruined my enjoyment of Civ 5, for me that's a fact and waisted 60.00.
Go to CIV 5 forum and see how many games were ruined in offline play.

I can reload and reformat my pc with ease with all my Purchased and owned DVDs and backups with no Internet access ,to me that's important and can not be accomplished with Steam purchased games or software.

I can go on but I and many others have stated all of this before on this forum and many others and that is factual of our experiences with Steam.

[Photon Embargo]

Hi guys, I'm new here, and have read through chunks of this thread.

I've played a bit of all the X games and plan to buy rebirth.

I would like to take a moment to contextualize much of what I have read here and offer an "outsiders" perspective.

I don't care what platform Rebirth arrives on at the end of the day because it is inevitable that there is going to be some sort of hoops to jump to play it, like nearly every other game I've recently loved out there demands.

I could

A) say I won't play the game, not play it and miss out.

B) say I won't play the game, but relent, realizing all my arguing was a massive waste of effort.

C) Just give in, try it out, and if the experience is bad, swear never to buy a product from company "X" ever again - ie give benefit of the doubt first. (have any of you been so badly burnt so far to not trust how Rebirth will pan out?)

Digital distribution and DRM are here to stay, for better or worse. The world changes and either you change with it, or become miserable.

Example: Battlefield 3 runs on Origin. I was unhappy to have to deal with another distribution service on top of Steam. At the end of the day now, I don't really notice it. I could of fixated on it and become miserable, not bought the game, missed out or get angry every time I play it cause I need to launch Origin first - but I don't. I play it and have fun and close origin when I am finished.

In reality, I straddle 3x services. Impulse, Steam and now Origin. In a way this reminds me of format issues in the old days when games released only on CD, when floppy discs were standard.

Seriously, make your life better by accepting inevitable change and trying it. I can't imagine there is anything that can be done with a sample of under 1000 people on a forum to alter a companies methodology of distribution.

Forums are haven's for hardcore players usually, and are not representative of the masses, who have far less emotional investment in a product. Unfortunately, you guys are a narrow band within the sample. I am sure Deep Silver appreciate your input, but you are only one element of their audience.

For the record, I use steam a lot, was very reluctant to get it and engage it, don't love all of its features, but then again, I remember playing games on windows 95 and dealing with a litany of driver issues, incompatibility, networking problems, let alone bad sectors on floppy discs or scratched CD's and DVD's.

I once was doign a LAN session with a mate in WIN95 or 98, and the latest direct play drivers were not generally available. After spending 8 hours mucking around in frustration, i found a computer game magazine demo disc with direct play on it.

Every generation has its issues.

For those of you with no net connections, I sympathize with you, but I am afraid it's only going to get worse.

I think Rebirth will be a great game, with or without modded content, and do hope that the ability to play offline, and successfully mod it will occur for those of you for who it is a major issue.

Thanks for reading this far if you did.

Photon Embargo.

P.S. @Dreez

To Here is why connecting Rebirth (or any games) to Steam is bad.

1) Steamservers currently busy, please re-try install later.
2) Connection lost, please re-try install later.
3) No internet connection , cannot install even if you have Retail DVD.
4) Cannot execute game.exe because no connection to Steam was found.
5) Anything that keeps track of how much i've played is bad, because
if they can do that, what else can they read through Steam client !?!?.


I just bought Skyrim, and i couldn't play that game for a whole day
even tho i bought the DVD on retail, because the servers were busy...

So DO NOT affiliate Rebirth with Steam.

It's just one day. Yes its annoying, but its no worse than finding a buggy game, and scrambling to the companies website to find out there is so much demand, it takes a day or two to download it.

What happened if the shop ran out of stock when you went to buy it, or a cyclone whipped up and knocked out your power for half a week as it does where I live just when you installed it?

These annoyances occur, but unfortunately, life isn't annoyance free, and if it was, we could never appreciate well laid plans, efficiency or organisation

[Photon Embargo]

Steam ruined my enjoyment of Civ 5, for me that's a fact and waisted 60.00.
Go to CIV 5 forum and see how many games were ruined in offline play.

