EGOSOFT and Deep Silver announce X Rebirth (updated 2011-07-29)

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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LTerSlash
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Post by LTerSlash »

First off, i dont know where you get that we can upgrade the player ship freely.
As we cant pilot a capital ship, then the player ship becoming a capital ship is really out of option here...
The player ship seems to be similar size and firepower of a Split Dragon.
In the video it says "we can upgrade the ship as we advance in the plot".
Thats doest sounds like we can upgrade it at will...

For upgrades i can understand, get better shields, upgrade turret (it seems to have only 1), maybe add another turret, get more cargo space, armor, but thats all.

Egosoft needs to reveal the upgrade system to the player ship really soon.
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Post by plynak »

LTerSlash wrote:First off, i dont know where you get that we can upgrade the player ship freely.
As we cant pilot a capital ship, then the player ship becoming a capital ship is really out of option here...
The player ship seems to be similar size and firepower of a Split Dragon.
In the video it says "we can upgrade the ship as we advance in the plot".
Thats doest sounds like we can upgrade it at will...

For upgrades i can understand, get better shields, upgrade turret (it seems to have only 1), maybe add another turret, get more cargo space, armor, but thats all.

Egosoft needs to reveal the upgrade system to the player ship really soon.
Which is an exact copy of Darkstar One and the most unfortunate solution Egosoft could come with :(
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Post by rusky »

plynak wrote: 5) Umm, sorry, but a large target with vulnerable system is a contradiction. Why would anyone build a multimilion capital ship with a vulnerable system???
Because...... DEATH STAR !!


J/k ... I agree though.

I really wish they wouldn't force us to use just one ship :(
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Gazz
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Post by Gazz »

Well, as long as I can upgrade The One Ship to a death star - in size, not just firepower - I can probably accept the monoshipular system.
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X2-Eliah
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Post by X2-Eliah »

If what Gazz wrote is true, then I in turn/addendum hope that you can also downgrade it, so you aren't stuck in a superhuge ship eternally once you get to that level. :(
Chris0132
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Post by Chris0132 »

Geek wrote:
Chris0132 wrote: 2. You cannot precisely target subsystems with capitalships (because you cannot control them directly).
Bernd stated you can issue detailed orders to remote ships, so they are very likely to be able to target subsystems.
They might, but that doesn't mean they'll be able to hit them very reliably.
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Post by heratik »

Chris0132 wrote:
Geek wrote:
Chris0132 wrote: 2. You cannot precisely target subsystems with capitalships (because you cannot control them directly).
Bernd stated you can issue detailed orders to remote ships, so they are very likely to be able to target subsystems.
They might, but that doesn't mean they'll be able to hit them very reliably.
Are you doubting the AI's capabilities? :lol:
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Post by Chris0132 »

plynak wrote: 1) Really? Why? The idea of capital ships is that they can take care of themselves. In other words why to spend millions of credits for a cap ship, if it can be destroyed by 10 much cheaper fighters?

3) And that is the problem. The whole idea of having one ship seems really stupid to me. It defies the very basic idea of X games that every ship you see you can get and fly. Not to mention that a ship of size of an M6 taking down M2 is strange.

5) Umm, sorry, but a large target with vulnerable system is a contradiction. Why would anyone build a multimilion capital ship with a vulnerable system???

But what worries me most is the total lack of official information. It seems that they only have the game engine and now are deciding, what to do next. Come on Egosoft, these are your official forums for gods sake. Yet we have to get information from videos on Youtube and then speculate?
Because when YOU buy a capital ship it'll be much more survivable, because the AI pilots are deliberately programmed to throw themselves at the guns and blow up spectacularly, that being what the AI is for. I would say the best AI would be where some of them go for subsystems so you feel threatened, but most of them just get shot down so you feel awesome.

Plus, there's also the idea that a capship has raw firepower, which means it can do things smaller ships can't. If you're attacking a station you might want to just blast the thing with all your guns, and in fact you might need to do that anyway to finish a ship off, destroying subsystems might be the first part of an attack, then you bring in your bigger guns to destroy the ship in relative safety, but that could be an overgunned M6 or something, which only works because you disabled all the enemy cannons and engines so it has to sit there. You could also maybe have things like sabotage boarding squads which are hard to get onto the ship, but once you do they can rig it to blow.

