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Asmodae
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Post by Asmodae »

NUKLEAR-SLUG wrote: ... Skynet style.
HA! That would be a reason TO use steam. :P
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Post by strude »

pissmaker wrote:Also the least amount of memory steam needs is ~100mb and only when started offline in tray.
Huh? The least? Mine is currently using less than 14mb, started with Windows. It generally goes to about 55mb while I'm using the client, and I have seen it go to 110mb or even 150mb at times. Never really paid attention to it before. Actually I only bother to look at all when it gets mentioned in this thread :D Even at 150mb, it's should never be anything to get concerned about.
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Post by Mightysword »

if it just sit there quietly on your task bar it should take very little MB. I think the people who report high in-activity memory actually have it open on the desktop. I just bought a game and here were how it flows:

- Windows starts: ~6mb
- Bought a game: ~100mb
- minimize the client: ~10-12mb
- If I bring the screen back up again: ~40mb
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the old one
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steam

Post by the old one »

It amazes me how people have double standards,for example,if they were to buy a television and it had some niggling faults they would be back to the shop playing merry hell about the piece of cr*p they had just bought.Now to steam,according to many posts there are more than a few niggling faults yet they are quite prepared to except them,it really amazes me, it is like saying when is my turn in the barrel so you can ***** me some more.As you can see i am not steam conpatable,but would pay more for a non steam version from egosoft,the old one :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
only steam i want is out of a kettle
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Re: steam

Post by apricotslice »

the old one wrote:It amazes me how people have double standards,for example,if they were to buy a television and it had some niggling faults they would be back to the shop playing merry hell about the piece of cr*p they had just bought.Now to steam,according to many posts there are more than a few niggling faults yet they are quite prepared to except them,it really amazes me, it is like saying when is my turn in the barrel so you can ***** me some more.As you can see i am not steam conpatable,but would pay more for a non steam version from egosoft,the old one
Taken a step further, when a product has a reputation for causing problems, you just dont buy it. You spend your money on something else.

And it doesnt really matter how many people think the product is great, everyone has a line, after which they say, I wont buy that product because its reputation is bad. The position of the line varies by 100%, so its an individual choice.

For The Old One and me, and others, Steam is over that line and firmly in the "bad reputation" area.

And I hate to say it, but Egosoft probably is for a lot of people as well. Wasnt it X3 that was unplayable out of the box ? Wasnt it X3 that got returned to so many stores that they stopped stocking it ? And a lot of people probably didnt buy TC because the release of X3 was botched so bad. Its part of reputation. And Egosoft had a bad one at one stage.

And on that theme, bringing out a bugged game, and following it with a gigantic bug fix patch, is not my idea of good business. And Steam making this more automatic, is not my idea of a solution. The problem is games being released with too many bugs. Making the patch automatically downloaded is not a solution, its a bandaid. The internet just makes releasing buggy games fixable, it doesnt make it ethically right. So steam makes this process more automatic, and ensures that everyone is updated - thats not a solution, thats someone making a profit out of bad business practices.
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Post by EmperorJon »

@the old one, people don't have double standards as far as I can see. I don't use Steam because the niggling faults are little and I'm happy to ignore them, whereas I'd take back say, the TV from your analogy, I use Steam because I don't have these niggling faults. Never had a problem with it. Some people have problems, some don't, so some use and some don't.

@apricotslice, No personal offence intended and I respect your opinion, but...
Lots of us have already said nobody's going to change their mind. I don't think anyone will or has from this thread. But I find it a little odd that you insist on repeatedly posting, over and over again, trying to convince... somebody that Steam is WRONG. We know you don't like it... I mean, now the rage is redirected at Egosoft, at digital distribution in general as an excuse for releasing bad games, at X3R and X3TC as bugged games from the start, etc. etc... do you think you could tone it down a bit? Once again, if this offends you in any way, I'll I dunno, delete the post or something. Anyway.
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Ketraar
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Re: steam

Post by Ketraar »

apricotslice wrote:Taken a step further, when a product has a reputation for causing problems, you just dont buy it. You spend your money on something else.
Problem is, and here is where you miss the point, Steam has not a bad reputation and it has not faults, from where I stand. Rumours and general fuss created by a few that try to give impression all is how they say it is. Its not! No matter how much you try you will not find an excuse not to use Steam other than that you can (exception to those that have no Internet access at all).

