EGOSOFT and Deep Silver announce X Rebirth (updated 2011-07-29)

[dougeye]

+ we might get some cool little missions were like in x3r were you had to pilot ships remotly, even minature camera drones which you can fly into certain stations etc gives alot more possibilities than "you have to be inside the ship you fly".

[thetack]

who says i fly a superfreighter chris 0132, i fly a striped down max speed and hold M4 ,M3 or M6 i employ others to fly the freighters i just dont waste hold space with wepons if in dout get out of the sector.

[Geek]

YOU WILL BE ABLE TO CONTROL MORE THAN ONE SHIP! "control" being the key word...

It sounds like the same system we have now but, instead if dying with your ship, you just get 'connection lost' and you'll have to control a different ship. What I'm wondering is how much range do we have in that control?

NO.
Again, Bernd only stated about remote controlling drones, nothing else.
Their range is likely to be limited to the sector you currently are, for technical reasons. I highly doubt the engine will support the 3D rendering of multiple systems simultaneously, especially with the systems getting larger.

Besides, while you do not die if a player controlled drone is destroyed, it also means that the main ship will be under AI/autopilot command during remote control. Do you really trust the AI combat abilities ? I will let you guess what wil happen if the main ship is destroyed...

[perkint]

Bernd only stated about remote controlling drones, nothing else.
Their range is likely to be limited to the sector you currently are, for technical reasons. I highly doubt the engine will support the 3D rendering of multiple systems simultaneously, especially with the systems getting larger.

But, the sector the drone is in may be the only sector needed to render. You may have no cockpit visibility of your ship whilst remote controlling the drone.

the main ship will be under AI/autopilot command during remote control. Do you really trust the AI combat abilities ?

Personally, I don't trust or mistrust them. I know nothing about them. Yet...

Tim

[supahfly]

Or equally look at fallout 3, portal 2, half life 2, call of duty 4, team fortress 2.

Change is not inherently bad, I don't see any reason for excessive pessimism, this is the same company who has been making X for a long time, I think at this point you can cut them a little slack.

Fallout 3 is a terrible example since many people think it ruined the series changing it into a total failure of a game.

The rest are laughable since both parts of each game are generally the same game without anything you can call change.

[Geek]

But, the sector the drone is in may be the only sector needed to render. You may have no cockpit visibility of your ship whilst remote controlling the drone.

Having no cockpit (which is a speculation) does not mean rendering ends. The main ship does not magically disappear : collisions, projectiles, AI etc still works. Moreover, what if the remote connection ends (willingly or not) ? Do you think the player is going to wait for the sector to be reloaded ? That would hurt severely the idea of remote control.

[perkint]

The main ship does not magically disappear : collisions, projectiles, AI etc still works.

It might! Your playership may effectively become an AI controlled ship and there may be no realtime connection. It may fall under the same rules as any other AI ship and therefore not need to be IS.

Do you think the player is going to wait for the sector to be reloaded ? That would hurt severely the idea of remote control.

I don't see why, personally. Fairly easy to justify it with some twaddle about time for the AI interface to synch/disconnect.

But, you say my suggestion of having no cockpit is speculation - so is all of this! Until we get more info!!

Tim

[dougeye]

YOU WILL BE ABLE TO CONTROL MORE THAN ONE SHIP! "control" being the key word...

It sounds like the same system we have now but, instead if dying with your ship, you just get 'connection lost' and you'll have to control a different ship. What I'm wondering is how much range do we have in that control?

NO.
Again, Bernd only stated about remote controlling drones, nothing else.
Their range is likely to be limited to the sector you currently are, for technical reasons. I highly doubt the engine will support the 3D rendering of multiple systems simultaneously, especially with the systems getting larger.

