Part three of Steam debate - split and archived.

[Alan Phipps]

I advise a lot of caution from here on. Bandying around phrases like 'modifying a few Steam files' in order to make portable copies sounds very like a breach of EULA and copyright to me. Discussion of methods for hacks, copyright breaches and DRM avoidance will be severely dealt with on this forum.

[Burneyx]

As long as Steam don't respect me as a paying customer that has right's according to german law, i won't give them any Cent at all.......

And what rights are Steam denying you in contravention of German law?

Well, if you READ the SSA, this should answer your question.......

Keep in mind that i have been allowed to sell my used games in over 20 years of gaming, or give back a game that im not happy with for full money back.......

Try this with Steam, have fun!
Steam's solution for unhappy customer's is simply to close their account themselfes, with NO money back for all games on it.......

For those who can't see the difference, im very sorry!

@dougeye
What has an not connected XBox to do with windows life?
Even if i want to connect to XBox-Life for Patch and it doesn't work today its no problem because i can still play my game as it is.
Im 100% independant, always. And i decide when i play a game or not, not any from technical view completely unneeded and in my case unwanted third party online service for singlplayergames......

greetings

Burneyx

[Slashman]

My workaround against Steam (XBox 360) for Skyrim is working nicely btw.

Yep. An umoddable, untweakable Skyrim with no addons apart from whenever they release DLC is certainly my dream experience as a PC gamer.

Oh wait! I don't have to have that because I'm paying the same money and getting a better game.

But you certainly showed Bethesda by still giving them your money and taking an inferior game.

[dougeye]

I advise a lot of caution from here on. Bandying around phrases like 'modifying a few Steam files' in order to make portable copies sounds very like a breach of EULA and copyright to me. Discussion of methods for hacks, copyright breaches and DRM avoidance will be severely dealt with on this forum.

Na Alan they were not on about illegal activities as far as i can tell, they were just explaining how steam works on different pc's, for example if i put all my steam games + program on a portable harddrive and then pluged into my laptop thats fine as far as steams EULA is concerned because you still need to sign into your steam account and you still need to maually input a security code from steam before playing on the second computer, all completly legal it just saves you downloading the games again on the second pc another good feature of steam you are right though that we all need to watch what we say.

[Burneyx]

My workaround against Steam (XBox 360) for Skyrim is working nicely btw.

Yep. An umoddable, untweakable Skyrim with no addons apart from whenever they release DLC is certainly my dream experience as a PC gamer.

Oh wait! I don't have to have that because I'm paying the same money and getting a better game.

But you certainly showed Bethesda by still giving them your money and taking an inferior game.

Well, im happy that Bethesda has given a choice, if i want to avoid Steam.

Personaly i don't need tweaking (or cheating) in a game, im able to play the game like it is........
Not to forget, that im happy that i have no need to type a couple of console commands to be able to finish a quest
In other words, why does the PC version have an ingame console? maybe because the poor players badly need it......

If you talk about mods, Bethesda is working on it to make them avaiable for consoles too, others will follow.
A DLC is possible, a mod isn't that different, a DLC is a mod you pay for, from technical view.......not more not less.

[dougeye]

As long as Steam don't respect me as a paying customer that has right's according to german law, i won't give them any Cent at all.......

And what rights are Steam denying you in contravention of German law?

Well, if you READ the SSA, this should answer your question.......

Keep in mind that i have been allowed to sell my used games in over 20 years of gaming, or give back a game that im not happy with for full money back.......

Try this with Steam, have fun!
Steam's solution for unhappy customer's is simply to close their account themselfes, with NO money back for all games on it.......

For those who can't see the difference, im very sorry!

@dougeye
What has an not connected XBox to do with windows life?
Even if i want to connect to XBox-Life for Patch and it doesn't work today its no problem because i can still play my game as it is.
Im 100% independant, always. And i decide when i play a game or not, not any from technical view completely unneeded and in my case unwanted third party online service for singlplayergames......

greetings

Burneyx

yes your right no xbox game has ever required a patch, p.s microsoft is a third party also like steam.

