EGOSOFT and Deep Silver announce X Rebirth (updated 2011-07-29)

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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OnlineKenji
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Post by OnlineKenji »

shireknight wrote:I started disappointed but as I hear more about it the more interested I'm getting. The only thing I'm really disappointed about now is the lack of information we are getting.
Actually, the systems that the gates connect will be much larger and you will have the choice to move in the lanes or not, according to the gamescon description. So you will most likely be able to get that flying through the void of space feeling - if that is your thing. Personally, that would be a deal breaker for me. Not SETA and endless voids of space :(. Gates FTW!!
There are only two things in life that matter, and I have them both. They're not what you might think, and once you learn that you'll be much happier.
ThommoHawk
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Post by ThommoHawk »

Well, though I had the game for a while I just got around to completing Mass Effect 2 twice over. I love the interior of the Normandy 2, its crew and team you can interact with.

But what I wanted to do most in the game was to pilot the ship, and all your character can do with it is stroll up to Joker and watch him do the job (you can close the cockpit shutters, but that's all). So I spent a lot of time drooling at the pilot seat, but no satisfaction.

If X Rebirth provides a ship anything like the Normandy, with the bonus of being able to pilot it in the X universe using my joystick, then I will be getting the game for sure.
[XTrilogy]: Holy Argnu cows! I have found it! An asteroid of pure ore - 100% - I am rich! Now, I just need to find one like that made from silicon. hmmm, where do I want to go today?
X REBIRTH? "JUST A TOURIST until X4 IS RELEASED! Because That SUPERNOVA sure went FUBAR" (Quoting T.Hawk. Read all about it at: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=353678) :x3:
plynak
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Post by plynak »

OnlineKenji wrote:
shireknight wrote:I started disappointed but as I hear more about it the more interested I'm getting. The only thing I'm really disappointed about now is the lack of information we are getting.
Actually, the systems that the gates connect will be much larger and you will have the choice to move in the lanes or not, according to the gamescon description. So you will most likely be able to get that flying through the void of space feeling - if that is your thing. Personally, that would be a deal breaker for me. Not SETA and endless voids of space :(. Gates FTW!!
Well the problem is that this is only a plane copy of Freelancer. This is not necessary a bad thing as I like Freelancer a lot. But what discouraged me is the copy of Darkstar One in the way of having only one ship. No matter what they tell and promise, it still will be ONE ship. It was boring as hell in DSO and I doubt it will be different in Rebirth. Not to mention this goes against everything we are used to (well except Beyond the Frontier).
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igorstef
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Post by igorstef »

plynak wrote:
OnlineKenji wrote:
shireknight wrote:I started disappointed but as I hear more about it the more interested I'm getting. The only thing I'm really disappointed about now is the lack of information we are getting.
Actually, the systems that the gates connect will be much larger and you will have the choice to move in the lanes or not, according to the gamescon description. So you will most likely be able to get that flying through the void of space feeling - if that is your thing. Personally, that would be a deal breaker for me. Not SETA and endless voids of space :(. Gates FTW!!
Well the problem is that this is only a plane copy of Freelancer. This is not necessary a bad thing as I like Freelancer a lot. But what discouraged me is the copy of Darkstar One in the way of having only one ship. No matter what they tell and promise, it still will be ONE ship. It was boring as hell in DSO and I doubt it will be different in Rebirth. Not to mention this goes against everything we are used to (well except Beyond the Frontier).
You are missing important difference: DSO didn't have drones. If they do it wright it can even be lot more fun then physically flying each ship. It allows more freedom for game design. For example while you can have highly specialized, like small spy or kamikaze drone, there is nothing preventing game designers to make ship like drones. Of course it all depends on implementation but it can be done so that nothing important is sacrificed from the old concept and in fact it can even enrich it.

Problem is we don't have enough info for meaningful speculation :)
unknown1
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Post by unknown1 »

:cry:

