Trump

[Observe]

IF Trump were to give up trying legal maneuvering to try to undermine the election, he’s damaged the credibility of elections among enough people to cause future problems. He’s preyed upon the gullibility of his lemmings. We may not ever see a normal election again.

I think the reverse. Any actual weaknesses that Trump uncovers, are things that need to be corrected as we continue to fine-tune the machinery of democracy. If it turns out that the results are fair, we can be confident that our election system is operating as expected.

[Vertigo 7]

IF Trump were to give up trying legal maneuvering to try to undermine the election, he’s damaged the credibility of elections among enough people to cause future problems. He’s preyed upon the gullibility of his lemmings. We may not ever see a normal election again.

I think the reverse. Any actual weaknesses that Trump uncovers, are things that need to be corrected as we continue to fine-tune the machinery of democracy. If it turns out that the results are fair, we can be confident that our election system is operating as expected.

It's the people, not the system, that are the problem in this case. He's got a mass of idiots screaming to deny the votes of millions, believing they're fraudulent without any proof to that effect. They're taking Trump's word and whatever Rudy Colludy and Tucker Carlson say as the unvarnished truth.

As the saying goes, "you can't fix stupid".

[red assassin]

I think the reverse. Any actual weaknesses that Trump uncovers, are things that need to be corrected as we continue to fine-tune the machinery of democracy. If it turns out that the results are fair, we can be confident that our election system is operating as expected.

I strongly disagree here. Polling from a few days ago indicates 70-80% of Republicans believe the election results are fraudulent in some way. There is literally zero evidence for this and never has been, just Trump and co yelling about it. That no evidence of fraud shows up at any point in the future is not going to suddenly convince all of these people that the election was fair after all. Trump is actively damaging trust in the US election system among a very large chunk of the population for no reason other than to soothe his ego.

Sources:
https://today.yougov.com/topics/politic ... iden-trump
https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/9j7sr0my95/ ... Report.pdf
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/0 ... ons-435488

[Mightysword]

I think the reverse. Any actual weaknesses that Trump uncovers, are things that need to be corrected as we continue to fine-tune the machinery of democracy. If it turns out that the results are fair, we can be confident that our election system is operating as expected.

One of the thing I have been saying consistently is "I trust the system". And so far I don't think my trust has been misplaced. I often think people mistake between "the stuffs he tried/wanted to do" and "the stuffs he managed to do". The system is there not to prevent people from trying, but to stop the attempts from succeeding. If a tank eats a bazooka in the face, that is not a failure of armor. Sure the armor will take a few scratch and dent, but as long as it holds, then it does it job. After all the armor is there because it's anticipated someone will shoot at it.

Ideally, no one should even think about shooting at the armor, but our situation is far from ideal. So the next best thing is to take comfort at the fact the system we have in place is resilience enough to protect what matters.

Trump is actively damaging trust in the US election system among a very large chunk of the population for no reason other than to soothe his ego.

I think that's giving Trump too much credit. People are always gonna be emotional after a large result. It's like asking football fans what they think about the team the day right after a critical defeat, and it's better to not taking stock of that. I don't think a proper discussion can take place any time soon. And people will have the chance to voice it again in 2 years during the midterm.

Cynicism about the election result is nothing new.

[Vertigo 7]

I think the reverse. Any actual weaknesses that Trump uncovers, are things that need to be corrected as we continue to fine-tune the machinery of democracy. If it turns out that the results are fair, we can be confident that our election system is operating as expected.

One of the thing I have been saying consistently is "I trust the system". And so far I don't think my trust has been misplaced. I often think people mistake between "the stuffs he tried/wanted to do" and "the stuffs he managed to do". The system is there not to prevent people from trying, but to stop the attempts from succeeding. If a tank eats a bazooka in the face, that is not a failure of armor. Sure the armor will take a few scratch and dent, but as long as it holds, then it does it job. After all the armor is there because it's anticipated someone will shoot at it.

Ideally, no one should even think about shooting at the armor, but our situation is far from ideal. So the next best thing is to take comfort at the fact the system we have in place is resilience enough to protect what matters.

A quick search of your posts reveals this is the only instance you've strung those words together. Your consistent advocacy for apathy is hardly a ringing endorsement of the systems we have in place, however. If the systems worked as advertised, Trump would have been tossed out on his ass months ago.

[Axeface]

Trump is actively damaging trust in the US election system among a very large chunk of the population for no reason other than to soothe his ego.

It should be written into the constitution that elected representatives are required to act with a modicum of humility and respect, what trump has constantly done to society should be criminal. This damage is effectively permanent.

[Vertigo 7]

Trump is actively damaging trust in the US election system among a very large chunk of the population for no reason other than to soothe his ego.

It should be written into the constitution that elected representatives are required to act with a modicum of humility and respect, what trump has constantly done to society should be criminal. This damage is effectively permanent.

