Egosoft had to release X4 unfinished?

[Alandauron]

"lost it's tolerance for your type of mindset but obviously you don't care and just want to complain" so in your opinion what is this?

I call that responding to someone that replied with a "Rolls Eyes" by understanding that they just want to complain. Nothing inherently wrong with that. He didn't care about the reasons I suggested why the fanbase is tolerant of Egosoft, he referred to it as "blah blah blah". So yes, I confirmed that I understood he just wanted to complain and didn't care about what I had to say to defend it. Not rude or belittling just a statement. I sometimes just want to complain to my wife about work because I think it has some poor policies, sometimes people just complain.

I exactly didnt register at X:R because it was such a mess here but the so called fanbase shown then too how apologetic it can be.

Personally I don't really care why you didn't register earlier but no the fanbase wasn't apologetic in regards to X:Rebirth. There was more hatred towards it than love for it at launch and still today. The people that were defending X:Rebirth were actually newer to the franchise and not long time fans because the fanbase didn't like being restricted to a single ship in the slightest. Even when I finally bought the game on sale the fanbase was continuing to talk about how they hated XR and that was when it was on sale for 50% off and had several mods that fixed many of the bigger complaints from long time fans.

now X4 looks better, actually there is a chance they will make it somewhat close to X3 level but that they have proven a good track? worse joke.

How so? Because they tried a different direction with XR?

XR is still a disaster as a game and even X3 has major flaws after those many years.

Have you played it lately? I'm willing to bet you haven't because no it's not still "crap" in regards to the amount of bugs and code-related issues. If you're referring to how it's not a "true" X game, I'll give you that but that doesn't mean that it's crap, you just didn't enjoy the style they chose to go with.

"Being apologetic is when they release crap and it remains crap but you try to justify it with, "Well game-development is hard."" nope, when they state "ohh nevermind it will be better later" already count as such. and we have all seen this. I thought there will be less conflicts this time but it seems that I was wrong. You still find your ways to try to send others away saying they are only here to "complain". Well, the game is currently completely unplayable unless you are prepared to run it yourself. the ai is a wreck, the pathing is even worse, these werent fixed since the first x. will it be a better game? hopefully yes. in 4-5 years. should we tell the casual newcomers to f**k off and wait that time? I dont think so... maybe put on the box: for die hard fans only! and have a second release a few years later. but IMO this kind of cheating people into buying a half-done game deserves all that it gets from the likes of Komuso.

If you think X3 and XR are so bad why would you bother to buy another game in the series? I believe they are great games, both of them, and even though they started out bug-riddled they have become polished gems.

Yes, they are here to complain. No, I'm not telling them to go away. Once again, everyone's opinion is valid and that also includes those that want to complain about something. On the other hand my opinion is also valid and when I see someone stating that Egosoft should go EA I feel it necessary to say "That's an absolutely TERRIBLE idea!" because it is. If you want to take to the forums and complain, feel free, but be ready for me to call out terrible ideas like that when and where I see them. Comments of "This shouldn't have been released yet" I normally just ignore but that's a completely different statement than "This should be EA".

[blackbow]

It's an early access indie game sold at AAA prices. I can't get a Steam refund as I'm in about 20 hours now.

Thats nonsense. File a refund request, point out to your issues and you will get a refund by Steam. Been there, done that. The 2hr-grace-period is just a "no questions asked refund guarantee. Broken products are still refunded by Steam. Just might take a bit more efford.

But its not what my post was about. Its more about trying to understand how Egosoft "might" operate.
Im still wondering if they might think "too conservative" to consider a proper Early Access run. On the other hand many customers showed them with Rebirth that they can even sell a completly broken product with huge success. Might have given them the wrong signal..

No, it's not. I tried at 15 hours - twice - and Steam refused both times stating "We are unable to refund this purchase to your PayPal at this time. Your playtime of an included product exceeds 2 hours (our refund policy maximum)."