Besides, while you do not die if a player controlled drone is destroyed, it also means that the main ship will be under AI/autopilot command during remote control. Do you really trust the AI combat abilities ? I will let you guess what wil happen if the main ship is destroyed...

what zloth means is that what you see on the screen when controlling other ships will most likely be the same as the view you get in x3 were your camera is strapped to the front or top of the ship. only difference being the player is not "inside that ship" which is all in your imagination anyway 2bh if you think in realist terms lol

[StarTroll]

Or equally look at fallout 3, portal 2, half life 2, call of duty 4, team fortress 2.

Change is not inherently bad, I don't see any reason for excessive pessimism, this is the same company who has been making X for a long time, I think at this point you can cut them a little slack.

Fallout 3 is a terrible example since many people think it ruined the series changing it into a total failure of a game.

The rest are laughable since both parts of each game are generally the same game without anything you can call change.

While its true that most games of this list are all improved sequels, having played all fallout games up to New Vegas, I can say that they not only changed the approach, but totally jumped from a tactical RPG to an FPS RPG in a not so bad way. Thing is this change may have disgusted many longtime Fallout players, but in itself F3 and FNV were actually quite nice games with a good immersion.
Of course change is not always bad, I quite welcomed ME2 after I got used to the system, and sometimes it is a bit disapointing, like the passage from Morrowind to Oblivion. And from time to time it is a total epic fail like DA2.
Meaning since we know almost nothing of X:R yet, we can only hope that the change is for the better, though to me it sounds quite interesting up to now. Its nice and all to have a great series, but there is always a moment where you have to change your approach, or you mostly end up with powered up clones of previous titles.

[Geek]

The first point of my post is not the field of view, but the (false IMO) claim about flying (or "controlling" if you like) any ship.
The second point is an answer about drone range.

[Notchi]

Will the copilot be able to use drones as well? It might be nice to have an option of flying the main ship personally while the copilot flies an attack drone.
Also will rpg progression be available to crew. It's mentioned that station managers will improve over time, will that also apply to crew e.g level x fighter pilot... and so on. I'm also curios about economy, like will you have to pay crew paychecks ( like sea dogs or sid meier's pirates) at the end of some interval you lose xy credits or will the credits flow just in ware and property.

[dougeye]

The co-pilot flying the drones would be the same as the drones being AI controlled anyway so im not sure what benefit it would be. I expect the drones will be AI based drones. This is my point about something has changed in the politics side of things in the universe. for all we know the ATF may be there own seperate branch now and be out to stop the increasing use of Ai. something like that lol

[Chris0132]

But that's natural. Again, it seems to me that you want for a fighter to do the same thing as a capital ship and earn the same pay out. So someone bring in a 100mil vessel and earn a 20mil payout, it makes sense that if someone only bring in a 5mil vessel to earn a 1 mil payout. The game "gives" you the option, it doesn't punish you for that but it have to scale in a way that make sense. It's like because you want to use a level one weapon in a RPG for whatever reason then when the later bosses kick your butt, you complain that the game is punishing you for using your favorite weapon. Or if you like to trade in your M5, yeah it will get tedious but that's up to you if you don't want to use a TS. That - does - not - make - sense.


Also what you said about the game scaling is totally untrue, it doesn't have to be "stupid hard/tedious" or "total faceroll", you can always make adjustment to make the game "just right". It's not like X3 was set up in a way that if you fly a fighter, you can't fly a capital ship, and it's not like there is only a M3 and a M2 with nothing in between. You are free to decide which asset you want to bring

- Use one fighter.
- Use a wing of fighter.
- Use multiple wings of fighter (if you love fighter that much).
- use a M6.
- Use a M6 with multiple fighters escort.
- Use multiple M6.
- Use M8
- Use M8 with fighter.
- Use M7.
- Use a M7 task force. (mixed with other classes).
- Use multiple M7.
- Use M2.
- Use M2 with M1 escort.
- Use multiple M2.

So no ... I think you just have to be more diverse in your game. And again, if you insist a single fighter should be doing the same thing as a M2, then a Japanese anime game is much better suit for that.

