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A5PECT
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Post by A5PECT »

Burneyx wrote:ok, install want to have the Steam client first, done and worked.....
Now, next was the activation key, to bad that this key was already used by another player.....so Steam didnt activate the game for me and didnt install only one bite for my money.
"I used Steam and someone stole my CD key" isn't an argument against Steam. It's an argument against CD keys. :roll:
I had to scan the key with the bill and send it to the Steam Customer Service, but this Steam server was down........

So after 2 hours with no byte of the game i already paid for on my harddrive, i decided to delete Steam, giving the game back to the media market in exchange for my money.......
I'm sorry, but any support group will be hit with down time at some point. It's pretty unfortunate that your problem arose while the support site was out of order, but as I said before, if someone stole your CD key for a non-Steam game and the company's support was unavailable then you'd have been in the same situation.

You really couldn't be arsed to wait a day to see if the Steam support page went back online, and return the game if it didn't?

Apologies if you legitimately couldn't.
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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice »

KloHunt3r wrote:
Burneyx wrote:ok, install want to have the Steam client first, done and worked.....
Now, next was the activation key, to bad that this key was already used by another player.....so Steam didnt activate the game for me and didnt install only one bite for my money.
"I used Steam and someone stole my CD key" isn't an argument against Steam. It's an argument against CD keys.
On the contrary, it is a problem with steam.

My local games store has a policy of returning any game within a week if your not happy with it.

That means that every single return has had the cd-key used.

That IS steams problem [edit] when they demand steam activation to start the game.

They may want total domination and only digital download, but it isnt reality yet, as long as stores still carry disks in boxes.

That means they MUST cope with stores returns policies.

Edit2 : In fact, I think you will find its illegal in Australia for a software disk to be sold where a product returned in a resalable state cannot then be used for its said purpose. For the game to not be activatable on resale of otherwise perfectly saleable stock, would be illegal here. It would be a breach of warranty, and the publisher would be in huge doodoo. In fact, the publisher would be liable to refund the stores for every copy returned, or replace them with new copies.
Last edited by apricotslice on Thu, 27. Oct 11, 14:40, edited 1 time in total.
strude
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Post by strude »

apricotslice wrote:
KloHunt3r wrote:
Burneyx wrote:ok, install want to have the Steam client first, done and worked.....
Now, next was the activation key, to bad that this key was already used by another player.....so Steam didnt activate the game for me and didnt install only one bite for my money.
"I used Steam and someone stole my CD key" isn't an argument against Steam. It's an argument against CD keys.
On the contrary, it is a problem with steam.

My local games store has a policy of returning any game within a week if your not happy with it.

That means that every single return has had the cd-key used.

That IS steams problem.
That's the retailers problem. If they want to return games after the CD key is used, that's their business. If they want to resell that game, knowing full well that it's unusable, then they are at fault. If it was a problem with Steam it would only affect Steam titles. This issue will affect any title that uses an online check with a CD key for authentication.

EDIT: As an example, consider the Band Hero games on the PS3 (or any console for that matter). Those games come with a CD key, that allows a user to export the tracks into a compatible title. If someone buys the games, exports the tracks using the one use cd key, and returns the game, you'll have the same problem, and Steam isn't even available on consoles.
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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice »

strude wrote:That's the retailers problem. If they want to return games after the CD key is used, that's their business. If they want to resell that game, knowing full well that it's unusable, then they are at fault. If it was a problem with Steam it would only affect Steam titles. This issue will affect any title that uses an online check with a CD key for authentication.
No its not. See my edit above.

Edit : Added here :

Edit2 : In fact, I think you will find its illegal in Australia for a software disk to be sold where a product returned in a resalable state cannot then be used for its said purpose. For the game to not be activatable on resale of otherwise perfectly saleable stock, would be illegal here. It would be a breach of warranty, and the publisher would be in huge doodoo. In fact, the publisher would be liable to refund the stores for every copy returned, or replace them with new copies.

