What the Steam camp is afraid of, is the dual patch release of the past. The Steam patch trailed the non-Steam patch by a good 2-3 days. (Steam does not work on weekends, and Ego released the patch on Friday, etc....)TTD wrote:And this is where I agree with you.But what really puzzles me about all these knee-jerk defenses of Egosoft's choice of Steam only is why the 'Defenders of Steam' seem to feel threatened by it all. Do you think that if we 'non-Steam disbelievers' somehow, against all odds, managed to sway Egosoft to relent and give us a non-Steam version, that that would somehow negatively affect the Steam release? I just don't get all the antipathy being generated by the Steam faithful in these threads. I am awaiting enlightenment.
The only way pro-Steam supporters would lose to non-Steam supporters is if Egosoft decided to ditch Steam.
But since Egosoft has paddled in the water,I do not see them stepping out any time soon.
I still feel that the dual option ,as in TC and Superbox was the best move and a good compromise to keep both camps happy.
Part three of Steam debate - split and archived.
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That did annoy quite a few but with everyone with Rebirth on Steam that should solve there problems.VincentTH wrote:What the Steam camp is afraid of, is the dual patch release of the past. The Steam patch trailed the non-Steam patch by a good 2-3 days. (Steam does not work on weekends, and Ego released the patch on Friday, etc....)TTD wrote:And this is where I agree with you.But what really puzzles me about all these knee-jerk defenses of Egosoft's choice of Steam only is why the 'Defenders of Steam' seem to feel threatened by it all. Do you think that if we 'non-Steam disbelievers' somehow, against all odds, managed to sway Egosoft to relent and give us a non-Steam version, that that would somehow negatively affect the Steam release? I just don't get all the antipathy being generated by the Steam faithful in these threads. I am awaiting enlightenment.
The only way pro-Steam supporters would lose to non-Steam supporters is if Egosoft decided to ditch Steam.
But since Egosoft has paddled in the water,I do not see them stepping out any time soon.
I still feel that the dual option ,as in TC and Superbox was the best move and a good compromise to keep both camps happy.
I wonder if the Pc Steam version will be ahead or behind the Steam Box

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if AP is any indication, the non-Steam patch will be weeks behind the Steam patch. I can live with that, as long as there is a non-Steam version.Nova Scotia wrote:That did annoy quite a few but with everyone with Rebirth on Steam that should solve there problems.VincentTH wrote:What the Steam camp is afraid of, is the dual patch release of the past. The Steam patch trailed the non-Steam patch by a good 2-3 days. (Steam does not work on weekends, and Ego released the patch on Friday, etc....)TTD wrote:And this is where I agree with you.But what really puzzles me about all these knee-jerk defenses of Egosoft's choice of Steam only is why the 'Defenders of Steam' seem to feel threatened by it all. Do you think that if we 'non-Steam disbelievers' somehow, against all odds, managed to sway Egosoft to relent and give us a non-Steam version, that that would somehow negatively affect the Steam release? I just don't get all the antipathy being generated by the Steam faithful in these threads. I am awaiting enlightenment.
The only way pro-Steam supporters would lose to non-Steam supporters is if Egosoft decided to ditch Steam.
But since Egosoft has paddled in the water,I do not see them stepping out any time soon.
I still feel that the dual option ,as in TC and Superbox was the best move and a good compromise to keep both camps happy.
I wonder if the Pc Steam version will be ahead or behind the Steam Box
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Egosoft have already said to not count on there being a Steam-free patch made available for Rebirth. And it is probably Deepsilver that is pushing that decision. Actually it is the almighty dollar, euro, yen, pound or what ever you want to call it, the end result is still the same.
Which is why I have decided that my last game from them will be X3AP.
If it had not been for the Steam-free patch, then X3TC would have been my last purchase.
If I could get a broadband connection my decision might be different. But, I have tried gaming with Steam and a dial-up connection and I find it just adds to much inconvenience to actually be enjoyable. And what is the point of gaming if it is NOT enjoyable. Fussing with Steam and a slow connection just is not worth the effort. I will just stick to the Steam free games I have and mod them.
Which is why I have decided that my last game from them will be X3AP.
If it had not been for the Steam-free patch, then X3TC would have been my last purchase.