I had a similar issue with Fallout 3 when they decided to add windows gaming DRM ontop of steam and killed all my save games.

[EmperorJon]

Steam ruined my enjoyment of Civ 5, for me that's a fact and waisted 60.00.

Interestingly enough, CivV ruined my experience of CivV... no idea why. Played 49 hours, that's it. Just didn't like it.


On the topic of "trying to convert people";
How is that a bad thing?
They're trying to HELP. Sure, maybe some people try to be overly convincing or tend towards lying. Both sides are guilty. But the point is, these people get nothing out of your request. You not buying the game doesn't stop them from doing it. So whatever their motive, remember they're helping you...

[dougeye]

Hi guys, I'm new here, and have read through chunks of this thread.

I've played a bit of all the X games and plan to buy rebirth.

I would like to take a moment to contextualize much of what I have read here and offer an "outsiders" perspective.

I don't care what platform Rebirth arrives on at the end of the day because it is inevitable that there is going to be some sort of hoops to jump to play it, like nearly every other game I've recently loved out there demands.

I could

A) say I won't play the game, not play it and miss out.

B) say I won't play the game, but relent, realizing all my arguing was a massive waste of effort.

C) Just give in, try it out, and if the experience is bad, swear never to buy a product from company "X" ever again - ie give benefit of the doubt first. (have any of you been so badly burnt so far to not trust how Rebirth will pan out?)

Digital distribution and DRM are here to stay, for better or worse. The world changes and either you change with it, or become miserable.

Example: Battlefield 3 runs on Origin. I was unhappy to have to deal with another distribution service on top of Steam. At the end of the day now, I don't really notice it. I could of fixated on it and become miserable, not bought the game, missed out or get angry every time I play it cause I need to launch Origin first - but I don't. I play it and have fun and close origin when I am finished.

In reality, I straddle 3x services. Impulse, Steam and now Origin. In a way this reminds me of format issues in the old days when games released only on CD, when floppy discs were standard.

Seriously, make your life better by accepting inevitable change and trying it. I can't imagine there is anything that can be done with a sample of under 1000 people on a forum to alter a companies methodology of distribution.

Forums are haven's for hardcore players usually, and are not representative of the masses, who have far less emotional investment in a product. Unfortunately, you guys are a narrow band within the sample. I am sure Deep Silver appreciate your input, but you are only one element of their audience.

For the record, I use steam a lot, was very reluctant to get it and engage it, don't love all of its features, but then again, I remember playing games on windows 95 and dealing with a litany of driver issues, incompatibility, networking problems, let alone bad sectors on floppy discs or scratched CD's and DVD's.

I once was doign a LAN session with a mate in WIN95 or 98, and the latest direct play drivers were not generally available. After spending 8 hours mucking around in frustration, i found a computer game magazine demo disc with direct play on it.

Every generation has its issues.

For those of you with no net connections, I sympathize with you, but I am afraid it's only going to get worse.

I think Rebirth will be a great game, with or without modded content, and do hope that the ability to play offline, and successfully mod it will occur for those of you for who it is a major issue.

Thanks for reading this far if you did.

Photon Embargo.

P.S. @Dreez

To Here is why connecting Rebirth (or any games) to Steam is bad.

1) Steamservers currently busy, please re-try install later.
2) Connection lost, please re-try install later.
3) No internet connection , cannot install even if you have Retail DVD.
4) Cannot execute game.exe because no connection to Steam was found.
5) Anything that keeps track of how much i've played is bad, because
if they can do that, what else can they read through Steam client !?!?.


I just bought Skyrim, and i couldn't play that game for a whole day
even tho i bought the DVD on retail, because the servers were busy...

So DO NOT affiliate Rebirth with Steam.

