Part three of Steam debate - split and archived.

[dougeye]

i notice this thread is just the same people on both sides sluggin it out still. although the rate at which to page count is increasign has slowed down just pointing it out

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

DRM is operating in a very similar way; first Steam has persuaded ES to not use the oposition, steam-free disks. Once ES is well truly dependant on their rental system, they can dictate to ES, their financial cut!
But there is nothing wrong with that NUCLEAR-SLUG? Thats just business!

Yes, 'persuaded' them by offering them a superior cut of their sales profits in addition to offering a bunch of other services that are valuable to a developer as part of the package. Real gun to the head kind of stuff there!

Egosoft retain ownership of their IP, Steam is just an outlet for it. There's nothing to prevent Egosoft going with any of the other digital retailers should they choose to do so be it Origin/GOG/whoever. Those others though don't offer at present the same level of service that Steam is offering which is why they've gone with Steam. That, as you correctly say, is just business!

The price for a digital distribution though, should be far less of course and that is where Steam (and other digital distributors) horribly fail. In fact games are on average 10€ more expansive as digital-only version through Steam than they are on the shelves. Maybe not in the rest of the world, but at least here in Germany, go figure ...

That's just an unfortunate side effect of our own consumer habits. Over the years we gamers have ably demonstrated to the gaming industry time and again that we're willing to pay x amount for a game, so that's become the defacto standard. Steam doesn't set prices, the publishers do. The fact that it might cost less to distribute digitally is no longer relevant. The industry charges what it does because the industry knows we're dumb enough to pay it.

Other independent developers offer DRM free and Steam-free versions of their games (e.g. Vessels by Strange Loop Games, a brilliant game by the way) over their own website, as well as a Steam version.

Looks interesting.. Cheers for the tip!

i notice this thread is just the same people on both sides sluggin it out still. although the rate at which to page count is increasign has slowed down just pointing it out

We'll make it to the 300!!!

[quase]

The price for a digital distribution though, should be far less of course and that is where Steam (and other digital distributors) horribly fail. In fact games are on average 10€ more expansive as digital-only version through Steam than they are on the shelves. Maybe not in the rest of the world, but at least here in Germany, go figure ...

That's just an unfortunate side effect of our own consumer habits. Over the years we gamers have ably demonstrated to the gaming industry time and again that we're willing to pay x amount for a game, so that's become the defacto standard. Steam doesn't set prices, the publishers do. The fact that it might cost less to distribute digitally is no longer relevant. The industry charges what it does because the industry knows we're dumb enough to pay it.

That does not explain why the retail version is still much cheaper than the digital one though. If they would have just taken the prices which we "were used to pay" why did they charge more?
I tell you why, because they can and because they have created an artificial monopoly on the digital distribution. Retail copies are in competition to other retail stores, so the publisher may suggest a price, but the retailer is free to set it otherwise to gain an advantage over another competitor. Bad luck for us that the publisher is dictating the price on Steam one might say.

Other independent developers offer DRM free and Steam-free versions of their games (e.g. Vessels by Strange Loop Games, a brilliant game by the way) over their own website, as well as a Steam version.

Looks interesting.. Cheers for the tip!

No problemo, but get the game directly from the developer. They give you a Steam key on top for free either. We do not want to have Steam take away their cut from the hardworking devs, do we?

Also you (not sure if you Slug, more the general "you" as for Steam supporters) keep on telling that a game has a lot of free advertising on Steam and gets attention by showing it on the front page. Vessels was on the front page (maybe it still is) and was on Steam sale even on its release, still you have missed it. Could happen of course, but that only shows that the general attention of a game by simply putting it on Steam is a bit overrated.
By the way, have you heard about the game Stacking? Also a fantastic game. Was also on sale on its release, but got totally under the wheels in the latest publisher mass sale out which happened just the same time as the game was released.
Or finally and just because of a major free update for the game today and because it is recently on sale too. Space Pirates and Zombies is a brilliant independent game. Some kind of Freelancer in 2D, not an X game of course because of the missing economy, but certainly a gem for fans of classic top down shooters.

What you saw here is the best, cheapest and in our modern day probably also the most effective kind of advertising. I certainly won't do this for Rebirth though.

[quase]

Doesn't it speak for EG to offer a non-Steam executable once you have registered your game ?

Sure not bad, but actually not enough. I can never install the game without Steam and that is one important point. If it is not about copy protection, put the Steam free executable on the DVD and I am fine with it.