As the day passes by ,i am getting more and more worried that we ain't gonna get any newsletter
plynak
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Post by plynak »

igorstef wrote:
plynak wrote:
OnlineKenji wrote:
shireknight wrote:I started disappointed but as I hear more about it the more interested I'm getting. The only thing I'm really disappointed about now is the lack of information we are getting.
Actually, the systems that the gates connect will be much larger and you will have the choice to move in the lanes or not, according to the gamescon description. So you will most likely be able to get that flying through the void of space feeling - if that is your thing. Personally, that would be a deal breaker for me. Not SETA and endless voids of space :(. Gates FTW!!
Well the problem is that this is only a plane copy of Freelancer. This is not necessary a bad thing as I like Freelancer a lot. But what discouraged me is the copy of Darkstar One in the way of having only one ship. No matter what they tell and promise, it still will be ONE ship. It was boring as hell in DSO and I doubt it will be different in Rebirth. Not to mention this goes against everything we are used to (well except Beyond the Frontier).
You are missing important difference: DSO didn't have drones. If they do it wright it can even be lot more fun then physically flying each ship. It allows more freedom for game design. For example while you can have highly specialized, like small spy or kamikaze drone, there is nothing preventing game designers to make ship like drones. Of course it all depends on implementation but it can be done so that nothing important is sacrificed from the old concept and in fact it can even enrich it.

Problem is we don't have enough info for meaningful speculation :)
Well so how many drones will it take to kill an M2? 10? 100? I do not want to fly drones, I want to fly my own M2. And since I will be denied this, I have lost interest in the game.
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amtct
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Post by amtct »

unknown1 wrote::cry:

As the day passes by ,i am getting more and more worried that we ain't gonna get any newsletter
I'm worried that we'll get just a newsletter.We should have a benchmark demo by now ,movies ,tutorials ,reviews ,how to play ,let's play :lol: ...etc.
Shrex
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Post by Shrex »

I don't understand people why doesn't want the gate system ... What do you want instead ? Sublight travel ? It will take hours ! Even with time compressor.

The only solution I see would be to adopt a system like we had in Independance War 2 (great game btw) :
- Light travel between systems in a galaxy + time compressor
- Lagrange gate between galaxies

Anyway, continue your very good job Egosoft !
plynak
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Post by plynak »

Shrex wrote:I don't understand people why doesn't want the gate system ... What do you want instead ? Sublight travel ? It will take hours ! Even with time compressor.

The only solution I see would be to adopt a system like we had in Independance War 2 (great game btw) :
- Light travel between systems in a galaxy + time compressor
- Lagrange gate between galaxies

Anyway, continue your very good job Egosoft !
Because it is a complete overhaul of an existing and proven system. Something like adding ammo to ME2. Why do not use a system from EVE online, where you warp to a desired destination?
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Chris0132
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Post by Chris0132 »

plynak wrote:
OnlineKenji wrote:
shireknight wrote:I started disappointed but as I hear more about it the more interested I'm getting. The only thing I'm really disappointed about now is the lack of information we are getting.
Actually, the systems that the gates connect will be much larger and you will have the choice to move in the lanes or not, according to the gamescon description. So you will most likely be able to get that flying through the void of space feeling - if that is your thing. Personally, that would be a deal breaker for me. Not SETA and endless voids of space :(. Gates FTW!!
Well the problem is that this is only a plane copy of Freelancer. This is not necessary a bad thing as I like Freelancer a lot. But what discouraged me is the copy of Darkstar One in the way of having only one ship. No matter what they tell and promise, it still will be ONE ship. It was boring as hell in DSO and I doubt it will be different in Rebirth. Not to mention this goes against everything we are used to (well except Beyond the Frontier).
That seems a little like saying that fallout 3 is better than mass effect because in mass effect you can only play ONE character, whereas in fallout 3 you can play whatever character you want.

Despite the only actual difference between the two games in that respect being that in fallout everybody doesn't call you shepard.

If I have one ship, but I can change how it handles and choose the guns on it, I essentially have the capacity to fly any ship short of an M2. Regardless if the game still calls it the same ship, that doesn't mean it functionally IS the same ship as far as flight mechanics are concerned.

Really speaking the only difference between ships in X3 are minor variations in speed and steering, what sort of guns you can put on it, and how big the various power supplies and cargo bays are. They are, essentially, the same ship with minor statistical variations. I don't honestly have any issue with the game recognising this and just giving you one cool ship and letting you pick the stats for it.

