Split from X-Rebirth Steam poll thread - Round 2

General discussions about X Rebirth.

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quase
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Post by quase »

The numbers you have posted are actually from the NPD and apply to the US market. We here in Germany have still loads and loads of shelves for PC games. I always wondered why every one is speaking of a decline in PC gaming while at the electronic chains the shelves are as big as the PS3/360 section combined. Maybe Germany is the last island of PC gaming, but I am glad you others come back to PC gaming again anyway with the help of digital distribution. You can not expect me to throw away my beloved habits just because the publishers decided to completely switch to digital distribution after they and you destroyed your national PC markets.

I won't argue of course that digital distribution is not good for the PC market, never had in this whole debate in fact. All I object is the idea of how the distribution is done. There is no need for third party software on a PC if the game does not take advantage from its features. Like X for example will not take advantage of the only useful feature Steam offers, a reliable multiplayer lounge. There is only one platform I would accept if I had to which is GfWL because it is from MS and tied into Windows anyway. Apart from GfWL as a platform, the only way for digital distribution to go is the way GoG.com does it.

Still I am sorry that I do not see the almighty Steam as the saviour of PC gaming nor do I think account binding in general could be the future. May my Internet connection burn and may my download speeds become 56k again. :oops:

@Slug
As said in my last post concerning the digital distribution quota, let it be the whole 20% that were sold on Steam and nothing was sold on GoG.com if you think that this is more realistic. This does not in the slightest alter my argument that the mass majority did not buy the game on Steam.

I still doubt though that you can make up the number of people using Steam by the number of active accounts. If you have three games on three accounts that you play over a month (in my opinion very likely) you will count as three different users. I think you have to estimate the real numbers from the daily statistic peak. The way I did it may not be the best, but a good shot I think. The only reliable way to find out would be to track IP or MAC addresses for all logged in accounts and see how many of them are the same, thus same people.
Last edited by quase on Sun, 30. Oct 11, 21:06, edited 4 times in total.
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greypanther
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Post by greypanther »

I disagree, in FE3R, ( which is not a good game by the way, ) they are a minimal intrusion as there is little immersion, however for me at least the immersion within the Xgames is one of the biggest attractions. Therefore yes it would break that immersion and be very, very annoying! :)
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Prometeus
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Post by Prometeus »

I don't want to be forced to use Steam, but also I'm not totally against it. It should be an option to buy it through Steam or physically
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Laden Swallow
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Post by Laden Swallow »

quase wrote:@Slug
As said in my last post concerning the digital distribution quota, let it be the whole 20% that were sold on Steam and nothing was sold on GoG.com if you think that this is more realistic. This does not in the slightest alter my argument that the mass majority did not buy the game on Steam.
I think I shall just quote a snippet from a post I posted in the old thread:
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/opinion- ... team/01887
Since 1997, when 1C’s gaming division was founded, the company worked on a model whereby a title developed and sold by 1C in Russia was then sub-licensed to our great publishing partners.

As a generalisation, retail would pay these guys a maximum of 40 per cent of what they made. So on a £29.99 game the publisher would receive about £12 (and on a sub-licensed deal, we would then only get about £4.25 of that) – minus return, write down and consignment costs.

When would we get that money? Well, payment would be by the end of the quarter.

So, let’s say £10 per unit sale goes to the publisher, £3 to the developer/sub-licensor, and it’s in your bank five months after the customer has paid out £30.

Compare that to the digital model. On a £29.99 sale, the digital partner will pay the publisher – or in many cases direct to the developer – between 60 and 70 per cent, by the end of the month following the sale.

Wow. To recap: on a sale over the counter today, we can have our £3 by the end of March, or on a digital sale, we can have £20 by Christmas.

Remind me why we should choose to go with retail and decline to let Steam sell the game?
So (albeit extrapolating as it is a different developer, and applying the sales figures for the witcher 2) that 20% of sales (200K) would have corresponded to £4M to the developer instead of the other 80% corresponding to £2.4M months down the line. Did someone bring up the subject of opportunity costs at some point in the X universe forum (to get shouted down), this is a prime example of opportunity costs, the developer gets the money sooner and can reinvest it 3 months earlier on their 'next big thing(tm)'.