[Slashman]

Personaly i don't need tweaking (or cheating) in a game, im able to play the game like it is........

Not sure how tweaking graphics settings = cheating. Maybe adjusting the FOV is a cheat.

Not to forget, that im happy that i have no need to type a couple of console commands to be able to finish a quest Wink
In other words, why does the PC version have an ingame console? maybe because the poor players badly need it......

The console is there because its always been there in Elder Scroll games and is a staple in PC games, where gamers tailor their experiences. You know...like how we do it in X games?

If you talk about mods, Bethesda is working on it to make them avaiable for consoles too, others will follow.
A DLC is possible, a mod isn't that different, a DLC is a mod you pay for, from technical view.......not more not less.

The difference is, of course, I currently have access to mods that vastly improve the graphics, UI and add additional weapons and other content and the official mod tools aren't even out yet.

If I wanted a console experience, I sure as heck wouldn't have invested my time and money into a decent gaming PC.

Even if they do release mods for the consoles, they will still be severely limited in scope because consoles have fixed hardware limitations. As I said before, if I wanted a more limited experience, I'd buy a console.

[the-danzorz]

I advise a lot of caution from here on. Bandying around phrases like 'modifying a few Steam files' in order to make portable copies sounds very like a breach of EULA and copyright to me. Discussion of methods for hacks, copyright breaches and DRM avoidance will be severely dealt with on this forum.

I advise a lot of caution from here on. Bandying around phrases like 'modifying a few Steam files' in order to make portable copies sounds very like a breach of EULA and copyright to me. Discussion of methods for hacks, copyright breaches and DRM avoidance will be severely dealt with on this forum.

Na Alan they were not on about illegal activities as far as i can tell, they were just explaining how steam works on different pc's, for example if i put all my steam games + program on a portable harddrive and then pluged into my laptop thats fine as far as steams EULA is concerned because you still need to sign into your steam account and you still need to maually input a security code from steam before playing on the second computer, all completly legal it just saves you downloading the games again on the second pc another good feature of steam you are right though that we all need to watch what we say.

Portable is purely a term used for a game that does not require to be installed in order to run. Which stands for mostly all software to date to be honest.

Installer is basic an extracter that will place the many software related files, registry files and driver files to the desired locations in order for the software to run.

So making it portable is just changing the directory from C to D in an installation setup and leaving it there.

Putting it onto a USB stick is the same thing as far as i am aware, it doesn't require you to change any files like an Operating System would. Like trying to install XP on a USB stick would require some edits only. But that sort of stuff doesn't apply here. Overall it is legal and steam gives you the option to do this from installation (install on a different drive from the OS)

[flybyu]

Well that sucks big-time! I hate steam! I will not use steam! I do not rent my games I buy them so I can play anytime I want even if Steam goes out of business or there servers are overloaded or down. I do not like the Steam DRM. You lost at least one customer on the Steam deal.

Steam DRM is a pain in the butt for SP games and is a pain in the butt to have to it to play your games. If you D/L a game from steam and uninstall Steam your game/games will not work. Very stupid platform one of thee worst DRM's out today. Give me SecuRom or Taggs at-least they can be patched out where Steam DRM cannot be patched out of a game.

Why get a hard copy it's all Steam DRM so owning a disc means nothing.

I hope you will drop Steam for your next release or take Steam out of this so we can actually own a copy of the game when this game is no longer popular.

I also hope you make a Steam DRM free copy of all your new games you lose at least one fan customer if you don't.

[Alan Phipps]

@ the-danzorz & dougeye: The forum has no issues with legally intended portability of Egosoft games on Steam at all. I officially would have issues with someone explaining how to go about 'modifying a few Steam files' in order to achieve 'portability' in a way other than as legally intended though.

[the-danzorz]

Well that sucks big-time! I hate steam! I will not use steam! I do not rent my games I buy them so I can play anytime I want even if Steam goes out of business or there servers are overloaded or down. I do not like the Steam DRM. You lost at least one customer on the Steam deal.