It seems like the complaint is less 'I can only fly one ship' and more 'I can't fly the one ship I liked in X3'
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Post by plynak »

Chris0132 wrote:
plynak wrote:
OnlineKenji wrote:
shireknight wrote:I started disappointed but as I hear more about it the more interested I'm getting. The only thing I'm really disappointed about now is the lack of information we are getting.
Actually, the systems that the gates connect will be much larger and you will have the choice to move in the lanes or not, according to the gamescon description. So you will most likely be able to get that flying through the void of space feeling - if that is your thing. Personally, that would be a deal breaker for me. Not SETA and endless voids of space :(. Gates FTW!!
Well the problem is that this is only a plane copy of Freelancer. This is not necessary a bad thing as I like Freelancer a lot. But what discouraged me is the copy of Darkstar One in the way of having only one ship. No matter what they tell and promise, it still will be ONE ship. It was boring as hell in DSO and I doubt it will be different in Rebirth. Not to mention this goes against everything we are used to (well except Beyond the Frontier).
That seems a little like saying that fallout 3 is better than mass effect because in mass effect you can only play ONE character, whereas in fallout 3 you can play whatever character you want.

Despite the only actual difference between the two games in that respect being that in fallout everybody doesn't call you shepard.

Really speaking the only difference between ships in X3 are minor variations in speed and steering, what sort of guns you can put on it, and how big the various power supplies and cargo bays are. They are, essentially, the same ship with minor statistical variations. I don't honestly have any issue with the game recognising this and just giving you one cool ship and letting you pick the stats for it.

If I have one ship, but I can change how it handles and choose the guns on it, I essentially have the capacity to fly any ship short of an M2. Regardless if the game still calls it the same ship, that doesn't mean it functionally IS the same ship as far as flight mechanics are concerned.

It seems like the complaint is less 'I can only fly one ship' and more 'I can't fly the one ship I liked in X3'
You are wrong, because Mass Effect is not a continuation of Fallout and vice versa.

No, you do not have the capacity to fly any ship. When you a fighter you like, you tell yourself, wow a nice ship, I would like to try this one. But you CAN NOT.

Have you played DSO? In DSO you can also change weapons and make the ship a fast fighter or a heavy turreted frigate. Yet, is is only ONE ship and the game becomes really boring. If you have not played it, try it. And then come back to tell us, how you were able to fly any ship by flying just one...

Oh, silly me. I have never realized that M3 and M2 are the same, just with difference in speed, guns, turning and cargo. Why even today we have bombers, fighters and passenger planes right? It would be enough to build just one and fit it as required...
Last edited by plynak on Fri, 30. Sep 11, 14:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Chris0132
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Post by Chris0132 »

I said in the area of character customisation specifically, they're both RPGs, they both let you spec out different kinds of character, the only difference is that fallout presents is as 'you are creating this new person from scratch' and mass effect sets it out as 'you are picking the stats for this guy who already has a backstory and stuff'.

Which is exactly the point, what is the significant difference between going to a shipyard and paying a few million credits to make the invisible ship behind the camera work differently by buying a new one, and going to a shipyard and paying a few million credits to make the ship with the cool cockipit work differently by changing its loadout?

Except of course one ship has a cool cockpit.

Ships are interchangeable in X3, it's not like X3 presents you with all these amazing distinct and storied craft each of which is a unique character in and of itself, it presents you with a horde of mass produced statistic-sets which you pick one of and now your camera has different guns strapped to it.

Personally I rather like the idea that I'm flying one immersive ship rather than a series of cameras with different guns on them, I don't see any reason why it needs to impact the gamplay either, because as we've both said, it's pretty easy to make it so that you can spec it out to fit all sorts of different roles.

Plus if you just have the one ship you could have a bunch of new customisation options, like different paint jobs or the option of sticking a few custom parts on it for fun, stuff that would be pretty hard to do for a whole fleet but which you could spend a little while doing for just one ship.

I'd paint shark teeth on mine and then put a giant rear spoiler on it, because spoilers make things work better, even in space.
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Post by plynak »

Chris0132 wrote:I said in the area of character customisation specifically, they're both RPGs, they both let you spec out different kinds of character, the only difference is that fallout presents is as 'you are creating this new person from scratch' and mass effect sets it out as 'you are picking the stats for this guy who already has a backstory and stuff'.

Which is exactly the point, what is the significant difference between going to a shipyard and paying a few million credits to make the invisible ship behind the camera work differently by buying a new one, and going to a shipyard and paying a few million credits to make the ship with the cool cockipit work differently by changing its loadout?

Except of course one ship has a cool cockpit.

Ships are interchangeable in X3, it's not like X3 presents you with all these amazing distinct and storied craft each of which is a unique character in and of itself, it presents you with a horde of mass produced statistic-sets which you pick one of and now your camera has different guns strapped to it.

Personally I rather like the idea that I'm flying one immersive ship rather than a series of cameras with different guns on them, I don't see any reason why it needs to impact the gamplay either, because as we've both said, it's pretty easy to make it so that you can spec it out to fit all sorts of different roles.