Edit : And maybe that IS why some places in the world no longer have box sales.
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Post by strude »

apricotslice wrote:Edit2 : In fact, I think you will find its illegal in Australia for a software disk to be sold where a product returned in a resalable state cannot then be used for its said purpose. For the game to not be activatable on resale of otherwise perfectly saleable stock, would be illegal here. It would be a breach of warranty, and the publisher would be in huge doodoo. In fact, the publisher would be liable to refund the stores for every copy returned, or replace them with new copies.
Wow, this being the case, I'm surprised no lawyers have made their careers out of this case yet. :roll: I think it's fair to say that if it was illegal, someone would have done something by now. I doubt this thread is the first time anyone has ever bought this up.

BTW if you're talking about EB Games, they specifically told me the last time I purchased a Steam title I could not return it once it was activated, despite their return for any reason policy. Maybe we have good staff at our store.

EDIT: Was responding to your edit while you were responding to my post and making an edit. :oops: I also added an edit of an edit with an example in my post while you were making the first response to my post saying to look at your edit, that I was already responding to while you added the copy of your edit in and edit to the post I was responding to... or something like that :twisted:
Last edited by strude on Thu, 27. Oct 11, 14:48, edited 1 time in total.
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X2-Illuminatus
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Post by X2-Illuminatus »

apricotslice wrote:
Ketraar wrote:...its NOT TRUE for XR, this was made clear about 80 pages ago (more or less).
Better find the quote then, because my recollection was that Bernd left it as clear as mud.

A lot of the uncertainty is because Egosoft has not made it definite exactly how much steam interaction is needed to run the game. So far there has only been assumption based on "steamworks" being mentioned.

A definitive statement from Egosoft would go a long way to clearing things up.
For reference:
In [url=http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=3704536&highlight=#3704536]this[/url] post Bernd wrote:You should be able to play offline. You only need to be go online once for activation. If this did not always work it may be because some things were simply wrong. Again: Only having to support one version will help us make sure things like this dont happen in the future.
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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice »

Yes, I was thinking of EB Games.

Thats interesting, as they dont advertise this. I may ask next time I'm in there. Because if thats the case, then clearly their advertising needs to be changed.

I'm trying to edit to avoid double posting. Never can tell if the next post will follow someone or double post, so editing to make sure I dont upset the mods with double posts. :)
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the old one
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Post by the old one »

Strude,yes i will buy a non steam version of rebirth with all its bugs,but from your comments you will not buy a buggy game,the old one :o :o :o
only steam i want is out of a kettle
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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice »

X2-Illuminatus wrote:For reference:
In [url=http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=3704536&highlight=#3704536]this[/url] post Bernd wrote:You should be able to play offline. You only need to be go online once for activation. If this did not always work it may be because some things were simply wrong. Again: Only having to support one version will help us make sure things like this dont happen in the future.
And that has been definitively proved wrong in the context of "steamworks".

Thats why we need Bernd to come out with something explicit. His various comments to date seem to contradict each other.
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Choublanc
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Post by Choublanc »

Burneyx wrote:...But the most important point for me against Steam are the customer rights.
I want to be able to give back games that dont work (with my money back).
I want to be able to sell used games (even if i have never done it in over 20 years, but i have the choice to do so)
I want to be able to give games for birthday or other presents whenever im inthe mood to do so!
My rights are protected by german law and i have no need to search for any excuse in this case :wink:

Steam isnt able to accept these rights, so it isnt on me to change the case......
Exactly!
In many ways, Steam is violating the European laws (tie in sales, for instance, and maybe others).
I would be curious to know if they have already been brought before a European court for that.
btw, this is an idea, just for fun some of us could maybe register a complaint! (Just joking. Or not?)
Steam = Game over
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Post by strude »

apricotslice wrote:Yes, I was thinking of EB Games.

Thats interesting, as they dont advertise this. I may ask next time I'm in there. Because if thats the case, then clearly their advertising needs to be changed.