Which is why I keep saying that making all ships required is a better way to do it, a capship is more powerful, but lacks the ability to do things you need doing, so you bring fighters for that, at the moment it's just capships are more powerful, lots more powerful, and that's it.

Oh I agree with that, but it wasn't what you have been saying though

But this is kind of what I mean about 'you've already done a lot of busywork, you don't need to do more'.

The point of the value system is to allow the game to unfold steadily, it gives a sense of progression, but the problem with it in X3 is that it takes a HUGE amount of time to do so unless you're really good at power-levelling your character, getting lots of money very fast by methods deduced through tonnes of community research and practice.

So, once you can afford a small wing of fighters, I think at that point the game should be entirely opened up. You shouldn't need to buy a capship to take part in big battles if you don't want to. You can if you like, but it shouldn't be neccesary.

Basically if you can afford like 10 million credits worth of stuff, you should be able to take out up to a couple of hundred million worth of stuff in a fight, by skill and planning alone. Because once you get to about ten million credits, you've been playing the game for a while, and what was once fun is sort of becoming a grind.

You can continue to grind if you want to, but the game shouldn't REQUIRE you to in order to be able to do whatever it is you want. We get the point by 10 million, we know how the game works, we don't need to do it for another 90 million credits in order to buy our first M2 or profit-producing station complex and compete in the big leagues. Stations should turn a profit with smaller investments, capships should be cheaper or be no match for skilled flying, trading should offer higher profits more early, the entire game should be more compacted basically. And then you can add more content on top, rather than drawing out what's already there longer than it needs to be.

Basically X3 is kinda spread a bit thin I find, it'd be more fun if you cut out some of the grind and maybe added more on top of it, which seems to be what they're going for with stations now. The idea that a small station will have a hundred or so module slots means you can quite quickly buy a small one, and then steadily upgrade it, you could make a small loop out of a few modules with presumably a much smaller credit investment, and moreover you could reuse those modules later on, you aren't locked into your path as much as you are in X3.

It's a bit like if you ever played fallout 3 or oblivion with one of those mods that makes you level slower? And how it changes the game as a result? Well those games work a bit better if you slow them down I think, but X3 could do with a bit of speeding up.

With that in mind, actually, most of those mods allow you to set the levelling scale, so maybe XR could have a 'difficulty' setting of sorts, which kind of does the same thing, on easier it doesn't make the enemies harder, it just speeds the game up, like civ 5. Civ 5 has a 'scale' slider which basically multiplies how many turns everything takes, the overall effect is that you get a lot more combat and things in between tech advances and building consruction, because combat and movement doesn't change but progression does. That'd fit well in X I think, because I'd like X a bit faster, but I like civ a lot slower, so being able to pick your scale would allow it to suit everyone.

[JohanTheCoder]

Well I really enjoyed >=X2 series and their mods; even flying huge cap-ships that destroys anything in it's way (how can that not be fun?) but I wouldn't mind see something different. Something that was a bit annoying was the late game. I missed some sort of RTS-style control of my fleet.

You know, use your mouse to select a bunch of ships on the map and issue an order with right click on a enemy or something - like selecting and giving orders to units in starcraft. But one cant have everything, nobody thought that the player one shiny afternoon would rule the universe with a massive fleet.

- If the new ideas involves enormous "platformstations" where you can add different modules (instead of connecting them manually) I wouldn't mind at all. Not at all! Good idea!

- If the game is more story-oriented than before and you for instance can choose different pathways (like choosing sides whatever) while you explore the universe on your way to the ultimate goal.. I wouldn't mind at all. For instance, maybe instead of helping you could sabotage a mission? "Doing it for the other side."

- If you cant fly caps anymore, then it's a bit sad but I wont complain.

I will look forward to see the new FPS/RTS/RPG "space simulation"-game..

[Chris0132]

Well I really enjoyed >=X2 series and their mods; even flying huge cap-ships that destroys anything in it's way (how can that not be fun?) but I wouldn't mind see something different. Something that was a bit annoying was the late game. I missed some sort of RTS-style control of my fleet.