I don't know about you but flying a capship wasn't very fun in X3. You couldn't so much dogfight with them as you could waltz with them. This is fighter combat, this is capship combat.

What flying a capship was in X3 was necessary, because there wasn't really any other way to kill a bunch of enemy capital ships, you couldn't lead a daring fighter charge to hit the weak point, you just had to slowly drift around in your capship while the turrets shoot them up. Not really very action packed.

Also no it doesn't make much sense, but neither does some random dude making enouch money in a week to buy a fleet of ships and invade the paranid empire, killing thousands of other pilots along the way. The entire point of a game is that you are the protagonist, you have main character powers, X usually manifests this in you having much better piloting skills than the enemy, so adding more ways to show off your piloting and profit from it is natural.

Who cares if it doesn't make sense that a capship has a direct vent to the reactor sitting on the outside, when I expertly dodge all their incoming gunfire, shoot down their entire fighter escort, then shoot a rocket into it and blow the entire ship up with my M3 it's COOL.
LTerSlash wrote:For upgrades i can understand, get better shields, upgrade turret (it seems to have only 1), maybe add another turret, get more cargo space, armor, but thats all.
In the video, he actually shows that turrets are surface modules, meaning you can just stick them on anywhere there is a module slot. Least I assume so anyway.

So it seems probable that you will be able to put more guns on, more shields, more engines, that sort of thing, which is pretty cool I think. It#s also about the extent of the difference between most ships in X3. Assuming you can upgrade it to a slightly bigger model or slightly smaller, you could basically build any ship in the M4-M7 class range out of modules.
heratik wrote:Are you doubting the AI's capabilities? :lol:
Heh, actually I don't know if I'd want too much AI improvement, AI that is just as good as the player would turn the game into a multiplayer game, which means you'd die an awful lot and never be able to get anything done. AI should be fairly stupid, it should just be stupid in impressive ways. Crashing into asteroids constantly due to poor pathfinding is dumb, being deliberately programmed to crash into asteroids when chasing the player through a difficult-to-navigate asteroid field is awesome.

The AI are mooks, which is to say the exist to go after the player one at a time and get absolutely murdered to show how awesome the player is. They're a narrative device, and should be programmed as such.
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Post by plynak »

Chris0132 wrote:
plynak wrote: 1) Really? Why? The idea of capital ships is that they can take care of themselves. In other words why to spend millions of credits for a cap ship, if it can be destroyed by 10 much cheaper fighters?

3) And that is the problem. The whole idea of having one ship seems really stupid to me. It defies the very basic idea of X games that every ship you see you can get and fly. Not to mention that a ship of size of an M6 taking down M2 is strange.

5) Umm, sorry, but a large target with vulnerable system is a contradiction. Why would anyone build a multimilion capital ship with a vulnerable system???

But what worries me most is the total lack of official information. It seems that they only have the game engine and now are deciding, what to do next. Come on Egosoft, these are your official forums for gods sake. Yet we have to get information from videos on Youtube and then speculate?
Because when YOU buy a capital ship it'll be much more survivable, because the AI pilots are deliberately programmed to throw themselves at the guns and blow up spectacularly, that being what the AI is for. I would say the best AI would be where some of them go for subsystems so you feel threatened, but most of them just get shot down so you feel awesome.

Plus, there's also the idea that a capship has raw firepower, which means it can do things smaller ships can't. If you're attacking a station you might want to just blast the thing with all your guns, and in fact you might need to do that anyway to finish a ship off, destroying subsystems might be the first part of an attack, then you bring in your bigger guns to destroy the ship in relative safety, but that could be an overgunned M6 or something, which only works because you disabled all the enemy cannons and engines so it has to sit there. You could also maybe have things like sabotage boarding squads which are hard to get onto the ship, but once you do they can rig it to blow.

I don't know about you but flying a capship wasn't very fun in X3. You couldn't so much dogfight with them as you could waltz with them. This is fighter combat, this is capship combat.

What flying a capship was in X3 was necessary, because there wasn't really any other way to kill a bunch of enemy capital ships, you couldn't lead a daring fighter charge to hit the weak point, you just had to slowly drift around in your capship while the turrets shoot them up. Not really very action packed.

Also no it doesn't make much sense, but neither does some random dude making enouch money in a week to buy a fleet of ships and invade the paranid empire, killing thousands of other pilots along the way. The entire point of a game is that you are the protagonist, you have main character powers, X usually manifests this in you having much better piloting skills than the enemy, so adding more ways to show off your piloting and profit from it is natural.

