New interview

[CutterJohn1]

Well I have never understood that obsession with cockpits. There were two or three in X2 for all ships and there were none in X3s. Both options were fine for me. And lets take a look at the Independence War series. There you have a command section which is always the same and you just attach it to a different hull. So you have different ships with one cockpit. And noone ever complained about it. There were so many possibilites Egosoft could solve this, yet they have chosen the worst one of all...

Yeah, thats the one that gets me. Its such a perfect solution to the problem. Gimme the skunk as a small shuttle. The visible internal volume already fits that size. Make the rest of the ships with a universal docking port that takes this class of command shuttle. Presto, you now can fly literally every ship in the game in a believable manner while maintaining the cockpit and internal spaces.

Then it adds the ability to dock to stations without taking your larger chassis down, as well as the ability to eject, and be able to lose your ship without seeing the game over screen.

Multiple ship people are happy. Internal volume people are happy. Everyone is happy. I can't say how much effort it would have taken to program, but I can say as a 100% fact that the content creation process for that would have been trivial.

[Slashman]

I think what was clear from part of that interview, and mentioned by Bernd himself, is that the existing fanbase, or at least elements of it who are unwilling to change with the game are disposable.

I find these types of comments kind of amusing. Most of the current fanbase, I would be willing to bet, are just fine with the majority of changes and improvements that Rebirth brings.

No one wanted more stupid AI that had trouble navigating. No one wanted more lifeless and static sectors. No one wanted to keep overly complex UI and menus which kind of fought you to do simple things. There are a lot of fun and exciting things in Rebirth.

It's just that a lot of people didn't want to be relegated to a single ship. I'd even go so far as to say that even if cap ships remain unflyable, that if we had at least a few alternate ships besides the Skunk to choose from, those upset people would be a bit more forgiving.

Instead of finding a decent middle ground, like so many developers before them, they pushed the slider all the way to the other side. That boggles my mind.

It sounds harsh, and some may get quite precious about that, but I understand where he is coming from, they had to start making a game for Egosoft, not for the hardcore X fan. What I mean by that is they wanted to get a product out there that didnt have a wall of complexity around it stopping the mass market from wanting to have a look.

What does a wall of complexity have to do with giving us a choice between several different ships? This is the red herring that people keep using to argue against people who prefer a choice of ships.

It doesn't make sense. No one is arguing for a game that alienates new users. We simply want to have a choice to not use the butt-ugly Albion Skunk.

[Santi]

It is a new game, a new franchise, made with a new engine, why is so hard to accept that it has only one ship? If you want several ships X2, X3 and AP are out there, go and play them. But if you want to play Rebirth you have one ship. They decided to have one ship for several reasons that have been stated a thousand times, team size, development time, money, balance of the game, new mechanics like trade and walking on stations, ship being part of the plot, modular damage, new upgrades path etc...

You want more ships, I want more ships, everybody want more ships! But what I really want is the game to get out of the niche. To go out there and sell a ton of games so Egosoft can expand the team and make Rebirth II with more ships and more features. Doing X4 is not going to get you out there and sell massively, you need a clean break from the series, look at Rome II and how well is going for a truly respected developer, simply because they keep chucking the same game again and again with the same issues.

[CutterJohn1]

I'd even go so far as to say that even if cap ships remain unflyable, that if we had at least a few alternate ships besides the Skunk to choose from, those upset people would be a bit more forgiving.

I certainly would be. I don't like dogfighting. I want a nice heavy corvette bristling with turrets and a hefty tank. Larger than the skunk, but small enough to still be fairly nimble for a larger ship. Maybe with an oversized spinal weapon for blasting capitals.

If they'd had a choice of 5 or so ships of various archetypes, there would be almost no complaints. Keep the skunk as a jack of all trades/master of none ship you start with. Add a trade ship, a heavy fighter with just front mounted guns, a kestrel type speed demon for scouting, a bomber, a light capital(M6+ or M7C in size, small enough to keep decent speed and maneuverability) that you can outfit to be a drone carrier, missile cruiser, or turreted gunboat.

I don't need a choice of every ship in the game like X3(though it would of course be amazing), just enough that I can have different playstyles available to me. With the upgrade system they have, that archetype ship can be customized to fit most desires.

What does a wall of complexity have to do with giving us a choice between several different ships? This is the red herring that people keep using to argue against people who prefer a choice of ships.

It doesn't make sense. No one is arguing for a game that alienates new users. We simply want to have a choice to not use the butt-ugly Albion Skunk.

Seriously. A choice of ships and being able to buy trade goods are not some bizarre new concept. They are in literally every sandbox space game, save this one(and darkstar one, I suppose, which was crap), going all the way back to Elite.

It is a new game, a new franchise, made with a new engine, why is so hard to accept that it has only one ship? If you want several ships X2, X3 and AP are out there, go and play them.