MFG

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edammer
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Post by edammer »

Also steam is free, most people would accept free stuff even if it's known to be crappy.

BTW, I use steam for all my games now and have not had any issues.
I do get the brief message about the screenshot manager when shutting down but I can't see that as a problem (Win7 64).
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EmperorJon
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Post by EmperorJon »

@Ketraar, it's interesting that he said "if it's got a bad reputation, don't buy it."

Which means that you'll never actually know... ;)
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Ketraar
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Post by Ketraar »

Sure you do, IF you are wiling to actually "listen" to people here or otherwise, you realise that most people don't have issues with Steam other than personal feelings. There are NO technical issues with Steam, it works, so the comparison with a broken TV is way off. ;-)

Personal feelings towards anything are allowed, as everyone should make up their own mind, but what strikes me is that people will try to find excuses to justify their actions and sometimes make up ones given lack of real excuses. If you don't like it don't use it, that's excuse enough, but misinforming others is not the right thing to do.

MFG

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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice »

edammer wrote:Also steam is free
No its not. Its built into the cost of the games you buy that require it. The more games you buy, the more it actually costs you.

The thing that gives the illusion of being free, is that the price charged isnt any more than it was before steam came along. And as plenty of people have pointed out, steam is NOT cheaper, except when they put something on sale, and even then, thats the same as stores do with old stock.
Ketraar wrote:Problem is, and here is where you miss the point, Steam has not a bad reputation and it has not faults, from where I stand.
Thats what I mean. The line is 100% wide. I've found steam more and more alarming as this thread has gone along, in spite of the people with no problems with it. In retail when I was in it, 3% failure rate was acceptable, anything more wasnt. I rate things like steam much the same way. More than 3% of the people I know talking about who have problems, and I tag it with a big "be wary of it" flag. So maybe I'm being paranoid. But I'd rather be wrong my way than yours.
EmperorJon wrote:@apricotslice, No personal offence intended and I respect your opinion, but...
Lots of us have already said nobody's going to change their mind. I don't think anyone will or has from this thread. But I find it a little odd that you insist on repeatedly posting, over and over again, trying to convince... somebody that Steam is WRONG.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm enjoying a good discussion and putting in my 5c every now and then.
We know you don't like it... I mean, now the rage is redirected at Egosoft, at digital distribution in general as an excuse for releasing bad games, at X3R and X3TC as bugged games from the start, etc. etc... do you think you could tone it down a bit? Once again, if this offends you in any way, I'll I dunno, delete the post or something. Anyway.
No rage here. I'm the iceberg that sank the titanic.

X3R WAS a bugged game. I litterally had to sign a guarentee that I wouldnt bring it back before my store would get me a copy out of the back room for me to buy. Only reason I did that was because I knew the patches already released had solved the box versions issues.

But thats my point. Games used to be released ready to play, and they never had patches. You installed off the disk, and played straight away. Then after the internet came along it suddenly became ok to release a bug filled game because there was a way of getting a fix for it.

Steam is just the next generation of that mentality. And it doesnt bode well that Egosoft consider it necessary that people be on the latest patch all the time. Or that the masses need to be auto-patched in order to cut down on tech support.
do you think you could tone it down a bit?
Errr, tone what down ? I've been critical of Egosoft and their bug issues for donkeys years, I'm not about to stop now, just because forced-auto-updating is the next best thing since sliced bread for them. I was the one spearheading the bug fixes for X3, and while not all issues were addressed, we did make a lot of noise at the time and got a lot of successful fixes put into X3 that flowed into TC and made it a less buggy game. So I'm not recorded as their number one fan as a result. I can live with that.

