Trump

[Mightysword]

That's the most scary takeaway from this election.

It's scary because we ran out of excuses. I The one political party that's top my shit-list is the tea party ever since the day of its creation. And for all the stuffs they did, prior to every election you heard this narrative "the tea party will be punished at the poll!", and that literally never happened. Personally I believe the writing has been on the wall for sometime now, so I don't even considered it a wake up call. To me wake up call implies things have been going smooth then you got a shock treatment. This is more like forcing us to face a reality you have been trying to deny.

In 2016 Trump got the benefit of the doubt, we said we're tired of the establishment, we said Clinton is just a bad candidate with too many skeletons in her closest. Those were our excuses. I can only hope people can face reality now with this current result instead of trying to come up with more excuses.

The Republicans backing Trump is disappointing and worrying, but not really surprising - they will do what their electorate wants them to do. A sizeable chunk of voters, including the vast majority of voters on one side of politics that is fine with authoritarian rule and willing to ignore repeated constitutional breaches and criminal activity, as long as it is 'their guy' that does it? That is terrifying.

I wish more people understand/admit it. Similarly I often see defending lawyers get attacked as devil incarnate because the clients they represent, but that's just their job. One can try to argue all days long how moral bankrupt the Republican currently is, and it doesn't matter. They're simply doing what people voted them in for, and those "people" are also American, want it or not, and this election showed there are a lot of them.


In addition, I don't believe the majority of people vote simply base on the ideology line. Seeing how much shift the votes do from election to election is proof of this. How often people change their ideology? Not very often or even at all, but people can switch their votes many times during their life time. It's not like if someone call himself "Conservative" will automatically mark down all Republican options on the ballot like a robot, person calling herself "Liberal" not just gonna mindlessly tick all the Democrat's boxes. Florida (deep red) actually voted to back the measure to bring minimum wage to $15 in the state, while Colorado voted to bring the tax rate down. You can have people who are fiscal conservative but social liberal or vice versa. America has a big problem, but we'll need to fix the current culture of obsession of putting singular labels on people and play a very narrow association game if we want to fix it.

[Vertigo 7]

my point is more about Trump being shielded due to his position and allowed to waste the time of the courts for his meritless cases and false accusations.

It's a court job to check, if the case is valid or not. So far they seems to be doing their job fine.
Unless it's stalling for time to invalidate election by missing the certification deadline, this is perfectly good approach - we can see what was the evidence and what amount of votes were involved - this is much better to clear things out to general populace than vague "fraud / no fraud" declaration of either side.

Either there were some glitches/mistakes/frauds that stack up to affect election results or they were not enought to change election results - both scenarios are better than having either 70+ mil people not trusting the election results.
I said beforethe election that it would be better, if one candidate would win with safe margins in battleground states. Unfortunately 2020 is not kind to us and it's still November.

There is still some time before the deadline and it seem there is less and less court cases.
I'd expect if there would actually be some kind of wide spread fraud they would reveal, but it seems (GA?) recount found only like 2k votes.
I'm keen to belive there was a fraud in some cases (like that footage where they bar the windows and not let in observers when counting votes or ballot harvesting or ballot backdating), but then I see that both Trump and Republicans didn't do ANYTHING to prevent that, so if they don't care then why should I?

One fun thing is that Media will finally collapse after Trump is gone - Fox is already bleeding watches and aparently CNN is prepared for sale.
I wonder for long will take them to turn on Biden to canibalize him.

That's exactly what Trump is doing. He's throwing shit at the courts and hoping to bog them down in procedural BS so that he can sue states to stop the electoral vote, not to win his cases. Again, he has provided NO evidence of fraud. none, notta, zip. Even the DOJ investigators came back and told Barr there was nothing. All of the Secretaries of State, both republican and democrat have said there was no fraud. Trump's legal team has even admitted in court they have no evidence of fraud or misconduct of the vote counters. But Trump and Rudy are pushing this BS line to the public regardless of what's going on in the courts and what every official is saying.