It's just one day. Yes its annoying, but its no worse than finding a buggy game, and scrambling to the companies website to find out there is so much demand, it takes a day or two to download it.

What happened if the shop ran out of stock when you went to buy it, or a cyclone whipped up and knocked out your power for half a week as it does where I live just when you installed it?

These annoyances occur, but unfortunately, life isn't annoyance free, and if it was, we could never appreciate well laid plans, efficiency or organisation

Definetly the most sensible thing ive read in a long time in this thread, i myself am in a similar position/viewpoint on the issue but as soon as you say that there is not a problem with steam the hounds are biting at you ankles accusing you of being a full on steam fan boy lol i have had problems with steam but far less than with other softwares and DRM's etc

nothing is ever perfect but it also doesn't make it a bad thing at the same time!

[JClosed]

Steam ruined my enjoyment of Civ 5, for me that's a fact and waisted 60.00.

Interestingly enough, CivV ruined my experience of CivV... no idea why. Played 49 hours, that's it. Just didn't like it.


On the topic of "trying to convert people";
How is that a bad thing?
They're trying to HELP. Sure, maybe some people try to be overly convincing or tend towards lying. Both sides are guilty. But the point is, these people get nothing out of your request. You not buying the game doesn't stop them from doing it. So whatever their motive, remember they're helping you...

Not respecting someone's decision is not helping, but slapping someone in the face for making a decision the "helping" persons do not like.

Sorry - I respect the decision when somebody wants to use Steam, and I expect to get the same respect when I choose otherwise.

It seems to me just making the remark not wanting to use Steam (for personal or whatever reasons) is enough to be ridiculed or attacked.

Time and time again it is asked (by me and others) to at least respect someone's decision in this matter, but without any noticeable result.

It is this that lead me to the "thick skull" remark. Maybe I was wrong to say that, but I have no other words to describe this behaviour. I guess my problem is that English is not my native language. Can somebody else find a better (less offensive) word to describe the named behaviour? Thanks...

Anyway - I had enough for now. Maybe I will be back, but not in the short term...

[EmperorJon]

Sorry - I respect the decision when somebody wants to use Steam, and I expect to get the same respect when I choose otherwise.

It seems to me just making the remark not wanting to use Steam (for personal or whatever reasons) is enough to be ridiculed or attacked.

You see, I've yet to see any occurence of someone ridiculed for simply saying they don't want to use Steam. I bet if you just post "I don't want to use Steam because of my poor bandwidth" or "I don't want to use Steam because I've had definite issues with it in the past" nobody would ridicule you.
I also perfectly respect peoples' decisions.

[Deleted User]

When someone says instead 'Steam is the absolute worst thing ever because it <insert horrible deed/transgression here>', and there is no truth to it(or at least so little truth as to be highly inaccurate), then you are going to get people who protest because what is being said isn't accurately portraying the system.

...and for those who may be undecided on the issue, hearing a lot of unsubstantiated scaremongering may put them off purchasing the game which in the long term only hurts Egosoft.

For people who are arguing from the position that their voice should be heard because they are 'long term fans' of the X series to be engaging in activity that's potentially detrimental to the very company they profess to support so much is, well.. it's a difficult position to reconcile really.

Perhaps you yourself or possibly someone else who champions your pro-steam cause should take the time to create a thread (with mod permission) that lists the fundamental aspects of steam, i.e. in a constructive manner that fairly lists the facts of what adopting steam actually means for the user as well as the developer as opposed to a user buying a physical retail copy that does not require steam-works.

Anyone with enough fervour about steam could do it quite well, judging by previous explanations of why pro-steam players keep posting here when they are in fact already getting exactly what they want.

Then perhaps those who you consider may not be swayed to steam due to innacurate and unfair appraisals of steam can make a choice based on real information, and those that wish to post in this thread that they still fundamently object to steamworks can do so in a manner that doesn't constantly attract the attention of pro-steam users.

That would be the fairest way in my opinion.

