Part three of Steam debate - split and archived.

General discussions about X Rebirth.

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Rabiator der II.
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Post by Rabiator der II. »

Slashman wrote: Wait...what are you actually comparing? There is no way that less is made with a purely digital copy at the same price point than is made with a physical copy. The retailer gets a cut in the case of a physical copy. In the case of a purely digital copy, there is no retailer or box to finance.
Sure, the digital copy is way cheaper to distribute. So someone makes more profit if the end user price is the same as for a physical copy.

But we don't know how this extra profit is shared between Valve, Deep Silver and Egosoft. Without knowing the numbers, all we can do is speculate :roll:
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Post by Slashman »

Rabiator der II. wrote:Sure, the digital copy is way cheaper to distribute. So someone makes more profit if the end user price is the same as for a physical copy.

But we don't know how this extra profit is shared between Valve, Deep Silver and Egosoft. Without knowing the numbers, all we can do is speculate :roll:
I agree. It's just that I'd be rather surprised if the extra didn't, in some capacity, reach Egosoft and Deepsilver more than Steam. If the bigger cut went to Steam, it would negate a huge part of the advantage of digital distribution.

As for the split between Deepsilver and Egosoft, we'll never know the specifics. But they've been publishing X games for a while, so I'm going to assume that Egosoft is happy with how they've worked out in the past, and are continuing the arrangement because they're the best choice for their product currently.
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the old one
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Post by the old one »

I am a little bewildered about the no steam patch egosoft is going to release.Egosoft say it is a one off thing for people withe poor internrt connection to run AP.Notice of the no steam patch came after the release aof AP which makes me wonder if sales fell below expections and to try and get people to use steam.Now when rebirth is released it will not have a no steam patch as egosoft that the ptch is a one off for AP,it makes me wonder what on earth is goig on,the old one :? :?
only steam i want is out of a kettle
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Post by NUKLEAR-SLUG »

apricotslice wrote:That being said, a lot of what was proposed as possible early in these threads, has proved to be the case. You can get someone else to get the game for you and copy it accross. You can run in offline mode with internet disabled.

It still gives us no clue as to what XR will be like, but, as my signature now shows, it wasnt game over after all. However, that is only because of the generosity and effort shown by a fan of my mods.

Thanks to those who posted the information I ended up using. It did prove useful.
Excellent. Now that you've discovered that what we've been telling you in the past was accurate perhaps you'll be a little more receptive to this notion. You were not 'hacked' because you'd installed Steam anymore than you were 'hacked' because you'd used MSN. Millions of people worldwide use both those programs daily without issue.

I don't doubt you had technical troubles tho but if you want to find the source of your problems I'd suggest you start by looking much closer to home. If you can't connect to the internet without getting issues then your machine is nowhere near as secure as you might like to think it is and if you're installing and running software given to you by a total stranger then your safe computing practices might need brushing up on.
David Howland wrote:Hi apricotslice,
Maybe the thief was ES or Steam pinching their gear back, they could not stand someone enjoying playing their games free of DRM domination?
Apricot received a USB key with data files on it. Those data files still needed to be authenticated with the Steam servers so no, at no point was there any DRM avoidance. I doubt Egosoft or Steam appreciate your implying they'd participate in that kind of activity so you might find it beneficial to understand how the system works if only for your personal edification.
the old one wrote:I am a little bewildered about the no steam patch egosoft is going to release.Egosoft say it is a one off thing for people withe poor internrt connection to run AP.Notice of the no steam patch came after the release aof AP which makes me wonder if sales fell below expections and to try and get people to use steam.Now when rebirth is released it will not have a no steam patch as egosoft that the ptch is a one off for AP,it makes me wonder what on earth is goig on,the old one :? :?
Egosofts current position last checked is that the AP no-Steam patch should be considered a one-off. They may release updates in future but have not guaranteed anything.
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Post by Nanook »

Slashman wrote:....
But what really puzzles me about all these knee-jerk defenses of Egosoft's choice of Steam only is why the 'Defenders of Steam' seem to feel threatened by it all. Do you think that if we 'non-Steam disbelievers' somehow, against all odds, managed to sway Egosoft to relent and give us a non-Steam version, that that would somehow negatively affect the Steam release? I just don't get all the antipathy being generated by the Steam faithful in these threads. I am awaiting enlightenment. :P
I'm not sure what exactly you're expecting, but I'm just finding the thread pretty interesting and at times amusing to follow. Unless it's suddenly become off-limits to general forum users without an agenda, then I'll probably continue to comment as long as I find something worthwhile to comment on. Was that enlightening? :D....
The first paragraph in my post above was directed at you. The second was a general observation/question to those who seem to be so disturbed at the idea of a non-Steam version that they feel they have to defend Egosoft/Steam at all costs. It was not directed at you specifically. Note the paragraph break. :wink:

But if you want to be included in that group, then that's your choice. :P
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Post by Nanook »

Slashman wrote:
Rabiator der II. wrote:Sure, the digital copy is way cheaper to distribute. So someone makes more profit if the end user price is the same as for a physical copy.