Steam DRM is a pain in the butt for SP games and is a pain in the butt to have to it to play your games. If you D/L a game from steam and uninstall Steam your game/games will not work. Very stupid platform one of thee worst DRM's out today. Give me SecuRom or Taggs at-least they can be patched out where Steam DRM cannot be patched out of a game.

Why get a hard copy it's all Steam DRM so owning a disc means nothing.

I hope you will drop Steam for your next release or take Steam out of this so we can actually own a copy of the game when this game is no longer popular.

I also hope you make a Steam DRM free copy of all your new games you lose at least one fan customer if you don't.

I am sorry for having to be the one to correct your entire argument here.

You do not Legally Own any game you have bought, no matter if you have a disc or not you do not own that game. This is not what you bought! with EVERY piece of software you buy the RIGHTS to play the game but not the game itself.

If steam is offline, server or connection you can still play the game. I have proven this in the previous page. So please read the thread a little before saying some of these things. They are not based around any form of evidence.

Your situation doesn't change regardless of what platform you use. Some DRM are infact worse and that is way game developers want to change to platform with higher view rating and respect.

[amtct]

Well that sucks big-time! I hate steam! I will not use steam! I do not rent my games I buy them so I can play anytime I want even if Steam goes out of business or there servers are overloaded or down. I do not like the Steam DRM. You lost at least one customer on the Steam deal.

That's what you think.You can loose all your games on steam (yes ,even Egosoft games) long before they go bankrupt just because you break a Valve's agreement.
How you can do that?
Problem with paypal (people already lost their games) or with your credit card or even with your game key.
A pissed on life Valve dude who can use the "we can ban your account for any reason at any time" against you ...I call that blackmail policy.

Valve is the lawyer, judge and executioner with products you own and your money.No refund possible ,no way to defend your property

You do not Legally Own any game you have bought, no matter if you have a disc or not you do not own that game. This is not what you bought! with EVERY piece of software you buy the RIGHTS to play the game but not the game itself.

Then I want to see someone from Egosoft trying to get my TC DVD box.

[the-danzorz]

Well that sucks big-time! I hate steam! I will not use steam! I do not rent my games I buy them so I can play anytime I want even if Steam goes out of business or there servers are overloaded or down. I do not like the Steam DRM. You lost at least one customer on the Steam deal.

That's what you think.You can loose all your games on steam (yes ,even Egosoft games) long before they go bankrupt just because you break a Valve's agreement.
How you can do that?
Problem with paypal (people already lost their games) or with your credit card or even with your game key.
A pissed on life Valve dude who can use the "we can ban your account for any reason at any time" against you ...I call that blackmail policy.

Valve is the lawyer, judge and executioner with products you own and your money.No refund possible ,no way to defend your property

You do not Legally Own any game you have bought, no matter if you have a disc or not you do not own that game. This is not what you bought! with EVERY piece of software you buy the RIGHTS to play the game but not the game itself.

Then I want to see someone from Egosoft trying to get my TC DVD box.

Point 1) Well done for not taking into account your CONSUMER RIGHTS! which is part of your countries law! Which will give you the right to fight for your rights should valve remove your rights to play a game without legal justification. Thus making your argument invalid.

Point 2) you went onto something entirely different. You don't own the game. However if you break the TOS of the game egosoft can refuse to support you with bugs and problems, being on this community forum and ensure they limit your access to their product as much as possible.

They can still do this, they can and won't physically try and take back the game from you because that's purely childish. they will simply ignore you in the future as being a valid customer.

If you want to break the terms of the game and services then you get banned, if you're a loyal abiding customer then you have no worries.

[flybyu]

Uninstall steam and let me see you play a Steam DRM game. Also your PC has to update a Steam file so that you can play your games every so often or you get a message you cannot play them then if the servers or server for that is down or to busy you will not be able to play your SP game until it does update that file saying you are ok. Been there done that and will never buy another Steam DRM game again. Also having to run a DRM full time on your PC to play a game is BS. They should go with a DRM that can be patched out. Also owning a Hard copy is worthless if Steam is required because you still have to Download and add steam to your account. Gamers gate doesn't have to be installed to play a game D/L from them Impulse does not require it as well. Steam DRM does and is thee worst from of DRM out there.