If it was $20 I'd cut them some slack, but $75 is just ridiculous for the state this game is in.

So here's the good news.

When X:Afterbirth came out I ordered it and Steam let me download it and it was garbage. I said "steam I want my money back". They said "no." I said "fine" and filed with paypal for a refund since I used paypal to buy it. Paypal said "sure here you go". Steam BLEW UP. Emailed me. Called me names. Said "we're freezing your account until you resolve this matter". I said "um resolve what? I got my money back, bitches."

So, I will no longer support Steam. Irony, a few months later was when the "refund policy" was launched. But first for awhile they refused to take paypal any more IIRC.

So stop wasting time with Steam, and file with Paypal.

Enjoy

[blackbow]

if they'll polish it like x3tc then it would be best game in da world, so calm & wait some time.

I have no doubt that X4 will eventually be the bomb. But I would rather have had them invite people like Roguey et al, and maybe me and a few hundred other beta testers, and beta test the shit outta X4, and THEN release it. If you know who Roguey is you know he'll end up making it a better game overall anyway. If you know who Roguey is you know this game isn't as good as it could be, since he hasn't helped develop it.

And yes I suggested this to them while X4 was still officially in development. They ignored me.

Remember years ago when a game would "go gold" which means "beta tested, vast majority of bugs worked out, playtested, etc"?

That's what should have happened here. Do I respect the heck out of Egosoft patching this game after its release? I suppose, but then again, if you release it, and you charge for it, you're pretty much committed to fixing it.

Ironically, that's probably exactly what's happening with Star Citizen, and people are complaining about that, too.

[Requiemfang]

if they'll polish it like x3tc then it would be best game in da world, so calm & wait some time.

I have no doubt that X4 will eventually be the bomb. But I would rather have had them invite people like Roguey et al, and maybe me and a few hundred other beta testers, and beta test the shit outta X4, and THEN release it. If you know who Roguey is you know he'll end up making it a better game overall anyway. If you know who Roguey is you know this game isn't as good as it could be, since he hasn't helped develop it.

And yes I suggested this to them while X4 was still officially in development. They ignored me.

Remember years ago when a game would "go gold" which means "beta tested, vast majority of bugs worked out, playtested, etc"?

That's what should have happened here. Do I respect the heck out of Egosoft patching this game after its release? I suppose, but then again, if you release it, and you charge for it, you're pretty much committed to fixing it.

Ironically, that's probably exactly what's happening with Star Citizen, and people are complaining about that, too.

Guess now they are paying for it, and I know exactly who Roguey is, lot of veteran players of X-Series knows.

[shinzah]

Remember years ago when a game would "go gold" which means "beta tested, vast majority of bugs worked out, playtested, etc"?

I've been around for the launches of many space sims, and not a single one with great complexity had a great release. Even Elite II had some awful bugs, Elite III was a broken mess, BC 3000 AD was just downright awful. Reunion was released in a sorry state...In fact the only space sims that had decent launches were probably the casual ones like Rebel Galaxy and Starpoint Gemini. Even Freelancer needed patches to fix some nasty bugs.

So I don't really remember when SPACE SIMS had all this great releases when they went gold.

[jacozilla]

Remember years ago when a game would "go gold" which means "beta tested, vast majority of bugs worked out, playtested, etc"?

I've been around for the launches of many space sims, and not a single one with great complexity had a great release. Even Elite II had some awful bugs, Elite III was a broken mess, BC 3000 AD was just downright awful. Reunion was released in a sorry state...In fact the only space sims that had decent launches were probably the casual ones like Rebel Galaxy and Starpoint Gemini. Even Freelancer needed patches to fix some nasty bugs.

So I don't really remember when SPACE SIMS had all this great releases when they went gold.

Wing Commander series was great at each golden master. Especially when they added the chick I totally didn't recognize from porn films...nope...