Plus if you just have the one ship you could have a bunch of new customisation options, like different paint jobs or the option of sticking a few custom parts on it for fun, stuff that would be pretty hard to do for a whole fleet but which you could spend a little while doing for just one ship.
I can see that you do not own any X game. So please, if you like one ship so much, go get a game that has it. I do not want to see another great gaming series to be destroyed by another "innovative" and "new" features which are not innnovative nor new but will destroy the series. But I guess it is too late, Rebirth will be as thei said. Pity, will have to stick with Xtended MOD for a long time then.
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Chris0132
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Post by Chris0132 »

I own both X3s, they're fun games, not many games with that sort of scale and not many space games out there full stop.

I just genuinely don't see the difference between upgrading from an M4 to an M3 and then to an M6 and finally M7, or starting out in a flimsy, small M6 with terrible power and shield strength but good speed, and then steadily upping the weapon energy, shield generator, sticking heavier weapons on it, and upgrading the hull strength at the expense of increased mass and thus slower speed. Maybe stick a couple of turrets on it in the process. Maybe spec the weapons to be all missiles, all giant cannons, all anti-fighter weaponry, whatever you like.

Or even going the other way, making it faster still, giving it perfect handling, amazing acceleration, and overcharging the weapon energy so you can pack way more firepower onto it than you would normally get on a fighter, and then going after bigger ships by dodging everything in your super fast heavy fighter and blowing up subsystems one by one until the ship is crippled.

I'd be fine with the X3 approach of just telling you to pick from one of a huge number of predefined stat sets, but then they'd have to make a huge number of cockpits and interiors and stuff in order to keep immersion (and X is one of the few games where immersion can really improve the game) with the proposed system of just one ship.

Seems far more logical to just make the one ship customisable and give it a really nice interior, much less work, work that can be put into other parts of the game.
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Post by PTR »

You describe an upgrading mechanism giving you a super-ship, which I don't like. I like having ships with strong and weak points so I can pick the right ship for the right mission. Plus, upgrading your ship to a super-fighter is fine, but what if I want to fly a M2 type of ship?

It all depends on the implimentation of the one ship by the Egosoft dev's whether it will be brilliant or doomed to fail.
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Chris0132
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Post by Chris0132 »

PTR wrote:You describe an upgrading mechanism giving you a super-ship, which I don't like. I like having ships with strong and weak points so I can pick the right ship for the right mission. Plus, upgrading your ship to a super-fighter is fine, but what if I want to fly a M2 type of ship?

It all depends on the implimentation of the one ship by the Egosoft dev's whether it will be brilliant or doomed to fail.
Stick more turrets and armor on it, suddenly you're flying an M7, which is also a super ship in all respects except when compared with an M2, which is a super super ship.

Also yes, it is giving you a very powerful ship, but that's the point of an RPG, the player becomes much more powerful than most single enemies, the game counters this by throwing lots of enemies at the player. So a super fighter would have to fight lots of enemy fighters or big ships by targetting weak points, a super corvette would have to do the same, only differently, being less maneuverable but having more firepower and a few turrets, so it would focus on battering down shields more than the fighter, but still involve some good flying. A frigate-style ship would focus more on plotting out movement ahead of time as it can't accelerate too fast, but it carries heavy forward armament and quite a few turrets, which you might switch to to shoot down attacking fighters in between fighting bigger ships.

For every increase in player power you increase the challenge to match, which is only really possible if all builds are balanced, so it is somewhat neccesary to make fighters just as capable as frigates if you pour enough money into them. The player should always be better at the game than any given enemy he is supposed to fight, the challenge comes from fighting multiple enemies and relying on some form of player skill to succeed.

A good example is probably STALKER, if you ever played it, in that the player can easily wipe out huge numbers of enemies purely through planning, being a good shot, or having really good armor and gear. As a player you're no stronger than anyone else, if you run into a machinegun wearing a leather jacket you're going to die, but you have options. You can pick a very accurate gun and silence it, then shoot everyone in the head from a mile away. You can fight using cover so you don't get shot, and thereby beat similarly equipped foes with equal equipment, or you can spend your money on a giant robot suit and a machinegun full of armor piercing ammo, and just shoot everything while being really hard to kill, although it will cost a lot of money to do so. You win by investing effort either in thinking about how to win, by honing your combat skills, or by doing enough side missions and exploration to make a lot of money and buy yourself a really tough suit and gun. The game lets you play however you like, and you can accomplish anything with any build, as long as you're good at it, what you mostly buy is extra skill space, you buy the room to be skilled at the game. No amount of skill will make your early pistol good or your starting suit effective, but if you buy a sniper rifle, or a suit that lets you run faster, or a protective suit that lets you explore more, it allows you to get better at the game, and that's what I see ship upgrades as. More cargo space, more speed, more gun turrets, more armor, whichever you pick you're going to allow yourself to progress further down your chosen playstyle.