If I could get a broadband connection my decision might be different. But, I have tried gaming with Steam and a dial-up connection and I find it just adds to much inconvenience to actually be enjoyable. And what is the point of gaming if it is NOT enjoyable. Fussing with Steam and a slow connection just is not worth the effort. I will just stick to the Steam free games I have and mod them.
My mods for X3TC & X3AP
Been with the X-series from the beginning. If it happens in the X_Universe I've been there done that several times over.
Been with the X-series from the beginning. If it happens in the X_Universe I've been there done that several times over.
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I was replying to your quote as you were responding to TTD. He said that he heard that the DVD earnings on first release are less than what Egosoft gets from Steam. That's why I asked what exactly you were comparing. Because he never specified if he was talking about a Steam DVD or non-Steam DVD(although I should have assumed he meant that). When I said a physical box plus Steam, I was more referring to a physical DVD sale with Steamworks, and comparing that to a standard release without it.Nanook wrote:And just what part of "Bottom line, Steam + non-Steam versions >> just Steam versions" was unclear? Note the '+' sign.
Well you can roll your eyes all you want, but I never made any comment either way about choice. I understand that you want one, but I wasn't actually addressing that when I replied.And just what part of the word "choice" did you not get, as in a game buyer's choice? This issue has always been, and probably always will be, about offering the gamer a choice in how they purchase the game. It's never been about only one way or the other.
I'm not sure what exactly you're expecting, but I'm just finding the thread pretty interesting and at times amusing to follow. Unless it's suddenly become off-limits to general forum users without an agenda, then I'll probably continue to comment as long as I find something worthwhile to comment on. Was that enlightening?But what really puzzles me about all these knee-jerk defenses of Egosoft's choice of Steam only is why the 'Defenders of Steam' seem to feel threatened by it all. Do you think that if we 'non-Steam disbelievers' somehow, against all odds, managed to sway Egosoft to relent and give us a non-Steam version, that that would somehow negatively affect the Steam release? I just don't get all the antipathy being generated by the Steam faithful in these threads. I am awaiting enlightenment.

P.S. Why is there no buddha icon? Oh wait...Goners might count!

If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.
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Ah, you've rumbled us! That's what it is all right, we're all mortally terrified that we might have to wait a whole 48 hours for a patch..VincentTH wrote:What the Steam camp is afraid of, is the dual patch release of the past. The Steam patch trailed the non-Steam patch by a good 2-3 days. (Steam does not work on weekends, and Ego released the patch on Friday, etc....)
I commend you on your deep insight..

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Well, I'm back.
One of my mod fans, bought me AP, and sent it to me on a 16gb stick, so I could port my AMS mod to AP.
So I've now had some experience with steam.
My observations :
The suggestion that you could get someone else to download the game, and you could copy it to your PC without problems, proved to be true for AP. Given that the entire download was nearly 9gb, and I have a 5gb monthly limit, this proved the only way I could get the game. And I was surprised to see it worked. Hopefully XR will be the same.
Offline mode for steam does work for AP. As claimed. And this can be done either while online, or steam will recognise there is no net connection and ask if you want offline mode. No repercussions so far, but its only been less than 2 weeks and I did need to go online once during that time.
AP is considered by Kaspersky as a medium risk of allowing hackers access to the computer. I noticed this after my computer had been hacked. Someone got through my firewall while AP was running, disabled Kaspersky, deleted 1 of each version of my mods in 3 different places so I no longer had a usable cat/dat pair, and deleted one of the cat/dat pair for the last patch in the TC folder. At which point the game froze on me. It took me 2 days to get the computer to reboot into windows properly and several hours more to repair Kaspersky and damage done. Thread in Off topic on this.
Hence, one of my concerns about steam have been vindicated the hard way. Fortunately, I used my old games computer and having it hacked wasnt that big a deal. But it seems that steam/AP has an open hole through firewalls that anyone with the know how can exploit.
Comment on AP :
In my opinion, there is not enough new content to warrant this being released as a new game. It should have been released as a free patch to TC. The plot was a huge disappointment. It ended just as things were getting interesting and imo, should have been twice as long at least.
The whole argument about charging for additions to a program is aptly demonstrated. The plot for AP is the size and nature of a TC patch plot, but its been marketed as a new game. Just shows the progression of things and the influence of steam.