[shinzah]

Remember years ago when a game would "go gold" which means "beta tested, vast majority of bugs worked out, playtested, etc"?

I've been around for the launches of many space sims, and not a single one with great complexity had a great release. Even Elite II had some awful bugs, Elite III was a broken mess, BC 3000 AD was just downright awful. Reunion was released in a sorry state...In fact the only space sims that had decent launches were probably the casual ones like Rebel Galaxy and Starpoint Gemini. Even Freelancer needed patches to fix some nasty bugs.

So I don't really remember when SPACE SIMS had all this great releases when they went gold.

Wing Commander series was great at each golden master. Especially when they added the chick I totally didn't recognize from porn films...nope...

I should clarify that I mean super complex excessive everything space sims. Wing Commander was okay and so was Xwing and Tie Fighter. ^^

[jacozilla]

I've been around for the launches of many space sims, and not a single one with great complexity had a great release. Even Elite II had some awful bugs, Elite III was a broken mess, BC 3000 AD was just downright awful. Reunion was released in a sorry state...In fact the only space sims that had decent launches were probably the casual ones like Rebel Galaxy and Starpoint Gemini. Even Freelancer needed patches to fix some nasty bugs.

So I don't really remember when SPACE SIMS had all this great releases when they went gold.

Wing Commander series was great at each golden master. Especially when they added the chick I totally didn't recognize from porn films...nope...

I should clarify that I mean super complex excessive everything space sims. Wing Commander was okay and so was Xwing and Tie Fighter. ^^

by modern standards, I get your point. But to be fair, when Wing Commander came out, it was pretty bleeding cutting edge for that era.

So by that era standards, those devs did cutting edge, complex releases that current era devs with similar cutting edge, complex standards don't seem to be able to do.

Personally, I think it's because the days of being able to control the entire source tree almost by yourself is over. Nowadays you check in your branch of the tree and just pray because a single coder doing a comprehensive review of the entire tree is pretty much not possible. When more fingers are in the pie, you get lower quality product but you can make lot bigger pies.

[xLunacy]

wall of text

"lost it's tolerance for your type of mindset but obviously you don't care and just want to complain" so in your opinion what is this? now im really off this stuff. I exactly didnt register at X:R because it was such a mess here but the so called fanbase shown then too how apologetic it can be. now X4 looks better, actually there is a chance they will make it somewhat close to X3 level but that they have proven a good track? worse joke. XR is still a disaster as a game and even X3 has major flaws after those many years.
"Being apologetic is when they release crap and it remains crap but you try to justify it with, "Well game-development is hard."" nope, when they state "ohh nevermind it will be better later" already count as such. and we have all seen this. I thought there will be less conflicts this time but it seems that I was wrong. You still find your ways to try to send others away saying they are only here to "complain". Well, the game is currently completely unplayable unless you are prepared to run it yourself. the ai is a wreck, the pathing is even worse, these werent fixed since the first x. will it be a better game? hopefully yes. in 4-5 years. should we tell the casual newcomers to f**k off and wait that time? I dont think so... maybe put on the box: for die hard fans only! and have a second release a few years later. but IMO this kind of cheating people into buying a half-done game deserves all that it gets from the likes of Komuso.

XR being a disaster? Hahaha, no. XR is a great game, that is not a true X game, you can easily get your fair share of enjoyment out of it today.
X3 has its flaws, like every game out there. If you're only focused on the bad, you'll never see the good.