Oh, and btw, sometimes I play devil's advocate and forget to announce it, and sometimes I'm just taking the sublime to the rediculous because the situation seems to need it, and forget to put a smilie in. Your taking me seriously ? Theres a first. :D
Once again, if this offends you in any way, I'll I dunno, delete the post or something.


You cant offend me.

If you do manage to, I will have identified an issue I need to work on. And thats a good thing, nothing to get upset about.

I dont expect people to agree with me. The fact that 214 currently do, and another 57 almost do, is absolutely amazing.
Ketraar wrote:Sure you do, IF you are wiling to actually "listen" to people here or otherwise, you realise that most people don't have issues with Steam other than personal feelings. There are NO technical issues with Steam, it works, so the comparison with a broken TV is way off.
Well it depends on your definition of "broken". By mine, within the concept of stand alone gaming, it is. But let me define that a little better. Its not so much Steam thats broken, its that XR in needing steam is broken. I wont be buying XR with steam in it.
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Post by Ketraar »

Just to clarify you can download steam, install a whole bunch of games (demos, some free others free to play) and never spend 1 Cent! So Steam IS free. :-P

MFG

Ketraar

PS.: I know how it is financed, but you get the point ;-)
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Burneyx
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Post by Burneyx »

Ketraar wrote:Sure you do, IF you are wiling to actually "listen" to people here or otherwise, you realise that most people don't have issues with Steam other than personal feelings. There are NO technical issues with Steam, it works, so the comparison with a broken TV is way off. ;-)

Personal feelings towards anything are allowed, as everyone should make up their own mind, but what strikes me is that people will try to find excuses to justify their actions and sometimes make up ones given lack of real excuses. If you don't like it don't use it, that's excuse enough, but misinforming others is not the right thing to do.

MFG

Ketraar
Well, for me it has nothing to do with personal feelings and i dont listen to others if i made a bad expirience myself......

For me my first real contact with Steam was in 08/2010.
After downloading and trying the demo of the game "Mount and Blade Warband" i wanted to buy the game.

I bought a retail DVD at our media market for 29,90 Euro and didnt even notice the very smal Steam thingy on it.......
To bad, at home i noticed it, but wanted to give it a try after so much Egosoft Fans are using it.

ok, install want to have the Steam client first, done and worked.....
Now, next was the activation key, to bad that this key was already used by another player.....so Steam didnt activate the game for me and didnt install only one bite for my money.

Ok, now what to do? Reading the FAQ for installing problems.
I had to scan the key with the bill and send it to the Steam Customer Service, but this Steam server was down........

So after 2 hours with no byte of the game i already paid for on my harddrive, i decided to delete Steam, giving the game back to the media market in exchange for my money.......
With the help of the CCleaner i have been able to realy remove Steam from my harddrive.

This are my personal memories about steam, witch are not good.....

But the most important point for me against Steam are the customer rights.
I want to be able to give back games that dont work (with my money back).
I want to be able to sell used games (even if i have never done it in over 20 years, but i have the choice to do so)
I want to be able to give games for birthday or other presents whenever im inthe mood to do so!
My rights are protected by german law and i have no need to search for any excuse in this case :wink:

Steam isnt able to accept these rights, so it isnt on me to change the case......

greetings

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Re: steam

Post by esd »

Ketraar wrote:(exception to those that have no Internet access at all).
How about those of us in "notspots", where our speeds are abysmal? I've already gone over the reasons why Steam isn't for me - and the clincher - that my connection could drop during the download of an update, rendering the game unplayable until my connection returns (the stickler, really - I could download a standalone patch just fine under such conditions, as an interrupted download won't prevent me from playing).
from where I stand.
The key point, I think :p
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Post by Ketraar »

1. I'm one of those with crappy connection, lots of disconnects and the occasional drop in speed, still use Steam and have no issues. I make use of my con at work to download stuff and backup-move it home. Apart from free or demos, I only own boxed DVD games, inkl. Steamworks games, so not often need to DL huge amount of data.