The number of ships is not the only change. UI improvements, improved AI, improved pathfinding, improved factory setup, etc, etc, etc.

If you're happy with one ship, go back to XBTF. That's how this works, right?

[A5PECT]

I think there is one thing that is easily forgotten. Beyond creating a game for veterans of the series, beyond creating a game for newcomers, beyond creating a game for money, beyond creating a game for you, and beyond creating a game for me: Egosoft is creating a game for themselves.

It's easy to forget that.

[Captain Lemmiwinks]

I think what was clear from part of that interview, and mentioned by Bernd himself, is that the existing fanbase, or at least elements of it who are unwilling to change with the game are disposable.

do you have a link to that ?

so i can decide if ES is a disposable developer.

always better to know what a dev actually thinks of thier "fan base"

[jasonbarron]

I think there is one thing that is easily forgotten. Beyond creating a game for veterans of the series, beyond creating a game for newcomers, and beyond creating a game for money: Egosoft is creating a game for themselves.

It's easy to forget that.

Nicely put, A5PECT. Some people have respect for that concept, others don't.

[A5PECT]

I'm not saying everything Egosoft creates is perfect and all of their actions infallible. You're free to your opinion of the game, and you're free to disagree with Egosoft's decisions. But they're Egosoft's decisions.

They have to live by them.

For us, it's just a game.

so i can decide if ES is a disposable developer.

You make that judgement about any developer every time you decide to not to purchase their game.

So yes. You can decide ES is disposable to you. You can't decide for us, though.

[Captain Lemmiwinks]

I think there is one thing that is easily forgotten. Beyond creating a game for veterans of the series, beyond creating a game for newcomers, and beyond creating a game for money: Egosoft is creating a game for themselves.

It's easy to forget that.

Nicely put, A5PECT. Some people have respect for that concept, others don't.

i think this threads starting to veer off into the vortex of daftness now.

where the notion of creating a game for yourself might be reasonable to the like of ...say bill gates or the sultan of brunei,for the rest of the earths population its pure silliness.

eg: shall i buy an island in the caribean ?
or pay the same to have a game made just for me.

those choosing the game would be lying. [or incredibly wealthy]

pps..or using that phrase to cover up having to do something a lot of people wont like for a reason you really dont want public.

[A5PECT]

A developer can have multiple priorities. Game development is a business as much as it is an art form, and the degrees to which a developer creates for money and creates a game for artistry is a balance they have to establish for themselves.

You can find developers that make games almost solely for money: we have multi-billion dollar industries dedicated to it.

You can find developers that make games almost solely for the sake of art: we have independent developers that give games away for practically nothing.

Egosoft lies somewhere in between, as are most developers. Yes, they're interested in creating a game that appeals to other people, and they're genuinely interested in those peoples' ideas and opinions. But those outside ideas and opinions do not automatically override their own.

pps..or using that phrase to cover up having to do something a lot of people wont like for a reason you really dont want public.

Neither of us truly know Egosoft's motivations for doing anything. All I can tell is that the decisions they've made don't align with your personal opinions, and you're using that point to automatically assume the worst in their motivations.

[Mightysword]

I said this many times before and I'll say it again. I don't consider myself a fan of anything. The relationship between the developer and I are purely professional, I have the money they need and will pay if they can make the game that I want to play.

Tell me, what is the benefit of a "fan" can bring that a non-fan player can not? If we both play the game, I'm pretty sure we all paid the same price. By proclaiming being a fan did you mean you wrote them a blankcheck, or bankrolled their development process? "Fan" to me seems to be just a pretty word people create to make themselves feel good about each other in good time, and more often as an excuse to impose demand base on a "fantasized" sense of obligation. I think, for some reason - the act of a fair trade between a consumer and a producer - through some strange magic has become an act of delivering a divine favor in the eye of the so called ... "fan", and thus entitled themselves to ... a lot of things


Again for me it's simple. I am a customer with money in hand, Egosoft can make any game they like, I will just sit here and wait for their sale pitch. If I like it, I'll give them my money, fair trade. If I don't like their pitch I'll simply take my money else well. So again, if you do call yourself a fan, do enlighten me of exactly what you did as a fan that were more contributive to the franchise comparing to a non-fan like me (aside from asserting your demand that is). It's kinda ironic really, since I would expect "fans" are who will be more willing to go through the up and down together, but reality is they're usually the first one to turn around and bite the dev in the arse

[Captain Lemmiwinks]

You can find developers that make games almost solely for money: we have multi-billion dollar industries dedicated to it.



and you're using that point to automatically assume the worst in their motivations.

I am not biting,please move on to another potential victim

the art of non sensical contradictory replies for the sake of creating friction wont work.

breaking my own rule posting this reply.

I said this many times before and I'll say it again. I don't consider myself a fan of anything. The relationship between the developer and I are purely professional, I have the money they need and will pay if they can make the game that I want to play.