But we don't know how this extra profit is shared between Valve, Deep Silver and Egosoft. Without knowing the numbers, all we can do is speculate :roll:
I agree. It's just that I'd be rather surprised if the extra didn't, in some capacity, reach Egosoft and Deepsilver more than Steam. If the bigger cut went to Steam, it would negate a huge part of the advantage of digital distribution.

As for the split between Deepsilver and Egosoft, we'll never know the specifics. But they've been publishing X games for a while, so I'm going to assume that Egosoft is happy with how they've worked out in the past, and are continuing the arrangement because they're the best choice for their product currently.
The distribution path for the game is:

Egosoft -> Deepsilver -> retailer** -> gamer.

**In the past, this has been 'brick and mortar' shops plus internet shops like Amazon, etc. Now, it's Steam that's taken over this spot. So I doubt that Egosoft gets much, if any, more profit from the game than they did in the past. There are still the same number of middlemen involved. Show me where Egosoft's 'bigger piece of the pie' comes from.
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Post by Jumee »

Nanook wrote:The distribution path for the game is:

Egosoft -> Deepsilver -> retailer** -> gamer.

**In the past, this has been 'brick and mortar' shops plus internet shops like Amazon, etc. Now, it's Steam that's taken over this spot. So I doubt that Egosoft gets much, if any, more profit from the game than they did in the past. There are still the same number of middlemen involved. Show me where Egosoft's 'bigger piece of the pie' comes from.
I also doubt that they earn more per copy sold on steam compared to off steam copy, after all whats the difference between paying physical or "virtual" retailer
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Post by TTD »

**In the past, this has been 'brick and mortar' shops plus internet shops like Amazon, etc. Now, it's Steam that's taken over this spot. So I doubt that Egosoft gets much, if any, more profit from the game than they did in the past. There are still the same number of middlemen involved. Show me where Egosoft's 'bigger piece of the pie' comes from.
It was assumed that since the end product is digital download instead of physical disc and packaging,that Egosoft would have less expense and therefore more profit.

If Egosoft would not generate more sales by going digital only , there would not be much point in changing format if there was no financial gain in doing so.
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Post by TBV »

I imagine any extra profit is going to Deepsilver alone.

It is the publisher who is responsible for packaging the product and distributing it to the retailer.

Why would they give Egosoft a slice of any savings within the publishing costs?
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Post by Slashman »

TTD wrote:It was assumed that since the end product is digital download instead of physical disc and packaging,that Egosoft would have less expense and therefore more profit.

If Egosoft would not generate more sales by going digital only , there would not be much point in changing format if there was no financial gain in doing so.
I thought it would be pretty obvious myself. Its for that very reason that independent developers can flourish in a digital distribution environment. Boxes and disks cost money. So does box art and printed manuals.

Now with a publisher like Deepsilver involved, it is hard to say what the arrangement is. Some developer/publisher relationships are very loose and cover only marketing and physical distribution, others have the publisher actually helping to directly fund game development with the backing of investors etc.

If you take the time to read developer interviews, they often talk about shopping around to different publishers until they find one that suits their needs. Each relationship is unique, so I doubt we can say more than that money is saved with a digital sale. If Egosoft are in an arrangement where that doesn't equate to more profitability for them and it does for the publisher, then I'd say they are pretty dumb or desperate to adopt it.

Either way, it won't matter because the publisher's decision to distribute with Steamworks will still stand until/unless Egosoft thinks it's a bad idea.

They don't seem to think it's a bad idea...
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Post by Laden Swallow »

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/opinion- ... team/01887
Since 1997, when 1C’s gaming division was founded, the company worked on a model whereby a title developed and sold by 1C in Russia was then sub-licensed to our great publishing partners.

As a generalisation, retail would pay these guys a maximum of 40 per cent of what they made. So on a £29.99 game the publisher would receive about £12 (and on a sub-licensed deal, we would then only get about £4.25 of that) – minus return, write down and consignment costs.