You know, people like you are weird. I don't mean people with your mentality, but people that believe everything is black and white. It's not, and will never be. You can say it's black and say it should have been white, or vice versa, but all that you're doing is putting a label on something, nothing else. Read between the lines of what everyone here is saying, because you obviously think that X4 is black, should have been white and is not worth it as a game in its current state, thus ES are scamming/misleading people into buying their product. Well, I'll give you an exercise in establishing the grey area:

White:

• ES have a proven track record of supporting their games nearly a decade after release

• X3 and XR are extremely well polished gems today

• They care about their player base's opinion

• They are a small studio with big, big goals/dreams (I consider this a good thing)

• They have made an update to X4 nearly every day since it released

• They have given players feedback on their feedback

• X4 has had the most promising launch of all X games and has at least 40-50 hours of enjoyable content

Black:

• Game launched with some non game-breaking bugs

• Several races are missing

• Several key features didn't work at launch or still don't work

• Released without a manual

• Game costs 50$

• It could have been a much refined product overall

• Niche game that not everyone would enjoy

Now, for the exercise. Please tie both together for me and give an objective, factual and convincing representation, to a newcomer to the X games, of X4 and it's future. Imagine you're writing a steam review, if that would help you, but you have to use the items above.

[ALEX Bemelmans]

i don t matter if the game is unfinished at startup cause i know how egosoft's game works:

they always starts buggy and partially unfinished but become great games.
they always got tons of update for many years
they always are unlocked and very moddable and develloped in this way

i prefer 1000X this kind of way compared to big studios with they fully locked game contentless non modable without update and a non listening dev team
and i m not waiting for a console game.


and the "foundation" name is not here for nothing...
i m sure this one will become the best X ever...

[Arghan]

Heh... Every game will at some point bore player or irritate him so he stop playing. Even factorio or rimworld or minecraft.

Look at how many hours you played. $50 dolars/number of hours = decision if you were screwed or not.

For me this value is < dolar per hour and still going down. Totally worth it.

[Alandauron]

Heh... Every game will at some point bore player or irritate him so he stop playing. Even factorio or rimworld or minecraft.

Look at how many hours you played. $50 dolars/number of hours = decision if you were screwed or not.

For me this value is < dolar per hour and still going down. Totally worth it.

This is how I measure it as well. Currently I have 180 hours in X4 but to be fair much of that is me letting my empire run and build up money for me. I have likely played about 50 hours so far and know that I will spend hundreds more actually playing it over the years to come. People that stick with games understand this mentality, sadly there's too many people that play a game for several hours when it first launches and then move on. I know those aren't the only people that complain about buggy launches but it is the vast majority.

[Kamuchi_]

If they had to or not, 117 hours of game time and most of it is hands on so I threw another $30 at them with the upgrade as I see this game will get me to the 2000h mark over the next 2 years with the updates, dlc's and mods.

X3 I played alot, X:R wasn't for me but standing on the bridge while my minions do my bidding and walk around the deck of the Cerberus or stand at the bow of the deck while it's moving around is priceless and so rewarding.
Not to mention seeing the size of the stations from a first person perspective is just awesome.

Spoiler

Show

I hope X4 will get a long lifespan with active patching and more content, even with small $5 dlc's to add smaller things like more station parts, new ships etc to help fund development of X5 and engine improvements for both, I'd buy them
I only hope we get a few more receipes to expand production, it feels too easy right now lol.

[CaptainX4]

XR being a disaster? Hahaha, no. XR is a great game, that is not a true X game, you can easily get your fair share of enjoyment out of it today.
X3 has its flaws, like every game out there. If you're only focused on the bad, you'll never see the good.

You know, people like you are weird. I don't mean people with your mentality, but people that believe everything is black and white. It's not, and will never be. You can say it's black and say it should have been white, or vice versa, but all that you're doing is putting a label on something, nothing else. Read between the lines of what everyone here is saying, because you obviously think that X4 is black, should have been white and is not worth it as a game in its current state, thus ES are scamming/misleading people into buying their product. Well, I'll give you an exercise in establishing the grey area:

White:

• ES have a proven track record of supporting their games nearly a decade after release

• X3 and XR are extremely well polished gems today

• They care about their player base's opinion

• They are a small studio with big, big goals/dreams (I consider this a good thing)

• They have made an update to X4 nearly every day since it released

• They have given players feedback on their feedback

• X4 has had the most promising launch of all X games and has at least 40-50 hours of enjoyable content

Black:

• Game launched with some non game-breaking bugs

• Several races are missing

• Several key features didn't work at launch or still don't work

• Released without a manual

• Game costs 50$

• It could have been a much refined product overall

• Niche game that not everyone would enjoy

Now, for the exercise. Please tie both together for me and give an objective, factual and convincing representation, to a newcomer to the X games, of X4 and it's future. Imagine you're writing a steam review, if that would help you, but you have to use the items above.