Tell me, what is the benefit of a "fan" can bring that a non-fan player can not? If we both play the game, I'm pretty sure we all paid the same price. By proclaiming being a fan did you mean you wrote them a blankcheck, or bankrolled their development process? "Fan" to me seems to be just a pretty word people create to make themselves feel good about each other in good time, and more often as an excuse to impose demand base on a "fantasized" sense of obligation. I think, for some reason - the act of a fair trade between a consumer and a producer - through some strange magic has become an act of delivering a divine favor in the eye of the so called ... "fan", and thus entitled themselves to ... a lot of things


Again for me it's simple. I am a customer with money in hand, Egosoft can make any game they like, I will just sit here and wait for their sale pitch. If I like it, I'll give them my money, fair trade. If I don't like their pitch I'll simply take my money else well. So again, if you do call yourself a fan, do enlighten me of exactly what you did as a fan that were more contributive to the franchise comparing to a non-fan like me (aside from asserting your demand that is). It's kinda ironic really, since I would expect "fans" are who will be more willing to go through the up and down together, but reality is they're usually the first one to turn around and bite the dev in the arse

i like you

i also dont like the "fan" tag,as it conjures images of a fantic dressing up or quoting "lore".

but i have supported ES by buying things like the superbox,when i had all the games already.
it seemed they needed income,so i answered the call.

so when they call me disposable...well its like burning a bridge.

[A5PECT]

So you're operating under the premise that the desire to make money is inherently evil?

[CutterJohn1]

I think there is one thing that is easily forgotten. Beyond creating a game for veterans of the series, beyond creating a game for newcomers, beyond creating a game for money, beyond creating a game for you, and beyond creating a game for me: Egosoft is creating a game for themselves.

It's easy to forget that.

So? It doesn't matter they are making the game for, or why they are making it. The fact that they are selling a product leaves that product open to criticism from the customers purchasing it.

[A5PECT]

So? It doesn't matter they are making the game for, or why they are making it. The fact that they are selling a product leaves that product open to criticism from the customers purchasing it.

Right. The customer's prerogative is the choice of whether or not they purchase the game.

The developer gets its own prerogatives, too.

[CutterJohn1]

Right. The customer's prerogative is the choice of whether or not they purchase the game.

The developer gets its own prerogatives, too.

And the third option, which is to purchase it, but to also voice their criticisms in the hope that those criticisms will be addressed.

[A5PECT]

And the developer gets choices as to what they do with that feedback.

And what they do with that feedback determines the choices customers make.

[Mightysword]

but i have supported ES by buying things like the superbox,when i had all the games already.
it seemed they needed income,so i answered the call.
so when they call me disposable...well its like burning a bridge.

But you do that for your benefit no? You identify that they may need the money to make the game that you might want to play so you made the investment. Tell me, would you do the same for a company you have no interest in? To me support is something you do with no expect of return, like raising a child (if you're a proper parents that is). In the business words, support just mean a mutual benefit system so as such there shouldn't a sense of indebted or obligation w/e (aside from business obligation of course).

To be frank, game is an art form, and it's called that way because someone have a vision and they go out and turn that vision into reality. Buying a game for me was never about demanding someone to make a game I want to play but about find a company that has a vision I like. Maybe if one day I becomes a billionaire and bankroll someone, I'll have them make one suit to my taste, but then at that point it would be "my" vision, "my" game. Honestly I would prefer a dev stick to their vision and make a game I don't like, rather for them to make a game that I like by going against what they want to make.

[Mightysword]

And the developer gets choices as to what they do with that feedback.

And what they do with that feedback determines the choices customers make.

Which will largely depend on how valid those feedbacks are. Incidentally, the most valid feedback should only be possible after the player have given the game a proper trial don't you agree?

[Slashman]

So? It doesn't matter they are making the game for, or why they are making it. The fact that they are selling a product leaves that product open to criticism from the customers purchasing it.

Right. The customer's prerogative is the choice of whether or not they purchase the game.

The developer gets its own prerogatives, too.

I'm not sure anyone ever said otherwise. In fact, I can't see any posts in this thread where people said that Egosoft cannot make what they want.

In fact, even in the poll threads, most people were stating what their preferences were, what they had come to expect from Egosoft and what they would prefer to see in the new game. There are always going to be some nuts who try to make business predictions and sales predictions for the game. That happens on both sides of the arguments btw.

This happens for every game. There are things that people who played the previous games before are going to expect to be there. They run the gamut from unrealistic and impossible to stuff that has been a staple of the series that people generally expect.

Why should people be silent about stuff they don't like while it is perfectly acceptable to extol the virtues of all the new features that they do like?

It comes across like: 'Shhhhh. Don't talk about that unpleasant stuff. Just go sit quietly in a corner and let everyone else rave about the good stuff.'