Obviously there's not going to be enough discrepancies to flip a state back to Trump. Even the 2600 votes found in Floyd County only reduced Biden's lead by about 700 votes. But no one in a "Biden/Harris" van parked outside of a vote counting office, filled out ballots, and carried them inside. This is the insane shit Trump is peddling to the public and his idiot followers are buying it.

[mr.WHO]

[Obviously there's not going to be enough discrepancies to flip a state back to Trump. Even the 2600 votes found in Floyd County only reduced Biden's lead by about 700 votes. But no one in a "Biden/Harris" van parked outside of a vote counting office, filled out ballots, and carried them inside. This is the insane shit Trump is peddling to the public and his idiot followers are buying it.

Obviously it's within legal framework and within his right throw as many court cases as he want.
This is much better scenario than him throwing a tantrum and claiming fraud without any legal action.
Even better that some discrepancies were found - it would not be plausible if it would be crystal clear and it would be shitstorm if actual meaningful fraud was discovered.

Once all court cases are closed there won't be many people challenge the election - that's actually rather good outcome, if they make it till Decemebr deadline.

[Vertigo 7]

[Obviously there's not going to be enough discrepancies to flip a state back to Trump. Even the 2600 votes found in Floyd County only reduced Biden's lead by about 700 votes. But no one in a "Biden/Harris" van parked outside of a vote counting office, filled out ballots, and carried them inside. This is the insane shit Trump is peddling to the public and his idiot followers are buying it.

Obviously it's within legal framework and within his right throw as many court cases as he want.
This is much better scenario than him throwing a tantrum and claiming fraud without any legal action.
Even better that some discrepancies were found - it would not be plausible if it would be crystal clear and it would be shitstorm if actual meaningful fraud was discovered.

Once all court cases are closed there won't be many people challenge the election - that's actually rather good outcome, if they make it till Decemebr deadline.

Oh? So in 2016 when he claimed there were millions of fraudulent votes without proof but didn't take it to court, that was a bad scenario? Wasting the courts time and tax payer money with cases that are baseless and meritless is a good scenario? Disrupting a lawful and democratic process to soothe the butt hurt of a despot is a good scenario?

A few discrepancies is a long way from fraud, much less mass fraud. When you have 150 million people vote, there's gonna be something somewhere that miscounted a few; that's a practical guarantee and to be expected. Still, that doesn't mean there's some grand conspiracy that he's alleging and the accusation alone should warrant lawsuits for slander and libel.

[Vertigo 7]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... uxbndlbing

Dude knew he was done the moment he said nothing went wrong with the election. What a petty little insecure bitch republicans indentured themselves to.

[Rug]

Oh? So in 2016 when he claimed there were millions of fraudulent votes without proof but didn't take it to court, that was a bad scenario? Wasting the courts time and tax payer money with cases that are baseless and meritless is a good scenario? Disrupting a lawful and democratic process to soothe the butt hurt of a despot is a good scenario?

I agree with Mr who's point.

Trump has close to half the voting public who are fans of his. He states there has been massive fraud. His fans believe him.

If no cases are followed up, then the 70 million feel robbed and disenfranchised.

By going through the correct processes, and demonstrating the vote was fair, their argument with the system is delegitimised.

Which is better?

Ideally there would be no wasted court time and money. But better that than armed and angry trump supporters feeling cheated and ignored. We know it was a valid vote. It has been checked and tested. Only the truly paranoid will still believe otherwise, and that will be a fixed group anyway.

Situation now is perhaps unhappy, but defused to a large extent.

Rug.

P. S. Loose = opposite of tight
Lose = opposite of win.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

I'm not surprised at all by Republicans backing Trump's bulls*it. It's politics, it's about thinking about what happens next. They know Trump is going to lose, but they also know a good chunk of Republicans is with him. So, by backing up the fraud theory, they create an argument for next elections. And it's a very strong argument for their base. It's not about backing Trump, it's about sending the message that "democrats are bad". And it's not even a problem the fact this fraud theory is based on absolutely nothing, it doesn't matter: their people is believing that to be truth, and nothing can change their beliefs.