[Edit] Where is the post I quoted gone to? Moderators? Aliens? ... or even evaporated into the Steam-cloud? The truth is out there!
<Not me, maybe Ravna changed his mind. Alan Phipps>

[DJC]

PLEASE tell me that this new game will not require Steam! I like hard copies. Yes I have a steam account so I can't say I won't buy it if it requires steam. I really, and I use this word for its true meaning, HATE steam since the begining of steam(Half-Life2) it has been nothing but problems for me. I never even finished the game for the disaster that steam was. I deleated everything and forgot about it. It was not until 9 months ago when I realised that Steam and platforms like it were the only way I was going to play games on a pc any more. So I reopened an account. I still HATE Steam although they are better then in the begining. Steam would be a great disapointment for me, and I urge the developers to stay away from it. However I am a big fan of the X series and will most likley buy it. I will also say that I want a disk, not a download and that could sway me to not buy the game.

[Slashman]

PLEASE tell me that this new game will not require Steam! I like hard copies. Yes I have a steam account so I can't say I won't buy it if it requires steam. I really, and I use this word for its true meaning, HATE steam since the begining of steam(Half-Life2) it has been nothing but problems for me. I never even finished the game for the disaster that steam was. I deleated everything and forgot about it. It was not until 9 months ago when I realised that Steam and platforms like it were the only way I was going to play games on a pc any more. So I reopened an account. I still HATE Steam although they are better then in the begining. Steam would be a great disapointment for me, and I urge the developers to stay away from it. However I am a big fan of the X series and will most likley buy it. I will also say that I want a disk, not a download and that could sway me to not buy the game.

There will be a disk. It will still require Steam activation though. At least that's the last word we have from Egosoft.

That's how I got the Orange Box. I got the disk from a friend as a gift and installed it, then activated it via Steam.

[the old one]

Hi ,slashman glad you have not forgotten me and my wild posts so i will add another one for you . If steam according to many posters is great and good why are there pages and pages of work arounds and people loseing there saved games,or maybe as been stated it is the fault of the gamers pc and not steam. Personaly i have a good pc and fast broadband but i just do not like it and do not want the pox on my machine,the old one

[THE_TrashMan]

What's with all the Steam hate? Works fine for me. Never had problems.

[David Howland]

Hi THE_TrashMan,
I refer you to my post at the bottom of page 92!

[strude]

Hi ,slashman glad you have not forgotten me and my wild posts so i will add another one for you . If steam according to many posters is great and good why are there pages and pages of work arounds and people loseing there saved games,or maybe as been stated it is the fault of the gamers pc and not steam. Personaly i have a good pc and fast broadband but i just do not like it and do not want the pox on my machine,the old one

How could anyone forget all those poked out tongues and twisted smilies?

What you're missing though is that the work arounds are mostly provided to assist people in putting up with Steam enough to use it. When running in it's usual configuration, that is, always online, almost no work arounds are required. There have been some people posting methods to force Steam to install from a DVD when it won't, but that issue is not the norm for most users. The work arounds are generally to get Steam working in a way that it isn't designed to work, to try and satisfy those who object to certain aspects of Steam's operation.

[rusky]

I am really happy it is coming out on Steam, as it is my preferred gaming platform anyway.
I've been using Steam for over 5 years with almost no issues, and as a user with a broadband, unlimited traffic connection and an SSD drive for my steam library, i really enjoy being able to quickly download and install any game from my considerable (over 120 titles) library.
I also have no problem modding steam games ( I have 2 separate AP folders for example for vanilla/XRM and can switch whenever i need to with no problems).

I can see how auto updates could mess with this, but they can be disabled, so the only issue could be trying to play mods for a specific version, but perhaps steam could offer the possibility to install a certain version of a game in the future as well.

When I look at steam I don't see a horrible, intrusive DRM; instead, I see a digital game shop/social gaming network rolled into one, that allows me to keep large amounts of games available regardless of location or computer, and keep in touch with, and play with various people I have grown to call my friends over the years.
And I do not lie when I say it is largely thanks to Steam allowing us to keep in touch even after we stopped playing whatever game we met in.

So yeah, I would be happy to get XRebirth with Steamworks

[Slashman]

Hi ,slashman glad you have not forgotten me and my wild posts so i will add another one for you . If steam according to many posters is great and good why are there pages and pages of work arounds and people loseing there saved games,or maybe as been stated it is the fault of the gamers pc and not steam. Personaly i have a good pc and fast broadband but i just do not like it and do not want the pox on my machine,the old one

I could never forget you. But you need to keep up or David will take the crown and rule the crazy conspiracy kingdom. Don't let that usurper take your rightful place!!!