2. You don't need to be online ALL THE TIME, activation ONLY then you can play offline. Unlike other systems (like Ubisoft one) where you have to be permanently connected and when you're not you get booted, its NOT TRUE for XR, this was made clear about 80 pages ago (more or less).
esd wrote:
from where I stand.
The key point, I think :p
That was my point ;-)

MFG

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Post by apricotslice »

Ketraar wrote:...its NOT TRUE for XR, this was made clear about 80 pages ago (more or less).
Better find the quote then, because my recollection was that Bernd left it as clear as mud.

A lot of the uncertainty is because Egosoft has not made it definite exactly how much steam interaction is needed to run the game. So far there has only been assumption based on "steamworks" being mentioned.

A definitive statement from Egosoft would go a long way to clearing things up.
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Post by esd »

Ketraar wrote:1. I'm one of those with crappy connection, lots of disconnects and the occasional drop in speed, still use Steam and have no issues. I make use of my con at work to download stuff and backup-move it home. Apart from free or demos, I only own boxed DVD games, inkl. Steamworks games, so not often need to DL huge amount of data.
I didn't say "huge amount of data". It only has to be "a download" for what I describe to occur - especially when your connection drops out as much as mine!
2. You don't need to be online ALL THE TIME
I didn't say that, either.
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Post by the-danzorz »

apricotslice wrote:
Ketraar wrote:...its NOT TRUE for XR, this was made clear about 80 pages ago (more or less).
Better find the quote then, because my recollection was that Bernd left it as clear as mud.

A lot of the uncertainty is because Egosoft has not made it definite exactly how much steam interaction is needed to run the game. So far there has only been assumption based on "steamworks" being mentioned.

A definitive statement from Egosoft would go a long way to clearing things up.
The game isn't finished, so i don't think even they know what they plan to do with steam and what level they want to integrate it. Just like how mod-able the game will be etc, some things will require time to figure out.
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Re: steam

Post by strude »

the old one wrote:It amazes me how people have double standards,for example,if they were to buy a television and it had some niggling faults they would be back to the shop playing merry hell about the piece of cr*p they had just bought.Now to steam,according to many posts there are more than a few niggling faults yet they are quite prepared to except them,it really amazes me, it is like saying when is my turn in the barrel so you can ***** me some more.As you can see i am not steam conpatable,but would pay more for a non steam version from egosoft,the old one :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
I see. You won't use Steam (a free download) because it has niggling faults, but are prepared to pay more than retail for a game that will almost certainly have faults at release, as all software does. You're right, that is amazing!

Oh and you can now claim all you like that Egosoft always fix their games, but I don't think any of the previous titles could be called completely niggling fault free at the end of their support lifetime.
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Post by apricotslice »

the-danzorz wrote:The game isn't finished, so i don't think even they know what they plan to do with steam and what level they want to integrate it. Just like how mod-able the game will be etc, some things will require time to figure out.
Actually, its modability will have been worked out years ago, as what can be modded and how is built into the core of how the game is designed. What goes in the exe cant be modded. What goes in external files, should be modable. They have already said the compression and storage of external files has changed.

The only thing not complete yet would be releasable tools.

Bernd has said the magic word "steamworks". And was very surprised that some people objected to it. As such, its fair to assume that its a done deal. :( All we really want is for him to tell us one way or another for sure.

Edit :
strude wrote:I see. You won't use Steam (a free download) because it has niggling faults, but are prepared to pay more than retail for a game that will almost certainly have faults at release, as all software does. You're right, that is amazing!

Oh and you can now claim all you like that Egosoft always fix their games, but I don't think any of the previous titles could be called completely niggling fault free at the end of their support lifetime.
I too would pay a bit more for a steam free version. And I KNOW XR will be released buggy. No avoiding that. I know I will have to download a patch before I can play the game. But at least with a steam free version, I have complete control of that process.

No, none of the games from X2 on have ever been fully bug free, but at least they tried. TC might have lasted longer for me if the AutoPillok had been fixed, but alas, not to be, too hard without redesigning from scratch. But all it did was limit some of the strategy options.
Last edited by apricotslice on Thu, 27. Oct 11, 14:27, edited 1 time in total.

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