[Vertigo 7]

Oh? So in 2016 when he claimed there were millions of fraudulent votes without proof but didn't take it to court, that was a bad scenario? Wasting the courts time and tax payer money with cases that are baseless and meritless is a good scenario? Disrupting a lawful and democratic process to soothe the butt hurt of a despot is a good scenario?

I agree with Mr who's point.

Trump has close to half the voting public who are fans of his. He states there has been massive fraud. His fans believe him.

If no cases are followed up, then the 70 million feel robbed and disenfranchised.

By going through the correct processes, and demonstrating the vote was fair, their argument with the system is delegitimised.

Which is better?

Ideally there would be no wasted court time and money. But better that than armed and angry trump supporters feeling cheated and ignored. We know it was a valid vote. It has been checked and tested. Only the truly paranoid will still believe otherwise, and that will be a fixed group anyway.

Situation now is perhaps unhappy, but defused to a large extent.

Rug.

P. S. Loose = opposite of tight
Lose = opposite of win.

So what you're saying is every time someone looses an election, the response should be to accuse the other side of fraud and mass conspiracies, take the baseless claims to court, and act like a petulant child? All of the other elections we've had over the last 250 years, we did those wrong? The loosing side was robbed and disenfranchised because they didn't see a cousin diddling loon hold a press conference outside of a porn shop and deny reality?

I really don't get why you're rewarding Trump for attacking our democratic process. It doesn't matter if the courts throw out every single case of his. He's still going to whine about the "deep state" and about how "unfairly he's been treated" and never concede defeat. This is going to go on and on and his people will still refuse to believe reality. Hell, they're sending death threats to the republican Secretaries of State for not playing Trump's stupid game. Lindsey Graham just chastised the GA SoS for not throwing out thousands of votes just 'cuz.

There is absolutely nothing about this that is right, or normal, or will satisfy the idiots that follow him.

And while you're sitting here worried about how republican voters may feel disenfranchised, they're actively trying to disenfranchise 75 million that did not vote for that jack ass.

I'm not surprised at all by Republicans backing Trump's bulls*it. It's politics, it's about thinking about what happens next. They know Trump is going to lose, but they also know a good chunk of Republicans is with him. So, by backing up the fraud theory, they create an argument for next elections. And it's a very strong argument for their base. It's not about backing Trump, it's about sending the message that "democrats are bad". And it's not even a problem the fact this fraud theory is based on absolutely nothing, it doesn't matter: their people is believing that to be truth, and nothing can change their beliefs.

This ain't politics. This is catering to the whims of a wanna be dictator.

[Rug]

So what you're saying is every time someone looses an election, the response should be to accuse the other side of fraud and mass conspiracies, take the baseless claims to court, and act like a petulant child?

No. Of course I'm not.

I'm saying that *if* you do have a case where up to 70 million people are being told that they have been cheated (and they believe it !), then the best approach isn't just to ignore the allegations, but to prove them to be wrong.

I understand that you are fed up with Trump and his followers, and don't want to waste any more time on them. But there are nearly as many who still supported Trump as supported Biden. And I believe (and this seems to be where we disagree, and quite probably will continue to) the best way to calm things down is by reason and clear, rational dialogue. But hey, I'm just a daft old soft leftie, and I don't even live in the states, so what do I know?

Rug

P.S. It's still "lose" and "losing"

[Vertigo 7]

So what you're saying is every time someone looses an election, the response should be to accuse the other side of fraud and mass conspiracies, take the baseless claims to court, and act like a petulant child?

No. Of course I'm not.

I'm saying that *if* you do have a case where up to 70 million people are being told that they have been cheated (and they believe it !), then the best approach isn't just to ignore the allegations, but to prove them to be wrong.

I understand that you are fed up with Trump and his followers, and don't want to waste any more time on them. But there are nearly as many who still supported Trump as supported Biden. And I believe (and this seems to be where we disagree, and quite probably will continue to) the best way to calm things down is by reason and clear, rational dialogue. But hey, I'm just a daft old soft leftie, and I don't even live in the states, so what do I know?