You know, people like you are funny. I don't mean people with your mentality, but people that believe everybody who speaks out the bad things thinks that everything is black and white. we do not, and will never do.

Just because we speak out the bad things we see all shades, I think X3 is a pisspoorly executed game and I have over 4000 hours in it. its nowhere a polished gem as you say, the ai cant be let to play or they will suicide on anything unless you turn collision off, pathing is horrible but it had awesome sides, flight model, the image of space, the variety of everything, ships, weapons, tools wares stations, it was a mecca for the spacegamehungy guys like myself and to have countless fun hours we closed our eyes on its flaws. When XR been released with the VERY SAME flaws it was a bit harder to accept them and now... ITS EVEN WORSE in X4... pathing that INTENTIONALLY takes you through the stationbodies!!!! c'mon, this is not a bug, this is a design. who on earth does such thing who cares even just a little? now these are the thing its harder and harder to overlook. Luckily X4 is a step forward from the XR disaster, because it was and is even today, well seen nobody is even touching it.

[ApoxNM]

I know those aren't the only people that complain about buggy launches but it is the vast majority.

Wel, well, well.

I have played all x games since X2 (and I even liked XR, which I bought 1.5 years after release), even Imperium Romanum (1996 on DOS).

and I still complain a lot.

I also know I will be playing this game for long (especially with deep and extensive mods) but some of these bugs are insulting, especially the ones that have been dragged over from all the other games.

How come in over 18 years of making different version of the same game, THE SAME BUGS are ported at release. How can you not learn to fix issues in over 18 years????

How come AI pathing is still derpy? How come drone / fighter docking issues are still so bad?

That's what I find aggrevating!

[Alandauron]

Luckily X4 is a step forward from the XR disaster, because it was and is even today, well seen nobody is even touching it.

In your opinion. XR is not a disaster, just not to your tastes. It was at launch though, I'll concede to that. Please don't try to state your opinions as facts because that just isn't the case.

Wel, well, well.

I have played all x games since X2 (and I even liked XR, which I bought 1.5 years after release), even Imperium Romanum (1996 on DOS).

and I still complain a lot.

I also know I will be playing this game for long (especially with deep and extensive mods) but some of these bugs are insulting, especially the ones that have been dragged over from all the other games.

How come in over 18 years of making different version of the same game, THE SAME BUGS are ported at release. How can you not learn to fix issues in over 18 years????

How come AI pathing is still derpy? How come drone / fighter docking issues are still so bad?

That's what I find aggrevating!

I mean besides the fact that I did say that "I know everyone that complains doesn't fall into this category", please forgive me trying to keep the post short.

Essentially I am referring to people like Captain with the mentality of "The sky is falling" when really it's not. People on this forum have defended Egosoft because of their track record. There is a difference between an unknown publisher releasing a buggy mess at full price with no guarantees to improve upon it and a company with a well established track record of continuous support post launch, saying otherwise is just denying the truth. It's going to frustrate some more than others, sure, but it doesn't mean that they should change their model if it has worked consistently over several game releases. I would hold new companies and companies with a bad reputation on launch and post-release support to a different standard than I would Egosoft, that's not because I'm a hypocrite it's because you don't hold an honest person, a known liar, and a stranger to the same standards. You distrust the liar, are skeptical of the stranger, and trust the honest person.

[ApoxNM]

Luckily X4 is a step forward from the XR disaster, because it was and is even today, well seen nobody is even touching it.