A lot of what he's done has been criminal. Hell, what he's doing right now IS criminal.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

A quick search of your posts reveals this is the only instance you've strung those words together. Your consistent advocacy for apathy is hardly a ringing endorsement of the systems we have in place, however. If the systems worked as advertised, Trump would have been tossed out on his ass months ago.

Based on what I could see in the last years, it's not about the system "not working as advertised". The fact is the system "IS NOT as advertised". The "balance of power" any democracy must have, in the case of USA is working only in the specific case of the President being not too crazy and not too narcissist. It was only a matter of time for America to have a Trump, and if things do not change on how different powers are "isolated" from the others, you're going to have another Trump in the close future (Bloomberg was a risky candidate - media moguls tend to be).

[Vertigo 7]

Based on what I could see in the last years, it's not about the system "not working as advertised". The fact is the system "IS NOT as advertised". The "balance of power" any democracy must have, in the case of USA is working only in the specific case of the President being not too crazy and not too narcissist. It was only a matter of time for America to have a Trump, and if things do not change on how different powers are "isolated" from the others, you're going to have another Trump in the close future (Bloomberg was a risky candidate - media moguls tend to be).

Democracy requires more than a balance of power to be successful. It requires the people wanting it to succeed. And what we're faced with today is the sitting president and millions of others actively attacking its basic principle and seeking its failure. The systems have allowed Trump to place himself above the constitution. The systems have allowed Mitch McConnel to turn congress into a body that will not act on behalf of the people, but instead acts in the interests of one man. The systems allow for state sanctioned murders of unarmed civilians by forces that were charged with their protection. The systems have allowed the mega rich to expand their wealth at the expense of those that have continued to struggle to feed their children. And the people that have demanded change to correct these injustices are being labeled extremists, socialists, Marxists, etc. while actual Nazis and other white supremacists are being called "very fine people".

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

Exactly what I said: the system IS NOT what it's advertised to be. The problem isn't Trump or his thugs, it's the fact they can do what they did by bending the rules, not breaking them. I'm not saying other consitutions are full proof, but it has been too easy in USA, and because of that some rules need to be changed.

[Alan Phipps]

It might not always be the case that the rules are necessarily wrong or ill-judged. Sometimes problems arise when the authorities that interpret, apply, police, and enforce the rules are either the ones bending the rules or are under some measure of control from, or commitment to, the ones who are. Such potential for misuse has always existed, and not just in the USA.

How many times is the complaint 'One rule for us and another for them' heard about people with money, authority or influence?

It is almost a fact of democracy that sometimes it will go wrong for a while because people are neither perfect nor predictable, whether the electorate or those elected.

[Vertigo 7]

How many times is the complaint 'One rule for us and another for them' heard about people with money, authority or influence?

This is very much the root of the problem and it gets compounded by people that naively spout such platitudes as "I trust the system" and demand people bury their heads in the sand and ignore everything that's going on around them.

[Vertigo 7]

Word out of the WH is Trump is wanting options to attack Iran's nuclear testing sites.

[eladan]

The systems have allowed Mitch McConnel to turn congress into a body that will not act on behalf of the people, but instead acts in the interests of one man.

Actually, you could argue that he *did* act on behalf of the people - just the ones that support everything that Trump does, which, as we've seen, is a sizeable chunk of the overall population of the US. That's the most scary takeaway from this election. The Republicans backing Trump is disappointing and worrying, but not really surprising - they will do what their electorate wants them to do. A sizeable chunk of voters, including the vast majority of voters on one side of politics that is fine with authoritarian rule and willing to ignore repeated constitutional breaches and criminal activity, as long as it is 'their guy' that does it? That is terrifying.

[Vertigo 7]

My theory is that to be in such high places, you have to come to compromise a lot. So, no US President (or any corporate super-manager, or high ranking politician around the world) will never be what normal people would call "a good person". Off course, there's the bad and the worse, but that's it.

Unless Democrats flood GA to flip the Senate. Then you can kiss compromise part goodbye. Yang already openly admitted he moved to GA for the election.
Beyond that point the will be no point in having any states or electoral college if averyone can move around to flip states without any limitation.
There should be some kind of minimal residence time limit, like one year to prevent it.

An even better idea would make it illegal for anyone to file lawsuits alleging fraud without having evidence to back it up.

[mr.WHO]

My theory is that to be in such high places, you have to come to compromise a lot. So, no US President (or any corporate super-manager, or high ranking politician around the world) will never be what normal people would call "a good person". Off course, there's the bad and the worse, but that's it.

Unless Democrats flood GA to flip the Senate. Then you can kiss compromise part goodbye. Yang already openly admitted he moved to GA for the election.
Beyond that point the will be no point in having any states or electoral college if averyone can move around to flip states without any limitation.
There should be some kind of minimal residence time limit, like one year to prevent it.

An even better idea would make it illegal for anyone to file lawsuits alleging fraud without having evidence to back it up.