When would we get that money? Well, payment would be by the end of the quarter.

So, let’s say £10 per unit sale goes to the publisher, £3 to the developer/sub-licensor, and it’s in your bank five months after the customer has paid out £30.

Compare that to the digital model. On a £29.99 sale, the digital partner will pay the publisher – or in many cases direct to the developer – between 60 and 70 per cent, by the end of the month following the sale.

Wow. To recap: on a sale over the counter today, we can have our £3 by the end of March, or on a digital sale, we can have £20 by Christmas.

Remind me why we should choose to go with retail and decline to let Steam sell the game?

The above has been posted 3 times now.

To spell it out, steam takes a smaller cut of the unit sale price.
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Post by Nanook »

Slashman wrote:
TTD wrote:It was assumed that since the end product is digital download instead of physical disc and packaging,that Egosoft would have less expense and therefore more profit.

If Egosoft would not generate more sales by going digital only , there would not be much point in changing format if there was no financial gain in doing so.
I thought it would be pretty obvious myself. Its for that very reason that independent developers can flourish in a digital distribution environment. Boxes and disks cost money. So does box art and printed manuals.....
Independent developers, yes. Those are the ones without publishers. They deal directly with Steam. Egosoft does not fall into that category. They have a publisher, who acts as the middleman between Egosoft and the retailer. So yes, it's obvious that there's probably no real savings being realized by Egosoft. The only way they'd get that is to ditch Deepsilver and 'go it alone' via Steam.

The advantages to Egosoft are provided by -

a) exposure to a wider audience, and
b) single patch, distributed via Steam.

I don't see the additional profit to Egosoft, other than indirectly due to the above two items, by going digital download only. Which probably isn't the case, anyway, as I'm sure there will be boxed copies produced, too. I highly doubt Rebirth will be download-only. Steam-only ≠ download only. That's a common fallacy.
Slashman wrote:... If Egosoft are in an arrangement where that doesn't equate to more profitability for them and it does for the publisher, then I'd say they are pretty dumb or desperate to adopt it...
The latter. I recall when X2 was being developed, Egosoft had a very difficult time finding a publisher, until almost at the last minute, they got Deepsilver (and Enlight in the US). And from the threads I remember reading on the topic way back then, yes, they were quite desperate and didn't have much choice as to publisher. So I'd guess that whatever Deepsilver wants, Deepsilver gets. Niche games like the X series don't have a lot of options.
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Post by Slashman »

Nanook wrote:The latter. I recall when X2 was being developed, Egosoft had a very difficult time finding a publisher, until almost at the last minute, they got Deepsilver (and Enlight in the US). And from the threads I remember reading on the topic way back then, yes, they were quite desperate and didn't have much choice as to publisher. So I'd guess that whatever Deepsilver wants, Deepsilver gets. Niche games like the X series don't have a lot of options.
Except that these days, that's not actually true. Egosoft could go independent and self publish via Steam(totally digital). Lots of successful niche developers have. They could then wait and put out boxed versions later if they so chose.

Of course, you wouldn't like that option either. :P
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Rabiator der II.
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Post by Rabiator der II. »

Nanook wrote: The distribution path for the game is:

Egosoft -> Deepsilver -> retailer** -> gamer.

**In the past, this has been 'brick and mortar' shops plus internet shops like Amazon, etc. Now, it's Steam that's taken over this spot. So I doubt that Egosoft gets much, if any, more profit from the game than they did in the past. There are still the same number of middlemen involved. Show me where Egosoft's 'bigger piece of the pie' comes from.
It will depend on what Egosoft can negotiate, and I suspect it might not be that much. Lets speculate...

I think we can assume that Valve (as owner of Steam) has less operating costs when distributing a game than 'brick and mortar' shops. And that Valve would just LOVE to pocket the difference as extra profit :wink: . That is what we can be reasonably sure about.

Now I guess (first level of speculation) that they offered Deep Silver something to make them adopt Steam. Maybe, but not certainly, that includes a 'bigger piece of the pie'.

If we assume that it does (second level of speculation), it is still not a given that Egosoft gets some of that extra money. And thus, I arrive at the same conclusion as Nanook in his post from Thu, 8. Mar 12, 22:12 :sceptic:
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Post by Mightysword »

Slashman wrote:Except that these days, that's not actually true. Egosoft could go independent and self publish via Steam(totally digital).
You're a bit too optimistic on that front. Most of the independent developers you see on Steam are start up companies which just a few people, and their games are simple. Yes, some are quite innovacative, but they're simple and low level for the most part.