In your opinion. XR is not a disaster, just not to your tastes. It was at launch though, I'll concede to that. Please don't try to state your opinions as facts because that just isn't the case.

Wel, well, well.

I have played all x games since X2 (and I even liked XR, which I bought 1.5 years after release), even Imperium Romanum (1996 on DOS).

and I still complain a lot.

I also know I will be playing this game for long (especially with deep and extensive mods) but some of these bugs are insulting, especially the ones that have been dragged over from all the other games.

How come in over 18 years of making different version of the same game, THE SAME BUGS are ported at release. How can you not learn to fix issues in over 18 years????

How come AI pathing is still derpy? How come drone / fighter docking issues are still so bad?

That's what I find aggrevating!

I mean besides the fact that I did say that "I know everyone that complains doesn't fall into this category", please forgive me trying to keep the post short.

Essentially I am referring to people like Captain with the mentality of "The sky is falling" when really it's not. People on this forum have defended Egosoft because of their track record. There is a difference between an unknown publisher releasing a buggy mess at full price with no guarantees to improve upon it and a company with a well established track record of continuous support post launch, saying otherwise is just denying the truth. It's going to frustrate some more than others, sure, but it doesn't mean that they should change their model if it has worked consistently over several game releases. I would hold new companies and companies with a bad reputation on launch and post-release support to a different standard than I would Egosoft, that's not because I'm a hypocrite it's because you don't hold an honest person, a known liar, and a stranger to the same standards. You distrust the liar, are skeptical of the stranger, and trust the honest person.

You are right though.

However, everyone who complains has a right to, because there are bugs and someone who is new to X might not know what to expect.

[Slashman]

Wel, well, well.

I have played all x games since X2 (and I even liked XR, which I bought 1.5 years after release), even Imperium Romanum (1996 on DOS).

and I still complain a lot.

I also know I will be playing this game for long (especially with deep and extensive mods) but some of these bugs are insulting, especially the ones that have been dragged over from all the other games.

How come in over 18 years of making different version of the same game, THE SAME BUGS are ported at release. How can you not learn to fix issues in over 18 years????

How come AI pathing is still derpy? How come drone / fighter docking issues are still so bad?

That's what I find aggrevating!

This bugs me too. And can you even call them bugs? It is as if huge sections of the game are unfinished. I don't know what else to think but that they never finished building the game and were rushing to finish it til the end of the launch window.

The thing is that we have people saying that no one else supports their games like Egosoft with patches for years after launch.

Let me counter that with:

1) Most developers do not need to support their games years after launch because they don't have this level of bugginess.

2) The developers that leave bugged messes most of the time are either forced to go under due to financial realities or are forced by a publisher to stop working on the game.

3) Want some developers who support their games long term? Crate Entertainment, Amplitude Studios, Larian Studios, MinMax Games, Lince Works and I can go on. That's just a cursory glance at my Steam library.

Most of the games in my Steam library do not need support for 8 years after launch even though I still play some of them. This overly rationalizing something that is insane is just not healthy for anyone.

[ApoxNM]

This overly rationalizing something that is insane is just not healthy for anyone.

This!

[Stars_InTheirEyes]

Lets be honest, most Egosoft launches have essentially followed an Early Access development model, apart from the price. I think they're actually quite lucky with how patient their community is.

X4, to me, is either a game at around 60% development, or one which has nonsensical design decisions at its core and they've lost sight of what was liked so much about previous games. I hope its the former, but when I encounter things like autopilot ramming me into an asteroid and Betty says "Autopilot epically failed", it comes across as they just don't care about some very big barriers to enjoyment.

I'm feeling pretty done with the game at this point. I've put 51 hours in and had fun at times but the fun has gone since finding so many abandoned ships that its not even worth doing missions to make money. Combat missions, what are those? Teleportation across the universe? I didn't type thereshallbewings.