Who cares if it doesn't make sense that a capship has a direct vent to the reactor sitting on the outside, when I expertly dodge all their incoming gunfire, shoot down their entire fighter escort, then shoot a rocket into it and blow the entire ship up with my M3 it's COOL.
LTerSlash wrote:For upgrades i can understand, get better shields, upgrade turret (it seems to have only 1), maybe add another turret, get more cargo space, armor, but thats all.
In the video, he actually shows that turrets are surface modules, meaning you can just stick them on anywhere there is a module slot. Least I assume so anyway.

So it seems probable that you will be able to put more guns on, more shields, more engines, that sort of thing, which is pretty cool I think.
heratik wrote:Are you doubting the AI's capabilities? :lol:
Heh, actually I don't know if I'd want too much AI improvement, AI that is just as good as the player would turn the game into a multiplayer game, which means you'd die an awful lot and never be able to get anything done. AI should be fairly stupid, it should just be stupid in impressive ways. Crashing into asteroids constantly due to poor pathfinding is dumb, being deliberately programmed to crash into asteroids when chasing the player through a difficult-to-navigate asteroid field is awesome.

The AI are mooks, which is to say the exist to go after the player one at a time and get absolutely murdered to show how awesome the player is. They're a narrative device, and should be programmed as such.
But capital ship fight was fun for me in X3. Put a MARS to a Titan and go to kill enemies. From your text I see that you are simply frustrated that you can not kill an M2 in an M3, therefor you need the M2 to have some miraculous weak spot. Sorry, but that is not fun. At least for me.
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Post by Chris0132 »

I'm not frustrated by it, I'd just like to be able to do it. It'd be a cool feature to me.

I'm sure if you really like flying slowly with turrets you could cover the ship in turret modules and shield modules and fly slowly around with it while the turrets shoot everything. I'd just like some alternatives. Like buying half a dozen fighters, launching them from a small frigate, then going after the capship while it exchanges cinematic fire with my frigate, and there's lasers shooting everywhere, stuff exploding, ships on fire crashing into both ships, surface explosions, shield effects, turrets shooting streams of rounds across space, all that jazz.
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Post by StarTroll »

X2-Eliah wrote:If what Gazz wrote is true, then I in turn/addendum hope that you can also downgrade it, so you aren't stuck in a superhuge ship eternally once you get to that level. :(
Maybe a system where you unlock upgrade component for ship customization all along the plot and being able to freely choose which to install when you want.
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heratik
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Post by heratik »

Chris0132 wrote: I'd just like some alternatives. Like buying half a dozen fighters, launching them from a small frigate, then going after the capship while it exchanges cinematic fire with my frigate, and there's lasers shooting everywhere, stuff exploding, ships on fire crashing into both ships, surface explosions, shield effects, turrets shooting streams of rounds across space, all that jazz.
Apart from the dramatic effects, that is no different from what you can do in TC, except in TC, if I want to fly that Frigate, or orchestrate that battle from my fighter whilst I dive in and out of the action......I CAN
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Post by Chris0132 »

That's a bit optimistic.

Flying a fighter in capital ship combat is suicide at worst, pointless at best. You can't achieve anything against the capital ship and the frigate will get vaporised in less than a minute, and if you catch a stray shot you're basically dead.

Having a more structured approach, where capital ships carry heavy firepower but are generally poor against smaller ships, and moreover can actually suffer damage because of sustained small ship action, that adds more roles for the player to take in the battles. Rather than just flying around in your boreas with 8xppc in the front turret and the rest covered in anti-fighter weaponry, you instead fly your corvette-ish style ship, and either run inteference to defend your ship from enemy fighters, blow up enemy fighters around their ship to allow your bombers to get close and blow up their subsystems, fly a bomber yourself to take out key subsystems, or take the X3 route and pack a tonne of PPC-equivalents onto your ship and just cruise slowly around while the turrets shoot indiscriminately at everything.

I think, however, that the 'fire repeatedly at the ship with PPCs' approach could use a nerf, and more interesting methods of blowing up capships should be brought into prominence, as I said capships firing at each other will frag each other in less than a minute, not much time for cinematic or engaging battles that way. It should take longer if you're going to use such a brute force method, but you can speed it up by using more in depth approaches like combined fighter/bomber/capship attacks.