Quoting from the other site linked to in my other post in the since locked portion:
http://www.dereksmart.com/2009/11/esd-p ... ott-steam/
According to CB Estimates from mid-2009, the top ESD sites are rated as follows:

Valve’s Steam (40%)
Metaboli / GameTap (+15%) *
Digital River (12%) *
Real Networks Trymedia (+9%) *
IGN’s Direct2Drive (9%)
GamesGate (3.5%)
Everyone else (Stardock’s Impulse, Boonty/Nexway, GameStreamers, Ztorm, Gamesload etc): 11.5% *
So it appears that steam is the biggest fish in the digital downloads pond.

Furthermore an interesting quote from the same source as above (from 2009):
Steam has in excess of twenty MEEELION!!! Steam client users. By those numbers (even if it were half that), my guess is that almost every living core gamer already has at least one Steam game installed – and so already has the Steam client on their machine. A game like MW2 is not going to turn a casual gamer – who owns no Steam enabled games – into a gun totting lunatic running around with weapons of mass destruction. It is a hard core game. Most hard core gamers already have a Steam game – and most likely a Valve game. So it is highly unlikely that MW2 is going to increase the Steam client install numbers by much, let alone cause a dent worth worrying about.
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EmperorJon
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Post by EmperorJon »

Prometeus wrote:It should be an option to buy it through Steam or physically
You will be able to buy it physically, just for Steam too.
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Prometeus
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Post by Prometeus »

EmperorJon wrote:
Prometeus wrote:It should be an option to buy it through Steam or physically
You will be able to buy it physically, just for Steam too.
Yes, but you have to register it through steam. And you will need steam to play it. What would happen if you lose internet connection?
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EmperorJon
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Post by EmperorJon »

Yes, but you have to register it through steam. And you will need steam to play it. What would happen if you lose internet connection?
I know, that's what I'm saying, because you said buy
it through Steam or physically
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dougeye
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Post by dougeye »

its not a multiplayer game so just play it in offline mode, you wont need internet constantly to run the game, just to register and recieve patches, i think its a misconseption amount non steamers that you have to have a perfect connection 24/7 or you cant even play a single player game, its not the case, constant interent would only apply to multiplayer and is not needed as a periodic drm, drm stuff is done when the game is launched, once launched your good to go.
I used to list PC parts here, but "the best" will suffice!
bobxii
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Post by bobxii »

Antaran wrote:
bobxii wrote:You obviously haven't used Steam very much... it's a gigantic pain in the ass to transfer an account permanently (very similar to any MMORPG).
You obvously haven't played alot of MMORPGS, its very simple to transfer an account for MMORPG.
Longer than you, I guarantee it.

Modern MMO accounts such as WoW to tied to emails and IPs... act funny and they'll shut you down and await verification. They also have secret questions that can't be changed without faxing them an ID.
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Post by Antaran »

So (albeit extrapolating as it is a different developer, and applying the sales figures for the witcher 2) that 20% of sales (200K) would have corresponded to £4M to the developer instead of the other 80% corresponding to £2.4M months down the line. Did someone bring up the subject of opportunity costs at some point in the X universe forum (to get shouted down), this is a prime example of opportunity costs, the developer gets the money sooner and can reinvest it 3 months earlier on their 'next big thing(tm)'.
Nobody is saying that the game should not be offered as DD, this is the biggest misconception amongst the steam people here, what we are requesting is to be able to buy the game !!!!""""ALSO"""!!!!, plz, notice the ALSO.... without being forced to use the steam service, the disc activation in previous titles worked fine.

Also, why not offer it on even more places, why just limit themself to steam, it may be the biggest fish in the pond but all the other fishes together are 50% bigger..... Lot of lost sales there.

Again, none of the anti steam people (that I have noticed) care that the game is being offered on Steam, again good for egosoft for the increased sales, again good for steam users that prefer the service, what we care about is that it is exclusive to steam as an online activation.
Last edited by Antaran on Sun, 30. Oct 11, 23:41, edited 1 time in total.
Antaran
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Post by Antaran »

bobxii wrote:
Longer than you, I guarantee it.

Modern MMO accounts such as WoW to tied to emails and IPs... act funny and they'll shut you down and await verification. They also have secret questions that can't be changed without faxing them an ID.
Perhaps, but it does not change the fact that the sale and purchase of accounts happens each and everyday without problems, I have lots of friends that have bought and sold their accounts in various online games, it was easy and it was hazzle free.

Edited :

Ohh, and btw, people change their emails fairly often also people move and get a new ip address, also adsl in some places does not always use the same ip address each time you dial in, also you might start playing from a friends house or a dorm etc, so tying to ip and email is pretty useless.
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Choublanc
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Post by Choublanc »

Antaran wrote:Nobody is saying that the game should not be offered as DD, this is the biggest misconception amongst the steam people here, what we are requesting is to be able to buy the game !!!!""""ALSO"""!!!!, plz, notice the ALSO.... without being forced to use the steam service, the disc activation in previous titles worked fine...