Rug

P.S. It's still "lose" and "losing"

That's not how our legal system works. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. It's Trump's job to back up his claim, which he has failed spectacularly to do, yet it's changing nothing among his followers.

[Vertigo 7]

obtw, while you guys are worried about how republican voters may feel, Michigan GOP operatives nearly blocked certification of their votes and attempted to completely drop Detroit, which is 79% black, from the vote count. The board voted 2-2 on the certification, stopping it, and stirred up a massive shit storm. The overtly racist move forced them to vote again which ended up 4-0 allowing the certification to proceed.

This is some of the real world impacts of Trump's petulance, just so you know what you're defending.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... id=BHEA000

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

That's not how our legal system works. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. It's Trump's job to back up his claim, which he has failed spectacularly to do, yet it's changing nothing among his followers.

Yes, but 70 million people doesn't care about how your legal system works, and you can't just ignore them and call them conspirationists (even if they probably are).
I understand you're angry (you = a lot of Americans), but if you don't prove Trump is wrong, convincing at least a part of their supporters it's not a fraud, the situation will escalate even more than how much already is.
Your objective, as democrats, must not be to "just throw him out of the office", but "avoid tensions to rise too much", because virtually everyone is armed and "simple riots" can turn to a civil war. Improbable, but not impossible.

[Vertigo 7]

That's not how our legal system works. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. It's Trump's job to back up his claim, which he has failed spectacularly to do, yet it's changing nothing among his followers.

Yes, but 70 million people doesn't care about how your legal system works, and you can't just ignore them and call them conspirationists (even if they probably are).
I understand you're angry (you = a lot of Americans), but if you don't prove Trump is wrong, convincing at least a part of their supporters it's not a fraud, the situation will escalate even more than how much already is.
Your objective, as democrats, must not be to "just throw him out of the office", but "avoid tensions to rise too much", because virtually everyone is armed and "simple riots" can turn to a civil war. Improbable, but not impossible.

Let me put this in other words.

There's not going to be any amount of proof that will convince these nutters that Biden legitimately won the election. They don't care. Trump is always right for them. If Trump didn't say it, it's fake news. There is not going to be anything anyone can do to convince them of the truth so long as Trump himself is fighting against reality. And even if Trump gives up, it most likely won't change their opinions.

I'll ask you guys yet again. How do you have a rational discussion with the irrational?

If the lack of evidence and the refutals by every official that isn't on Trump's campaign team hasn't convinced them, what will? What magic combination of words will convince the horde of "very fine people" that they've lost and need to move on?

And ya know, there's a good chance too that this isn't simply irrationality on the part of republicans. There's also the those, like Trump and Rudy and that Aryan bimbo press secretary of his, that know they've lost and are trying to subvert democracy. There are plenty within the ranks of republicans that would be perfectly fine with installing our very own version of Putin over here and give up on any pretense of having a democracy.

[Olterin]

There's still a pretty big chunk of the (US)American population who did not vote, right? Even if your arguments will not convince the irrational Trump supporters, there might be some who do get swayed (every one of them worth the effort I'd say), and those who didn't vote might start paying (more) attention.

[Vertigo 7]

There's still a pretty big chunk of the (US)American population who did not vote, right? Even if your arguments will not convince the irrational Trump supporters, there might be some who do get swayed (every one of them worth the effort I'd say), and those who didn't vote might start paying (more) attention.

Perhaps. The totals ended up being something like 70% of the eligible voting population cast a vote this election, the highest in over a century. But the ones that didn't vote aren't the ones trying to over throw the vote. They're not the ones that need convincing and the ones that do need convincing aren't going to be convinced.

How long do we continue to entertain them? A year? 4 years? 10? This is playing out as "Our guy won! Democrats cheated!" "Do you have proof the democrats cheated?" "no" "Then your guy lost" "But we heard that Billy's Uncle's Step Brother's 3rd Cousin twice removed saw a weird guy in a van!" "That's not evidence" "Is too!" "Is not." "Is so!" "go away" "no! Our guy won! Democrats cheated!" "Do you have proof the democrats cheated?" "no" on and on like a broken record.