You know, use your mouse to select a bunch of ships on the map and issue an order with right click on a enemy or something - like selecting and giving orders to units in starcraft. But one cant have everything, nobody thought that the player one shiny afternoon would rule the universe with a massive fleet.

- If the new ideas involves enormous "platformstations" where you can add different modules (instead of connecting them manually) I wouldn't mind at all. Not at all! Good idea!

- If the game is more story-oriented than before and you for instance can choose different pathways (like choosing sides whatever) while you explore the universe on your way to the ultimate goal.. I wouldn't mind at all. For instance, maybe instead of helping you could sabotage a mission? "Doing it for the other side."

- If you cant fly caps anymore, then it's a bit sad but I wont complain.

I will look forward to see the new FPS/RTS/RPG "space simulation"-game..

I agree, X3 actually had more or less all the requisite components for an RTS in it, except the interface.

It had an economic model with some sectors being rich in different resources, it had a map with varied terrain (in the sense that the gates formed choke points and alternate routes) and it had the ability to build your own ships (slowly, with the HQ).

If X:R is expanding on this, with stations being configurable to produce lots of different things, possibly including ships if the video is to be believed, you could conceivably play the game like an RTS. So a good interface for fleet command and possibly some sort of improved sector control code which allows sectors to officially change hands, that'd be pretty awesome.

[Bill67]

Also will rpg progression be available to crew. It's mentioned that station managers will improve over time, will that also apply to crew e.g level x fighter pilot... and so on. I'm also curios about economy, like will you have to pay crew paychecks ( like sea dogs or sid meier's pirates) at the end of some interval you lose xy credits or will the credits flow just in ware and property.

I am curious about this as well, as well as can crew be killed during attacks.

Also wonder if the universe is going to be like Elite was since sectors are now mixed races.

As for capships, I like the idea of being in command of them and giving orders rather than being the pilot. I mean you rack up millions of credits to buy 1 just to fly it? Its like driving yourself to places in your limo instead of having a driver.

And any word when we can actually have a XR thread by itself?

[Mightysword]

But this is kind of what I mean about 'you've already done a lot of busywork, you don't need to do more'.

The point of the value system is to allow the game to unfold steadily, it gives a sense of progression, but the problem with it in X3 is that it takes a HUGE amount of time to do so unless you're really good at power-levelling your character, getting lots of money very fast by methods deduced through tonnes of community research and practice.

But that is the "essence" of sandbox game. YOU decide YOUR progression. Slow/fast/busy/lazy are all upon you. Linear progression does not make a sandbox game. For example I don't want something like Freelancer where the zone progress linearly. Starting with Liberty -> Britonia -> Kusari -> Reighland. Sure, the progression is natural and not much work, but after you're done with Reighland there is little reason to come back to previous space. In X3 there is nothing to prevent a capital ship captain to go back and fly a M3 and continue the game with it, that's sand box, and sand box "is" supposed to take a lot of time, after all they are games that meant to last for dozen of hours, not a few. You think X3 takes too long to get rich? Hah, most of us believe in X3 it's TOO easy to get rich comparing to X2. Maybe you're expecting the game to be even quicker and end in 12 hours, and somehow I doubt that would be what most of us welcome.

You "can" powerlevel, but the game never "force" you to. You can use community resource, but do you have to? I never do, and I was never part of the billionare clubs, but neither I want or have to. Some people have 2 billion in 2 in game days, after 2 in game days I still fly a M6 with a wing of M3+ escorts, is my game somehow less valid then their game? It almost sound like you try to compete with something, and the more you say it, the more I think you kinda miss the point of this type of game. The game give you an array of option and choice, you're the only one decide what to pick out, no one force you to go down a certain path.

[Chris0132]

But this is kind of what I mean about 'you've already done a lot of busywork, you don't need to do more'.