I'm trying to edit to avoid double posting. Never can tell if the next post will follow someone or double post, so editing to make sure I dont upset the mods with double posts. :)
In saying that I haven't actually bought a boxed Steamworks title since Half Life 2, many years ago. Steam was pretty new then and I guess all the staff were probably given the "directive from the man" about it. It's likely the intensity has died off as Steam has become more mainstream. It would have saved quite a lot of discussion on the Civ5 forums if purchases had been directed to the Steam requirement before they purchased the game.
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strude
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Post by strude »

Choublanc wrote:
Burneyx wrote:...But the most important point for me against Steam are the customer rights.
I want to be able to give back games that dont work (with my money back).
I want to be able to sell used games (even if i have never done it in over 20 years, but i have the choice to do so)
I want to be able to give games for birthday or other presents whenever im inthe mood to do so!
My rights are protected by german law and i have no need to search for any excuse in this case :wink:

Steam isnt able to accept these rights, so it isnt on me to change the case......
Exactly!
In many ways, Steam is violating the European laws (tie in sales, for instance, and maybe others).
I would be curious to know if they have already been brought before a European court for that.
btw, this is an idea, just for fun some of us could maybe register a complaint! (Just joking. Or not?)
As I said above, this isn't the first time any of these points has been bought up in a games forum. If there was some way for a lawyer to make their career out of this, they would have jumped at it
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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice »

strude wrote:In saying that I haven't actually bought a boxed Steamworks title since Half Life 2, many years ago. Steam was pretty new then and I guess all the staff were probably given the "directive from the man" about it. It's likely the intensity has died off as Steam has become more mainstream. It would have saved quite a lot of discussion on the Civ5 forums if purchases had been directed to the Steam requirement before they purchased the game.
It almost sounds like EBG need to consider separating the PC games area into Steam and Non-steam, or once only online activation and all-else. I might suggest that to them.

If its this big a minefield, I want to see it very easily as to if their return policy applies or not.

This just gets worse and worse.

Its not often I've returned a game, but there have been several that just wouldnt load on my hardware at the time, and returning them was necessary because I couldnt afford to lose the money on something I couldnt play. That policy did actually build customer loyalty, at least for me.

If steam has in fact done away with that sort of store loyalty program, then they in fact have a lot to answer for. And my opinion of them just went down another notch.
Burneyx
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Post by Burneyx »

KloHunt3r wrote:
Burneyx wrote:ok, install want to have the Steam client first, done and worked.....
Now, next was the activation key, to bad that this key was already used by another player.....so Steam didnt activate the game for me and didnt install only one bite for my money.
"I used Steam and someone stole my CD key" isn't an argument against Steam. It's an argument against CD keys. :roll:
I had to scan the key with the bill and send it to the Steam Customer Service, but this Steam server was down........

So after 2 hours with no byte of the game i already paid for on my harddrive, i decided to delete Steam, giving the game back to the media market in exchange for my money.......
I'm sorry, but any support group will be hit with down time at some point. It's pretty unfortunate that your problem arose while the support site was out of order, but as I said before, if someone stole your CD key for a non-Steam game and the company's support was unavailable then you'd have been in the same situation.

You really couldn't be arsed to wait a day to see if the Steam support page went back online, and return the game if it didn't?

Apologies if you legitimately couldn't.
First, if i buy a closed box (original seals) witch was never opened then from my point of view Steam is responsible for the security of the activation key included.....The key wasnt stolen from me, it was stolen from Steam, because i never had the chance to use it......

And for support site down, im not responsible too, its Steams server......

If i pay for a game i want to play it, not to wait hours/days for any servers coming up or any customer service want to help or not.

If the install fails, like in my case, the game simply dont work and i get my money back, thats how things work here......