...Again, none of the anti steam people (that I have noticed) care that the game is being offered on Steam, again good for egosoft for the increased sales, again good for steam users that prefer the service, what we care about is that it is exclusive to steam as an online activation.
Well summarized! but unfortunately hopeless.
Some people in the "Steam side" seem unable to understand that (and others are pretending not to understand).
Steam = Game over
NO PASARAN!
Laden Swallow
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Post by Laden Swallow »

Antaran wrote:
So (albeit extrapolating as it is a different developer, and applying the sales figures for the witcher 2) that 20% of sales (200K) would have corresponded to £4M to the developer instead of the other 80% corresponding to £2.4M months down the line. Did someone bring up the subject of opportunity costs at some point in the X universe forum (to get shouted down), this is a prime example of opportunity costs, the developer gets the money sooner and can reinvest it 3 months earlier on their 'next big thing(tm)'.
Nobody is saying that the game should not be offered as DD, this is the biggest misconception amongst the steam people here, what we are requesting is to be able to buy the game !!!!""""ALSO"""!!!!, plz, notice the ALSO.... without being forced to use the steam service, the disc activation in previous titles worked fine.

Also, why not offer it on even more places, why just limit themself to steam, it may be the biggest fish in the pond but all the other fishes together are 50% bigger..... Lot of lost sales there.

Again, none of the anti steam people (that I have noticed) care that the game is being offered on Steam, again good for egosoft for the increased sales, again good for steam users that prefer the service, what we care about is that it is exclusive to steam as an online activation.
A more recent source:
http://www.vg247.com/2011/02/13/newell- ... of-market/
Mon, Feb 14, 2011 | 18:39 GMT

Steam is hugely profitable, has up to 70% of market: Forbes
An analyst at IHS Screen Digest has estimated Steam’s 2010 revenue at “high hundreds of millions of dollars,” while Gabe Newell has said the company is “tremendously profitable”.

Valve is remarkably tight-lipped about Steam’s financials, but a profile on founder Gabe Newell has rounded up some interesting snippets.

According to Forbes, Valve still employs only 250 staff, and “per employee” is allegedly more profitable than Apple or Google. The company is valued at at $2-$4 billion.

Steam’s user-base of 30 million is the largest in the industry after the big three – Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony.

It’s also the largest in the PC gaming sector. Last year the NPD revealed digital distribution passed boxed sales, and of that $4 billion market, Steam is said to hold “half to 70 percent”.

Thanks, Blue.
Also, why do people keep quoting 'more sales' as a reason to offer a non-steam product. Aside from the fact that this would most likely negatively impact the deal that egosoft has with steam (after all, with a steam exclusive, steam must be paying more), it will encourage more people to buy the game digitally.

If just a quarter of the people who bought a retail copy had bought it instead through a (or in this case the) digital download source, more of the money would have gone to the developer (in the above example using the witcher 2 sales figures and an example of the deal another developer had negotiated; if only 400k bought game, all through digital sales, then £8M would have been netted, as opposed to £6.4M from the 1M units sold - there is also the greater possibility that of the 600k that didn't buy it initially, more (but probably not the full 600k) would buy it later in the digital sales that would follow later).

At the end of the day, greed is what makes the world go round.
fairywhipper
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Post by fairywhipper »

hey, i have an idea!!!!

can we start shouting we dont want steam at all.... :twisted:

would anybody take notice of us, prob not, they dont seem to realise we want a choice of no steam not no steam for everyone.

Only kidding guys,
we love steam, i use it to iron my shirts and power some trains.... :lol:
Given up gaming because of steam
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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice »

Slashman wrote:Firstly, they would have to abandon Steamworks as their DRM. They currently state that it offers them exactly what they are looking for. Then they need to support two separate code bases for patches and updates. They obviously don't want to do this. They stated that they did not want to do this.
Honestly, I cant imagine the devs having to write patches and download it off steam every time to test it. Likewise I cant see the devs being logged into steam for testing most exe code changes.

They must be writing patches and applying them manually for development and testing, and then bolting on the steam code as the last thing before release. (And if the whole steam code is not a module that can be bolted on, they are doing it the hard way !)