The point of the value system is to allow the game to unfold steadily, it gives a sense of progression, but the problem with it in X3 is that it takes a HUGE amount of time to do so unless you're really good at power-levelling your character, getting lots of money very fast by methods deduced through tonnes of community research and practice.

But that is the "essence" of sandbox game. YOU decide YOUR progression. Slow/fast/busy/lazy are all upon you. Linear progression does not make a sandbox game. For example I don't want something like Freelancer where the zone progress linearly. Starting with Liberty -> Britonia -> Kusari -> Reighland. Sure, the progression is natural and not much work, but after you're done with Reighland there is little reason to come back to previous space. In X3 there is nothing to prevent a capital ship captain to go back and fly a M3 and continue the game with it, that's sand box, and sand box "is" supposed to take a lot of time, after all they are games that meant to last for dozen of hours, not a few. You think X3 takes too long to get rich? Hah, most of us believe in X3 it's TOO easy to get rich comparing to X2. Maybe you're expecting the game to be even quicker and end in 12 hours, and somehow I doubt that would be what most of us welcome.

You "can" powerlevel, but the game never "force" you to. You can use community resource, but do you have to? I never do, and I was never part of the billionare clubs, but neither I want or have to. Some people have 2 billion in 2 in game days, after 2 in game days I still fly a M6 with a wing of M3+ escorts, is my game somehow less valid then their game? It almost sound like you try to compete with something, and the more you say it, the more I think you kinda miss the point of this type of game. The game give you an array of option and choice, you're the only one decide what to pick out, no one force you to go down a certain path.

It does force you to powerlevel if you want to get to the sandbox part.

The sandbox part is when you can make choices fairly freely, at the start you have very little money and you have to know what you're going for AND be prepared to stick with it for a long time once you make the choice, because there is quite a lot preventing a freighter captain from changing to fighter pilot, namely the fact that they'll be out a few hundred thousand credits in ship exchange costs.

If the game is a sandbox it should be about freedom of choice, and a lot of X kind of opposes the idea of freedom of choice, starting the game with a crappy ship and having to grind for ages to upgrade it is the only way to get to the part where you can start making choices, other than of course looking up where all the free ships are online and capping them all, then selling them to jump to a few million credits as quickly as possible.

This is prevalent throughout most of the game, with things like capital ships being hugely expensive, factories requiring hundreds of millions of credits to set up even a small profit production loop, and re-gearing your assets from one style to another incurs a massive exchange cost whenever you do it. If you have a freighter fleet, you will lose a massive amount of cash if you want to change over to a destroyer, the only real freedom comes when you have money to burn, because you need to burn a lot of it to make any sort of change in how you play. In the early game you really can't do it at all, because it'll set back your progress so much every time you do it. Unless you enjoy doing that, you have to powerlevel to get to the fun part, the sandbox.

It's basically gotten to the point where I won't start a new game without adding 50 million credits and buffing my ranks to the point where I can buy corvettes, because everything before that is a restrictive punishing grind.

[Legionnaire]

Chris thats how you feel about it, I personally enjoy the start of new games quite a bit more than the later stages, I love being outgunned and underpowered and having to rely on MY skills rather than some form of I Win button. I often find that it takes longer to get the ranks to buy more powerful ships than it does to make the money to buy them, and most of my early cash comes from capping and selling ships or early trading, however I never find myself having to sell one type of ship to buy another for my playstyle, The ability is there for me to cap what i want to fly early on, and work my way up. However we dont know how things will work in X Rebirth, hopefully we will get more information in the new X-News when it comes out.

Legionnaire

[Geek]

It is a SP game, so you play it the way you like.

But i have to say that a sandbox game is not about managing an empire, it is about building it. There are a lot of ways to make your way in TC (not to mention the different starts), from a "crappy" fighter or freighter, and that is the real sandbox - not the part where "i have more cash than i need".

I strongly disagree about the alleged grinding. In TC you can easily get 50 millions in less than 3 days (plus max reputation with *everyone*), and that is without using one of the money exploits. That is very fast compared to earlier games, not to mention MMOs.