And for some tips to keep steam accs secure i found this:

http://pressxordie.com/2011/06/22/bewar ... -phishing/

With an normal DVD with DRM you will never have such problems....

greetings

burneyx
***modified***
strude
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Post by strude »

apricotslice wrote:If steam has in fact done away with that sort of store loyalty program, then they in fact have a lot to answer for. And my opinion of them just went down another notch.
Not sure if you saw my edit to my post earlier during the edit-posting blitz we had :D , so I'll put it here again
strude wrote:As an example, consider the Band Hero games on the PS3 (or any console for that matter). Those games come with a CD key, that allows a user to export the tracks into a compatible title. If someone buys the games, exports the tracks using the one use cd key, and returns the game, you'll have the same problem, and Steam isn't even available on consoles.
It's not Steam that has done this, it's online CD key verification of any form. If the game has a on time use key for whatever reason, it's going to have this problem, with or without Steam.
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Post by Scott C. »

Never used/going to use Steam, though I'm sure it's great. Voted 3 minus the dramatic "if yahda yahda."

Be a shame to miss Rebirth 'cause it looks pretty cool, but it'll do fine without me.... Considering there are more awesome games than I could ever hope to play that don't require of me more than my money, and some anti-piracy ish, I'm certain I'll do fine too.

G'luck with the release, regardless.
Cheers,
Scott
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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice »

strude wrote:
strude wrote:As an example, consider the Band Hero games on the PS3 (or any console for that matter). Those games come with a CD key, that allows a user to export the tracks into a compatible title. If someone buys the games, exports the tracks using the one use cd key, and returns the game, you'll have the same problem, and Steam isn't even available on consoles.
It's not Steam that has done this, it's online CD key verification of any form. If the game has a on time use key for whatever reason, it's going to have this problem, with or without Steam.
No, I didnt see that. Problem is worse than I thought then.

Maybe its is indeed Game Over for the PC Game. I am not and never have been interested in consoles of any kind, so have no plans to go there for games. If PC games become unobtainable because they are all cd-key or digital download, then thats THE END.
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Post by exogenesis »

Even with Ketraar & others trying to push the pro-steam 'no problems' lobby forward,
I've got to say with all the uncertainty and definate obvious problems/inflexibility/invasiveness
of a full-steam game, that I've certainly swayed over to apricotslice's (& others') point of view.

I salute all those who stuck to raising the real issues against (a probable) majority
of people who accept steam because 'thats the way its done now',
regardless of how well they think it's worked (or not) up to now for them.
Not to mention the 'hard' problems some would face with poor connectivity etc.

Until there's a certainty of a non-steam issue of Rebirth,
(presumably if this happened there'd be a mention in an ES newsletter)
I don't want to shuttle back & forth between "will I, won't I" depending on
some unknown decision about the level of steam incorporation into Rebirth.

So saying cheerio folks, I really hope that's just for now.
Keep up the superb work ES :thumb_up: , it's been a really involving & fun ride,
& thanks for all the fish.

DaveT - see ya'all, possibly
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Post by strude »

apricotslice wrote:... Problem is worse than I thought then.

Maybe its is indeed Game Over for the PC Game. I am not and never have been interested in consoles of any kind, so have no plans to go there for games. If PC games become unobtainable because they are all cd-key or digital download, then thats THE END.
Might be even worse than that. Some people do make noise about playing consoles to avoid systems like Steam, however, Xbox Live and Playstation Network are both in a position to implement a Steam style "user account to game" linking if they desired. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the next gen consoles, or increasing numbers of games for those consoles, required an internet connection.

Note though: The example I provided doesn't require the cd key to play the games in any way. The cd key is only required to enable the "song export" feature, which is not required at all to play the games. Won't make any difference to you, but just wanted to clear that up.
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A5PECT
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Post by A5PECT »

Xbox Live already has such a system.

If a user makes a digital purchase on another person's console, his account will be banned for "theft" because he's technically placing the usage license on a machine other than his own.

Also, someone unknowingly bought a machine that was banned from Xbox Live thanks to its previous user. He can't get the ban lifted, and he can't return the console.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.

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