[matthewfarmery]

This is an interesting read, and why so many of Trump's cases have been thrown out of court.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/11/18 ... y-have-to/

Also,

Rudy Giuliani makes series of blunders in court as he argues US election was stolen from Trump

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/rudy-giuliani ... 56186.html

Which is laughable to say the least, he hasn't been seen in a court room for a long time.

Once a hard-nosed federal prosecutor who made a name for himself going after New York mobsters in the 1980s, Mr Giuliani had not appeared in court as an attorney since 1992, according to court records.

So no wonder, he has made so many blunders.

Then again, who is conning who? will Trump pay his and others that has been appointed, their legal fees? a good lawyer can cost $20,000 per day. (seriously)

So, along with his laughable clown show, Trump's legal efforts to do much in any court has been thrown out for the most part. But the lawyers might be the ones who are trying to con Trump? considering, other law firms have now pulled out.. And while Trump's team has been given some leeway, there are laws that they will continue to keep breaking, then the clown show will be in trouble themselves.

[Vertigo 7]

Then again, who is conning who? will Trump pay his and others that has been appointed, their legal fees? a good lawyer can cost $20,000 per day. (seriously)

Trump's recent fund raising is half going to pay his campaign's outstanding debts and half paying for his legal defense. So, his voters, as per usual, are the ones being conned.

[matthewfarmery]

Trump fires head of election cybersecurity

https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch ... 6126533534

Trump fires Christopher Krebs, who led the federal government's election cybersecurity efforts, and went out to say this year election was the most secure. But Trump did his usual BS and fires him.

Trump is still doing a great deal of damage.

@Vertigo 7
Your right, its the donors who are getting conned. As Trump won't be paying the legal costs.

Then again, Trump needs to pay about 7 mill, for a recount, (can't remember which state, I think it starts with a "W" and the deadline is tomorrow. So far, no funds it seems.

[mr.WHO]

There's not going to be any amount of proof that will convince these nutters that Biden legitimately won the election. They don't care. Trump is always right for them. If Trump didn't say it, it's fake news. There is not going to be anything anyone can do to convince them of the truth so long as Trump himself is fighting against reality. And even if Trump gives up, it most likely won't change their opinions.

The same can be said for Hillary suporters in 2016. She didn't went to court and we end up with many lefty nutjobs scream that Hillary was robbed of presidency for 4 years.
Having the same from Republican side for next 4 years will be pathetic. Trump "commiting seppuku" in courts has at least some semblance of dignity that will actually help things to heal much better than any call from Biden for unity.
Courts are the last thing that is acceptable for both sides (and I exclude total nutjobs on both sides) and without them there is nothing else left than Civil War and it will be ugly when it's 70mil vs 70mil.

[Vertigo 7]

There's not going to be any amount of proof that will convince these nutters that Biden legitimately won the election. They don't care. Trump is always right for them. If Trump didn't say it, it's fake news. There is not going to be anything anyone can do to convince them of the truth so long as Trump himself is fighting against reality. And even if Trump gives up, it most likely won't change their opinions.

The same can be said for Hillary suporters in 2016. She didn't went to court and we end up with many lefty nutjobs scream that Hillary was robbed of presidency for 4 years.
Having the same from Republican side for next 4 years will be pathetic. Trump "commiting seppuku" in courts has at least some semblance of dignity that will actually help things to heal much better than any call from Biden for unity.
Courts are the last thing that is acceptable for both sides (and I exclude total nutjobs on both sides) and without them there is nothing else left than Civil War and it will be ugly when it's 70mil vs 70mil.

There's a big flaw in your argument. Hillary conceded the election the day after the race was called and Obama had Trump and his transition team in the White House the following day. What a few did beyond that was meaningless and ignored. Only Trump and those that are in his corner trot out that meaningless dribble. Why are you trying to draw a false equivalency there?