While Egosoft is making a niche game, that doesn't mean their type of game are cheap to make. I don't say they're measured up to the industry AAA in term of cost, but you can be sure it's a much more expensive projects than most of the "indie" you know.
Lots of successful niche developers have.
Name me a few, since I can't remember any. In fact, most are the opposite.

- Bungie broke off with MS after Halo 3 because they have secure so much money and can stand on their own.
- Kerboros was independent, but later have to go to Paradox.
- Talesworld was independent, but also have to go to Paradox.
- Most of the current indie I know of have always been indies.


Publisher does more than just advertise and sell the game, for the most part they have to bankroll the developers during their development cycle. That's why they tend to get a big share, and usually, rightly so in a business sense. Tell me, will you bankrolling a project (at the risk of losing it) for only a kitty share?

This is just my conjecture, but while I don't think Egosoft have to sleep on their next meal, their profit are probably enough to cover their cost with a little extra. I doubt they're in a position where they can go independent.
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Post by Nanook »

Rabiator der II. wrote:...
I think we can assume that Valve (as owner of Steam) has less operating costs when distributing a game than 'brick and mortar' shops. ...
I'm not so sure. Valve/Steam has to maintain a huge server farm(s), 24/7 accessibility with ultra high speed internet access, patching, tech support and sundry other internet services, that a storefront retailer wouldn't. And those are not cheap, by any measure.
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Post by NUKLEAR-SLUG »

TBV wrote:I imagine any extra profit is going to Deepsilver alone.

It is the publisher who is responsible for packaging the product and distributing it to the retailer.

Why would they give Egosoft a slice of any savings within the publishing costs?
You're making the assumption there that Deepsilver are paying Egosoft a fixed amount per copy sold. If in fact they were paying Egosoft a percentage of sales then the saving that Deepsilver make retailing on Steam would translate into a greater profit per copy for Deepsilver which in turn would result in a greater profit per copy for Egosoft.

So yes, Egosoft would be making more money.
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Post by Mightysword »

Nanook wrote:
I'm not so sure. Valve/Steam has to maintain a huge server farm(s), 24/7 accessibility with ultra high speed internet access, patching, tech support and sundry other internet services, that a storefront retailer wouldn't. And those are not cheap, by any measure.

Cheap is a relative term, as in comparing to what. Brick and mortal store also have a their costs like rent/transport/staffs. The point is the volumn they can server. Steam is a world-wide distributor, so let say if you adds the cost of every single EBgame/gamestop on the world and the money they have to pay for shipping/estate/staffs, I imagine it will be much higher than what Steam has to pay.


And this is not limited to Steam or online distribution. It's true every where. Traditional retailers have been losing ground to online retailers at so fast at a pace that big names only take a few years to fall. Sure, Amazon invested a gigantic fortune into their infrastructure (theirs is one of the only few servers in the world that can not be targeted by DoS attack, simply because it's too freaking big), and employed legion of workers. But, to server the same volume of customer they do as a traditional retailers, the cost would be of magnitude higher. :wink:
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Post by Slashman »

Mightysword wrote:Name me a few, since I can't remember any. In fact, most are the opposite.
Would CD Projekt count? They started the Witcher under Atari, but they are listed as the publishers for The Witcher 2.

Also, Iron Lore Studios(creators of Titan Quest) was under THQ...they have reopened under a new name with the same people and are working on a new hack/slash RPG. Grim Dawn, I think it's called.

Hmmm...CCP started EVE Online under a publisher I think and split mid development(then they practically ran out of money). They then went on to self-distribute and publish EVE on their own...and it became the biggest space-flight/sci-fi MMO currently on the market.

Flying Wild Hog are a dev team with members that broke off from CD Projekt and created Hard Reset sans publisher. Hmmm...maybe not quite the same, but not so far off the mark.

Well...maybe they aren't many dev teams that broke from publishers and became indies...but they are several very successful indies. It might just mean that dev teams under publishers generally prefer to stick with them because its less risky to use someone else's money to build a game.
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Post by Rednoahl »

Slashman wrote:
Mightysword wrote:Name me a few, since I can't remember any. In fact, most are the opposite.
Well...maybe they aren't many dev teams that broke from publishers and became indies...but they are several very successful indies. It might just mean that dev teams under publishers generally prefer to stick with them because its less risky to use someone else's money to build a game.
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