For chasing down enemy fighters I'd still pick a fighter myself, for general use I'd fly a corvette, and for anti-capship I'd still pick a frigate or super heavy corvette, but you should still be able to get things done regardless of what ship you fly, you can be better at some things without being utterly useless at others. Frigates can use drones and missles to hunt fighters, fighters can cripple capships by shooting out subsystems. Much better than M2 > everything which is what we have now.
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Wine and cheese

Post by Shootist »

There are a lot of posts in this thread that won't be complete without a side of Cheese.

Will that be Cheshire or Wensleydale to go with your wine?

Just to be clear.

First, ME is a FPS/RPG, it isn't a space game in the genre of X, and doesn't deserve much mention here. Second, I really hate the way Normandy (ME1 and 2) is designed. I loath the time spent (wasted) wandering about talking to one line NPCs. Having to do it more than once is truly cringe worthy and a poor game design.

I am thrilled that X:R is going to be a completely different game. Different ships. Different races. Different flight physics. Even the ONE SHIP is a welcome departure. The only qualms I have are the animated exterior bits; that they will cause FPS issues.

So, be of good cheer. Egosoft will deliver another 1500 hours of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder goodness.
Last edited by Shootist on Fri, 30. Sep 11, 15:38, edited 1 time in total.
DonBeech
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Post by DonBeech »

Chris0132 wrote:
Which is exactly the point, what is the significant difference between going to a shipyard and paying a few million credits to make the invisible ship behind the camera work differently by buying a new one, and going to a shipyard and paying a few million credits to make the ship with the cool cockipit work differently by changing its loadout?

Except of course one ship has a cool cockpit.

Ships are interchangeable in X3, it's not like X3 presents you with all these amazing distinct and storied craft each of which is a unique character in and of itself, it presents you with a horde of mass produced statistic-sets which you pick one of and now your camera has different guns strapped to it.

Personally I rather like the idea that I'm flying one immersive ship rather than a series of cameras with different guns on them, I don't see any reason why it needs to impact the gamplay either, because as we've both said, it's pretty easy to make it so that you can spec it out to fit all sorts of different roles.

Plus if you just have the one ship you could have a bunch of new customisation options, like different paint jobs or the option of sticking a few custom parts on it for fun, stuff that would be pretty hard to do for a whole fleet but which you could spend a little while doing for just one ship.

I'd paint shark teeth on mine and then put a giant rear spoiler on it, because spoilers make things work better, even in space.


Black & White this seems to be the more logical reasons behind the whole Drone / Virtual Reality thing, I was thinking its basically Egosoft's cop out way of not having to design Hundreds of different cockpits even though in my mind there is a few grey areas like capping, Boarding, How long can we actually spend controlling a ship with VR, Will there be a loss of immersion regarding ownership and the players empire, Can we also upgrade these drone ships, can the drone ships be any class?

Regardless we should wait until ES actually explain it in more detail before we dig and reserve a hole in the graveyard :)
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Andy Barrett
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Post by Andy Barrett »

I agree with Don, we will hopefully recieve more info soon. I loved controlling hundreds of ships in XTC, so I am a bit wary about XR. Egosoft is my last hope for great immersive space games and I have faith that they won't blow it.
I want my vast factory empire again and legions of ships (even if only drone controlled). Hopefully issue 45 will be out soon with more tantalizing tit-bits. :D
NEKO77025
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Post by NEKO77025 »

Shrex wrote:I don't understand people why doesn't want the gate system ... What do you want instead ? Sublight travel ? It will take hours ! Even with time compressor.

The only solution I see would be to adopt a system like we had in Independance War 2 (great game btw) :
- Light travel between systems in a galaxy + time compressor
- Lagrange gate between galaxies

Anyway, continue your very good job Egosoft !

Man you took the words out of my mouth.. Man IW2 was awsome .. and their map / travel system is still the best i haven seen.

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