As such, releasing a patch that is the last thing before the steam stuff gets added, should be relatively simple.
the old one wrote:We should have relised that egosoft was going down the steam route when they started advertising steam on this forum.So i think that steam is already in the code for rebirth,signed sealed and delivered.The only reason i can think of is that egosoft is not saying anything ,is they are hopeing people might come around and buy it
I think your right.

Bernd certainly gave that impression.
Laden Swallow wrote:If just a quarter of the people who bought a retail copy had bought it instead through a (or in this case the) digital download source, more of the money would have gone to the developer..........

At the end of the day, greed is what makes the world go round.
Ok, so Egosoft does a non-steam disc version that is sold only on their site. Maximum return to them.

I'm happy to order off their site if its non-steam. I'm happy for it to take a couple of weeks to turn up in the mail.
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Sold Out!

Post by David Howland »

I read the question over and over by the spurned third of X fans; why not disk without Steam as well as Steam sales?
Indeed I have asked the same question myself repeatedly.
Well we have to face the fact ES has sold out on us! This is far from suprising, it is the normal way of doing business for companies like Steam. They will have offered ES a better cut of the return per game sold, probably 10%, for an exclusive contract. From what has been said in posts I believe Steam have not only got a contractual agreement out of ES but have been clever enough to get ES to code the steam system into the game.
This will mean that if we did get ES to change their mind, not only would they get dragged through the courts for financial compensation but they would have to produce an entirely separate version for Disk sale!
Lets face it pigs are not going to fly on this one, the best we can hope for is, that if this site and comunity survive this indifference of ES, they come to their senses before producing X4!
Last edited by David Howland on Mon, 31. Oct 11, 01:11, edited 2 times in total.
The BANISHED RETURNS.
HEALTH WARNING! Steam Damages Freedom Of Speech!
Congratulations Egosoft on increasing memory usage from 2 to 3 Gb.
Bin playing X too long when Egosoft refuses to sell you their latest game?
The only steam I want is in my kettle! STEAM=GAME OVER.
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Post by Laden Swallow »

apricotslice wrote:Ok, so Egosoft does a non-steam disc version that is sold only on their site. Maximum return to them.

I'm happy to order off their site if its non-steam. I'm happy for it to take a couple of weeks to turn up in the mail.
And at this point in the 'game' Egosoft is contractually obliged to pay the publisher significant sums of money for footing the development costs of the game. Aren't they going to be impressed with egosoft when they decide to do in house publishing (which itself will also cost money).

That said, if the only way to get the game were directly from egosoft, I would still buy the game anyway (and all the more money to egosoft). On the other hand, I know that that is highly unlikely to ever happen (more odds of winning the lottery I bet (or rather don't)), so will stick to the cheapest option for me, which may or may not be steam - I'm just happy that steam itself isn't a deal breaker for me.
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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice »

Laden Swallow wrote:
apricotslice wrote:Ok, so Egosoft does a non-steam disc version that is sold only on their site. Maximum return to them.

I'm happy to order off their site if its non-steam. I'm happy for it to take a couple of weeks to turn up in the mail.
And at this point in the 'game' Egosoft is contractually obliged to pay the publisher significant sums of money for footing the development costs of the game. Aren't they going to be impressed with egosoft when they decide to do in house publishing
Obviously, any direct sales will still give the publisher their cut. I wasnt suggesting otherwise.
fairywhipper
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Post by fairywhipper »

here is a question:
is there life after steam?
i mean we know that X:rebirth is tied to steam at the moment and if no nonsteam version comes out, what then?
some of us might give in and get it, but some of us cant and so no game. speculating on future, if it works out on steam for egosoft, they will never go back to disc.... so what then. however if it doesnt, will egosoft go back to old methods. however, will we still be here holding out for x:rebirth or x:rebirth part 2 etc. :?

We have a chance to change the future or be consigned to a footnote of history of X:universe :P
Given up gaming because of steam
David Howland
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Two Weeks!

Post by David Howland »

apricotslice, ONLY 2 WEEKS, that is not resolve!
For a Disk version free of spy/malware, free from having to be tied to the internet to simply play a game?
For that I would be willing to wait a year for delivery, mind you it would be better if I could could go to the local high street store and buy it like any other PROPER game!
The BANISHED RETURNS.
HEALTH WARNING! Steam Damages Freedom Of Speech!
Congratulations Egosoft on increasing memory usage from 2 to 3 Gb.
Bin playing X too long when Egosoft refuses to sell you their latest game?
The only steam I want is in my kettle! STEAM=GAME OVER.

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