I should also point out that getting the entire community together on this potential divide may well help your own cause. Whilst it remains speculation as to whether or not Egosoft will lose sales from people like myself who know the facts about steam and still choose to boycott rebirth, if an alternative was released in a steam free format it would certainly mean more sales, which means more money for Ego and DS and future enjoyment for not just anti-steam users but pro-steamers too.

[perkint]

I bet if you just post "I don't want to use Steam because of my poor bandwidth" or "I don't want to use Steam because I've had definite issues with it in the past" nobody would ridicule you.

Maybe not ridicule, but it would (and has on quite a few occasions) provoke a response saying, "Try again, your talking about problems from the past" or "The problems would have been you/your PC". Or if your problems are around internet access, "Sorry, but this is the future and you should either upgrade your net access or accept you're unlucky/living in a cave/a minority that doesn't matter".

These usually provoke a response from the poster, and we degenerate into the same arguments again

Instead of simply accepting it and allowing it to count as another post supporting the (in my opinion, vain) hope of a non Steam version (or of Egosoft being able to continue their past record of patching out the DRM).

But such is the way of the internet

Tim

[perkint]

Perhaps you yourself or possibly someone else who champions your pro-steam cause should take the time to create a thread (with mod permission)

I suspect the mods stance will still be that the Steam debate remains in the one thread. It has been attempted before and any thread about Steam (and a specific poster attempted it in more or less any thread ) will end up with the same repeated debate

Tim

[EmperorJon]

"Try again, your talking about problems from the past" or "The problems would have been you/your PC". Or if your problems are around internet access, "Sorry, but this is the future and you should either upgrade your net access or accept you're unlucky/living in a cave/a minority that doesn't matter".

In some cases however, they ARE talking about problems from the past and it MIGHT have been you or your PC!
As for the whole "This is the future" thing... that's kind of how I see it.
You have the right to complain that Deep Silver are not going to publish it in a way that is accessable to you, but you don't really have a right to say "Steam is the worst thing ever" just because you can't use it, which is what some people have been doing.

(None of this post directed at you or anyone in particular, it was just marking out some points)

[Deleted User]

Perhaps you yourself or possibly someone else who champions your pro-steam cause should take the time to create a thread (with mod permission)

I suspect the mods stance will still be that the Steam debate remains in the one thread. It has been attempted before and any thread about Steam (and a specific poster attempted it in more or less any thread ) will end up with the same repeated debate

Tim

I know, I follow this debate with great interest.

It's a shame though. Without such facts posted cleanly this thread may well reach another 100 pages.

I live in hope that the FACTS about adopting steam can be posted cleanly against the FACTS of not adopting it.

[TEKing66]

After trying Steam and failing miserably trying to get a Steam game installed (yes, because of my lowly dial-up connection). And contacting every ISP that might be able to provide me with a better option to access the internet (only to be told that they DO NOT service my area).

What other option do I have other than hoping that a Steam free version of the game will be made available?

I have the Superbox and so could get X3AP for free, if I could get it downloaded. But, Steam is telling me that to download 1 Gig of data is going to take me 50 days (this of course assumes that my connection doesn't get broken during that time).

In the end, I really don't care how I get any game. But I do care about getting it in a timely fashion and being able to play it without have to connect to the internet as I DO NOT care to play games online. Simply want to play a single player game without being restricted by another piece of software or my internet connection.

Yes, I understand that this is DS and(/or) Ego's decision to go to Steamworks. And I understand the benefits for Egosoft. Unfortuneately for me it is a decision that will be leaving me out and behind. The plain simple fact is that I can not get broadband and so find Steam to be useless in my circumstance. And, for me, a DVD with a Steam based game is essentially just an expensive paperweight. I would like to play X3AP and Rebirth just as I have played all games in the X series to date. Will I get to? It isn't looking to be the case. Does anyone but me care? Probably not. Have I accpeted that I may never get to play the new X games? Yes at this point I have! Does that make it any easier to swallow that fact? No, not in the least.