This seems like what they're going for with the subsystems and not letting the player fly a capship, you can presumably deck out your personal ship with a capship-style weapon loadout, but it'd be like a frigate, not as powerful, so you're forced to explore other options to support your attack, not at all a bad thing if you ask me. It's like going from a game where only one unit is worth using, to a game where that unit is nerfed and now you have to find inventive ways to use the others along with it.
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Post by dougeye »

YOU WILL BE ABLE TO CONTROL MORE THAN ONE SHIP! "control" being the key word, yes your character is only ever actuallly sitting in one ship but you will be able to control ships of all classes (apart from caps) although ships as we know them from x3 x2 x1 are now called drones as i asume in terms of lore they are AI based. I also assume this means the use of Ai by the races has been increased. At this stage all you can realy do is wait for the game to be released, see what others have to say and make a decision as to whether you want to buy the game or not.

change, people are affraid of change, be affraid of change!!!! lol
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Post by plynak »

dougeye wrote: change, people are affraid of change, be affraid of change!!!! lol
Of course we are. Take a look at Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age 2. We were also promised a change. So yes, I am affraid and till I see demo, I am not touching Rebirth.
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Post by plynak »

dougeye wrote:YOU WILL BE ABLE TO CONTROL MORE THAN ONE SHIP! "control" being the key word, yes your character is only ever actuallly sitting in one ship but you will be able to control ships of all classes (apart from caps) although ships as we know them from x3 x2 x1 are now called drones as i asume in terms of lore they are AI based. I also assume this means the use of Ai by the races has been increased. At this stage all you can realy do is wait for the game to be released, see what others have to say and make a decision as to whether you want to buy the game or not.
BTW anyone remembers the game Independence War 1 and 2? There you have a module, which can dock with various ships. This is the approach I would like. Do I want a fast corvette? Undock and fly. Do I want a capital ship? Dock with the hull and have a big ship. But the idea of one ship doing it all is just bad.
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Post by dougeye »

I agree with dragon age 2 being a complete shambless " oh yes lets try and get the COD crowd with are awesome button!" lol

ME2 wasnt that bad realy, yes some of the combat was changed but i dont play Me2 fro the combat being an rpg geek lol

as far as rebirth is concerned fair enough if you want to wait for a demo. I would be the last person to chuck money at a game i dont realy like lol
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Post by Mightysword »

plynak wrote: 5) Umm, sorry, but a large target with vulnerable system is a contradiction. Why would anyone build a multimilion capital ship with a vulnerable system???
This, omg this. It may sound like a cool feature but it will be totally depended on how it's implemented. While I usually herald FS2 as the benchmark of space combat, I don't like how its sub system are implemented. Blast the weapon sub system (which is very easy to do) and a majestic capital ship become a sitting duck. So a cool feature or a lame gimmick, I hope for the former :shock:
Chris0132 wrote: What flying a capship was in X3 was necessary, because there wasn't really any other way to kill a bunch of enemy capital ships, you couldn't lead a daring fighter charge to hit the weak point, you just had to slowly drift around in your capship while the turrets shoot them up. Not really very action packed.
But what you are saying is like complaining "In order to eat I need a mouth, and that's not very exciting". You know ... you can try to eat through the nose ... dangerous but I reckon it would be exciting.

The point is a certain task should require certain amount of resource. That's not to say it does indeed possible to take out multiple capships with a fighter already in X and for me that's already bad enough, I don't want to see a gimmick to make it any easier. If you're into the God Protogonist thingy and see targets many time your size go down around you like flies I would recommend you to look at Japanese anime based game, I can even recommend some tittle to server your taste like various Gundam game or Project SYLPHEED. All those explosions look cool but sometime I wonder if all those big, expensive target are there just for the little craft the protag flying to blow up. I don't want those kind of thing in a Sim, even if it's only a half decent Sim, if X is still a Sim that is, unless they decide to go the arcade route. :wink:
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Post by dougeye »

yeah we dont want another Q situation were you can fly in behind its wing things and hold down fire until you kill it lol
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Post by Chris0132 »

Or equally look at fallout 3, portal 2, half life 2, call of duty 4, team fortress 2.

Change is not inherently bad, I don't see any reason for excessive pessimism, this is the same company who has been making X for a long time, I think at this point you can cut them a little slack.

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