Evidence and proof is not the same thing. Even incorrect and false information is evidence, but it's not a proof.
It's a court job to check the claim and dismiss them, so in the word of democrats "the system works as intended"...so far.
It's Trump right to contest the election in court, albeit if he somehow stall to invalidate results it will be phyrric victory that will bite everyone in the ass in 2-4 years.

[Vertigo 7]

Unless Democrats flood GA to flip the Senate. Then you can kiss compromise part goodbye. Yang already openly admitted he moved to GA for the election.
Beyond that point the will be no point in having any states or electoral college if averyone can move around to flip states without any limitation.
There should be some kind of minimal residence time limit, like one year to prevent it.

An even better idea would make it illegal for anyone to file lawsuits alleging fraud without having evidence to back it up.

Evidence and proof is not the same thing. Even incorrect and false information is evidence, but it's not a proof.
It's a court job to check the claim and dismiss them, so in the word of democrats "the system works as intended"...so far.
It's Trump right to contest the election in court, albeit if he somehow stall to invalidate results it will be phyrric victory that will bite everyone in the ass in 2-4 years.

Except what he's doing is tantamount to filing a false police report, something anyone else would be thrown in jail for. It would be no different than if I reported one of my neighbors for murder without having ever witnessed or given any legitimate reason to suspect said murder.

[mr.WHO]

An even better idea would make it illegal for anyone to file lawsuits alleging fraud without having evidence to back it up.

Evidence and proof is not the same thing. Even incorrect and false information is evidence, but it's not a proof.
It's a court job to check the claim and dismiss them, so in the word of democrats "the system works as intended"...so far.
It's Trump right to contest the election in court, albeit if he somehow stall to invalidate results it will be phyrric victory that will bite everyone in the ass in 2-4 years.

Except what he's doing is tantamount to filing a false police report, something anyone else would be thrown in jail for. It would be no different than if I reported one of my neighbors for murder without having ever witnessed or given any legitimate reason to suspect said murder.

Well it sounds funny from the country that put lawyers and court trick to an art form. Like it wasn't normal for "celebrities" to get away with a lot of shit.
You're right that "normal" person would not be able to get away...unlike Trump, Biden, Bidens' son and probably like 90% of any parliment (and their families) on this planet.

[Vertigo 7]

Evidence and proof is not the same thing. Even incorrect and false information is evidence, but it's not a proof.
It's a court job to check the claim and dismiss them, so in the word of democrats "the system works as intended"...so far.
It's Trump right to contest the election in court, albeit if he somehow stall to invalidate results it will be phyrric victory that will bite everyone in the ass in 2-4 years.

Except what he's doing is tantamount to filing a false police report, something anyone else would be thrown in jail for. It would be no different than if I reported one of my neighbors for murder without having ever witnessed or given any legitimate reason to suspect said murder.

Well it sounds funny from the country that put lawyers and court trick to an art form. Like it wasn't normal for "celebrities" to get away with a lot of shit.
You're right that "normal" person would not be able to get away...unlike Trump, Biden, Bidens' son and probably like 90% of any parliment (and their families) on this planet.

Ehhhhhh given the current climate, if Biden or his son had actually committed any crimes, they would be in prison. There's no way Trump would let that go. He was already trying to get Barr to arrest them without charge. Nor do I expect the NY AG to let Trump skip out on his trials after he's out. While there's certainly an imbalance in the rich and powerful having a different set of rules than the rest of us, my point is more about Trump being shielded due to his position and allowed to waste the time of the courts for his meritless cases and false accusations.

[mr.WHO]

my point is more about Trump being shielded due to his position and allowed to waste the time of the courts for his meritless cases and false accusations.

It's a court job to check, if the case is valid or not. So far they seems to be doing their job fine.
Unless it's stalling for time to invalidate election by missing the certification deadline, this is perfectly good approach - we can see what was the evidence and what amount of votes were involved - this is much better to clear things out to general populace than vague "fraud / no fraud" declaration of either side.

Either there were some glitches/mistakes/frauds that stack up to affect election results or they were not enought to change election results - both scenarios are better than having either 70+ mil people not trusting the election results.
I said beforethe election that it would be better, if one candidate would win with safe margins in battleground states. Unfortunately 2020 is not kind to us and it's still November.

There is still some time before the deadline and it seem there is less and less court cases.
I'd expect if there would actually be some kind of wide spread fraud they would reveal, but it seems (GA?) recount found only like 2k votes.
I'm keen to belive there was a fraud in some cases (like that footage where they bar the windows and not let in observers when counting votes or ballot harvesting or ballot backdating), but then I see that both Trump and Republicans didn't do ANYTHING to prevent that, so if they don't care then why should I?

One fun thing is that Media will finally collapse after Trump is gone - Fox is already bleeding watches and aparently CNN is prepared for sale.
I wonder for long will take them to turn on Biden to canibalize him.