Because you like Steam doesn't mean I am wrong about my Stream Dislike. You like it I do not for the very reason of not OWNING MY GAME IF I BUY IT I OWN IT...

[amtct]

Point 1) Well done for not taking into account your CONSUMER RIGHTS! which is part of your countries law! Which will give you the right to fight for your rights should valve remove your rights to play a game without legal justification. Thus making your argument invalid.

Read SSA.By read I mean read it ....take your time and read it ,then read their forums then read again.

Point 2) you went onto something entirely different. You don't own the game. However if you break the TOS of the game egosoft can refuse to support you with bugs and problems, being on this community forum and ensure they limit your access to their product as much as possible.

What has support to do with what you said "RIGHTS to play " ?

They can still do this, they can and won't physically try and take back the game from you because that's purely childish. they will simply ignore you in the future as being a valid customer.

If you want to break the terms of the game and services then you get banned, if you're a loyal abiding customer then you have no worries.

How you can legally ignore a client?
I sell things and I never heard of something like this in the real world.Maybe that's something invented by Valve because according to their SSA they can invent things that not even junkies or alcoholic homeless people can.

Also how is with their support?
i was not able to access my account due to crappy Steam Guard and I had to wait few days for help.Others have to wait for weeks just to play a game which is already paid.

[the-danzorz]

Uninstall steam and let me see you play a Steam DRM game. Also your PC has to update a Steam file so that you can play your games every so often or you get a message you cannot play them then if the servers or server for that is down or to busy you will not be able to play your SP game until it does update that file saying you are ok. Been there done that and will never buy another Steam DRM game again. Also having to run a DRM full time on your PC to play a game is BS. They should go with a DRM that can be patched out. Also owning a Hard copy is worthless if Steam is required because you still have to Download and add steam to your account. Gamers gate doesn't have to be installed to play a game D/L from them Impulse does not require it as well. Steam DRM does and is thee worst from of DRM out there.

Because you like Steam doesn't mean I am wrong about my Stream Dislike. You like it I do not for the very reason of not OWNING MY GAME IF I BUY IT I OWN IT...

Because you like Steam doesn't mean I am wrong about my Stream Dislike. You like it I do not for the very reason of not OWNING MY GAME IF I BUY IT I OWN IT...

I will once again correct this incorrect statement. You do not own any game or software you have bought. You do not own X2-X3-X3TC-X3TC with AP etc etc.

You OWN the rights to play the game only, plain, simple, stated! this is a fact. if you OWN the game you then own the rights to publish, edit, republish, sell as your own game. Which you do not. You only have the right to publish, modify the game to a certain extent and publish your edits under Egosofts Modifications agreement.

So no, you do not own any game unless it is a purely OPEN SOURCE game, even then you still may be restricted. for the love of god read some of the law!

Uninstall steam and let me see you play a Steam DRM game. Also your PC has to update a Steam file so that you can play your games every so often or you get a message you cannot play them then if the servers or server for that is down or to busy you will not be able to play your SP game until it does update that file saying you are ok. Been there done that and will never buy another Steam DRM game again. Also having to run a DRM full time on your PC to play a game is BS. They should go with a DRM that can be patched out. Also owning a Hard copy is worthless if Steam is required because you still have to Download and add steam to your account. Gamers gate doesn't have to be installed to play a game D/L from them Impulse does not require it as well. Steam DRM does and is thee worst from of DRM out there.

Steam is a gaming management and publishing software, it is not a purely a "Downloader" but it helps manage and intergrated into the game. This is its goal and as a result your "request" is invalid, pointless and un-needed.

As also stated, the way steam validates a game is purely based on a Game to Game basis. No information has been OFFICIAL posted to verify the level of activate required for each game.

Steam DRM is not one of the worse out their, this is not a fact but purely your opinion. the overall approvel rating for steam is actually really high. Higher then most forms of DRM out there.

Most "hates" of steam make invalid arguments which you have above. and are purely miss-informed of the truth and their rights.

If you hate steam because you just hate steam, just say it. Stop making Bulls**t up to justify it!