I don't know why people have lost saved games. They aren't even stored in the Steam folder. I believe they are stored in My Documents in an Egosoft folder.

[THE_TrashMan]

There's always GamersGate. I use it a lot.

[David Howland]

Hi rusky,
I am so pleased that you have had such a lucky good five years of Steam service with ALMOST no issues. Count yourself very fortunate, many have not even got through their first 24 hours without ISSUES and indeed have given Steam up within a week! I'd be grateful if you could drop me some tips as I am considering putting Steam temporarily on an old redundant laptop to install AP.
Hi Slashman and the old one,
No I could never usurp, the old one. He is the true bastion of resistance, to him I give my fealty and gratitude for all that his posts have taught me. I try and keep my posts as concise and sharp as his but usually fail. Also as you read above, I am toying with playing with the pox on an old laptop, the old one would never do that, he keeps his operating systems pristine. Also he has been posting against steam longer than I, without getting banished, which my clumsiness led me into. So long may he lead where I will be content to follow!

[angrytigerp]

many have not even got through their first 24 hours without ISSUES and indeed have given Steam up within a week!

I liked the part where you provided a citation for your claim. The anecdotal evidence of you and 2 or 3 other people in this thread don't really fly with me, as I wouldn't call that "many" when there are 4.1 million users on Steam right now. 0.0000009% of 4.1 million people doesn't fit my definition of "many".

[David Howland]

Oh dear angrytigerp,
Yes but many are like X addicts, now unable to get their fix any other way!
Many drug addicts are prepared to face a future worse than death, do you wonder that game addicts will suffer the purgatory of DRM?
Boasting of the captive millions there, you remind me of Hitler boasting of the millions 'put to sleep', for the greater good?

[rusky]

Hi rusky,
I am so pleased that you have had such a lucky good five years of Steam service with ALMOST no issues. Count yourself very fortunate, many have not even got through their first 24 hours without ISSUES and indeed have given Steam up within a week! I'd be grateful if you could drop me some tips as I am considering putting Steam temporarily on an old redundant laptop to install AP.
Hi Slashman and the old one,
No I could never usurp, the old one. He is the true bastion of resistance, to him I give my fealty and gratitude for all that his posts have taught me. I try and keep my posts as concise and sharp as his but usually fail. Also as you read above, I am toying with playing with the pox on an old laptop, the old one would never do that, he keeps his operating systems pristine. Also he has been posting against steam longer than I, without getting banished, which my clumsiness led me into. So long may he lead where I will be content to follow!

Hi David,

No software or service is without issue naturally, but when I say "almost without issue" i mean to say that I've had less issues with steam over the
past 5 years than I've had with Windows.

I wouldn't count myself lucky either, as I have yet to meet a single person that has had the considerable issues you and a few others have presented in these forums. I am not trying to imply you are lying, but simply that there may be a lack of luck on your side as opposed to an abundance on mine.

Finally, as far as advice goes, I simply do not know what to say, as I have never had to do anything out of the ordinary in order to keep Steam running, and any other issue specific games might have had with it was usually addressed by visiting various forums (usually the steam forums for the specific game or the official forums of the game).

I am genuinely sorry to hear you are experiencing such grave issues while using steam, but it would not be false to say that most people are not, and the service is enjoyed by many people across the world for what it offers.

[EmperorJon]

Oh dear angrytigerp,
Yes but many are like X addicts, now unable to get their fix any other way!
Many drug addicts are prepared to face a future worse than death, do you wonder that game addicts will suffer the purgatory of DRM?
Boasting of the captive millions there, you remind me of Hitler boasting of the millions 'put to sleep', for the greater good?

I know exactly what you mean. I would never ever consider buying a game if it was not on Steam!

/sarcasm


You have just compared using Steam to an act of genocide. Well done. Now everyone's going to take you seriously.

[Tycow]

You have just compared using Steam to an act of genocide. Well done. Now everyone's going to take you seriously.

Second time he's done it now. :/

[Alan Phipps]

This is not the first time that David has done so and nor is he the only person to have done so in these Steam threads. It is quite a common phenomena when a logical argument is running out of fresh input or objectivity - Google for 'Godwin's Law' to see what I mean.

However, in the interests of not offending anyone unnecessarily, please desist from such parallels or commenting upon such comments. Thank you.