[flybyu]

If I have a DISC in my hand I do not own that DISC and what is on it? Sorry I have it in my hand I own it not you or anyone else. Try and take that DISC and you would be a thief. When I buy something it is mine just like a TV or a HOME etc you cannot take that away from me your view is what the company that owns it wants to believe but when they sale the game It is mine to do what I want with it as long as I do not repackage it and sell it.

[the-danzorz]

Point 1) Well done for not taking into account your CONSUMER RIGHTS! which is part of your countries law! Which will give you the right to fight for your rights should valve remove your rights to play a game without legal justification. Thus making your argument invalid.

Read SSA.By read I mean read it ....take your time and read it ,then read their forums then read again.

Point 2) you went onto something entirely different. You don't own the game. However if you break the TOS of the game egosoft can refuse to support you with bugs and problems, being on this community forum and ensure they limit your access to their product as much as possible.

What has support to do with what you said "RIGHTS to play " ?

They can still do this, they can and won't physically try and take back the game from you because that's purely childish. they will simply ignore you in the future as being a valid customer.

If you want to break the terms of the game and services then you get banned, if you're a loyal abiding customer then you have no worries.

How you can legally ignore a client?
I sell things and I never heard of something like this in the real world.Maybe that's something invented by Valve because according to their SSA they can invent things that not even junkies or alcoholic homeless people can.

Also how is with their support?
i was not able to access my account due to crappy Steam Guard and I had to wait few days for help.Others have to wait for weeks just to play a game which is already paid.

What has support to do with what you said "RIGHTS to play " ?

Point 2 was stating if you break a terms of service now with the game, egosoft can refuse support and other services too you. just like they can with steam. But steam also includes removal of access to the game as well. Either way just abide to the agreement you agree too...

Also how is with their support?
i was not able to access my account due to crappy Steam Guard and I had to wait few days for help.Others have to wait for weeks just to play a game which is already paid

Did you have access to your Email? have the right question and awnser etc etc. Does the mail service block steam guard related emails etc etc.

You aren't providing all the information for me to make an informed reply of weather it is fault of steam or something else.

If I have a DISC in my hand I do not own that DISC and what is on it? Sorry I have it in my hand I own it not you or anyone else. Try and take that DISC and you would be a thief. When I buy something it is mine just like a TV or a HOME etc you cannot take that away from me your view is what the company that owns it wants to believe but when they sale the game It is mine to do what I want with it as long as I do not repackage it and sell it.

You own that COPY of the disc with the RIGHTS to install and USE the software ON that disc. You however do not OWN that game just the RIGHTS to USE it (with some added rights to mod etc etc etc)

If someone was to physically steal your disc with the game on it from you, that is stealing, but they are not stealing your game... mainly your right to access and play the game.

TV is falls under the same thing but has slightly different law, you have the right to use it as you wish. however you do not own all the rights to that TV. there is a major difference on the rights you own for each product and what you can do with it.

[flybyu]

the-danzorz do you work for steam because half of what you say is BS... You sound like a Steam promoter payed by steam to say how wonderful it is.

You avoid the uninstalling Steam and game wont work. Because it is true.

You avoid the problem with file out of date and game not working because again it is true

Steam is thee worst it is just like SecuRom and online activation and connection required to keep playing. You cannot ignore that.

[amtct]

Point 2 was stating if you break a terms of service now with the game, egosoft can refuse support and other services too you. just like they can with steam. But steam also includes removal of access to the game as well. Either way just abide to the agreement you agree too...

Valve is not Egosoft .You can jump around 1000 years ,Valve and Gabe's fat a** is not Egosoft.I can break all agreements with them and they should not take the right to play and own products made by otehr companies.I don't like Counter strike so they can take that .

Did you have access to your Email? have the right question and awnser etc etc. Does the mail service block steam guard related emails etc etc.

You aren't providing all the information for me to make an informed reply of weather it is fault of steam or something else.

Yes I had and it was their fault.All I got was "we are sorry" .

Thanks God that was in a weekend.We all know everyone plays games during the week .

Btw what you are doing here is called "kissing Valve in the a**".Nothing wrong with that ...people in North Korea don't have Valve.