TC now has the ability to go on indefinitely. All they have to do is keep releasing a "new" game which goes in as a new patch in the addon folder with a new exe with a new plot, and they can charge another $19.95 for it. Where once, they just released a free patch.
I'd like to see some serious extension of the AP plot in patches, but I'm not going to pay for them !
AP was very unstable, and crashed regularly, where TC was completely stable on the same computer. It took a tech support thread and the removal of quite a few programs and driver updates I didnt know existed (not manufacturer ones), to get AP stable. However, the programs removed would not have been, had this been my main computer. AP would have been discarded first.
The way steam patches has required a new documentation thread, since it overrides the 02 patch every time. So in order to know what has changed in a patch, its necessary to keep extracted copies of everything in separate folders, so that when a new patch happens, you can directly compare what has changed. Modding necessity. And before I started that thread, the question had been asked as to what changed for v2. Thankfully, I'd had a copy of 1.1 that I could extract and compare with. It adds an extra step to modding for patches, but at least if one is archiving each patch, it can be done.
Updated Stance on Steam :
I continue to NOT like it.
It has nothing else I want. The achievements for example are a bad joke, imo. If someone hadnt given me AP, I wouldnt have got it.
It IS a security risk. I recommend that the internet be completely disabled on the computer you run a steam program on. Run the game in offline mode, or not at all. Go online only after a patch has been released, long enough to download and instal the patch, then exit out and go offline again without running the game in online mode. A lot of people will disagree, but I got hacked within a week of putting steam on the computer, after years of no problems since I first put Kaspersky on, and I dont take that as a good sign. Steam opens a vulnerable hole through firewalls. Thats BAD. Doesnt matter if its bad coding by egosoft, its steam that bares the blame for the security vulnerability.
I will accept XR on steam, as long as :
* I dont have to download anything except patches. There is no way I will/can download multi-gb downloads. If I can buy a disc version from my retailer or order it from Egosoft, I will, as long as the patching for it isnt more than a few hundred mb.
* As long as offline mode with disabled internet works with no problems.
* As long as my next oldest computer will meet the specs to run XR.
I will NOT put steam on my normal use computer under any circumstances. My stance on that hasnt changed. Its like installing an unexploded bomb, imo.
Its been an interesting exercise, and those suggesting I needed to try it, have proved right, I did need to. Getting hacked wasnt on my adjenda, but it was a learning curve for steam. My caution level has gone up significantly with experience, from "considerable caution" to "significant paranoia".
That being said, a lot of what was proposed as possible early in these threads, has proved to be the case. You can get someone else to get the game for you and copy it accross. You can run in offline mode with internet disabled.
It still gives us no clue as to what XR will be like, but, as my signature now shows, it wasnt game over after all. However, that is only because of the generosity and effort shown by a fan of my mods.
Thanks to those who posted the information I ended up using. It did prove useful.
One of my mod fans, bought me AP, and sent it to me on a 16gb stick, so I could port my AMS mod to AP.
So I've now had some experience with steam.
My observations :
The suggestion that you could get someone else to download the game, and you could copy it to your PC without problems, proved to be true for AP. Given that the entire download was nearly 9gb, and I have a 5gb monthly limit, this proved the only way I could get the game. And I was surprised to see it worked. Hopefully XR will be the same.
Offline mode for steam does work for AP. As claimed. And this can be done either while online, or steam will recognise there is no net connection and ask if you want offline mode. No repercussions so far, but its only been less than 2 weeks and I did need to go online once during that time.
AP is considered by Kaspersky as a medium risk of allowing hackers access to the computer. I noticed this after my computer had been hacked. Someone got through my firewall while AP was running, disabled Kaspersky, deleted 1 of each version of my mods in 3 different places so I no longer had a usable cat/dat pair, and deleted one of the cat/dat pair for the last patch in the TC folder. At which point the game froze on me. It took me 2 days to get the computer to reboot into windows properly and several hours more to repair Kaspersky and damage done. Thread in Off topic on this.
Hence, one of my concerns about steam have been vindicated the hard way. Fortunately, I used my old games computer and having it hacked wasnt that big a deal. But it seems that steam/AP has an open hole through firewalls that anyone with the know how can exploit.
Comment on AP :
In my opinion, there is not enough new content to warrant this being released as a new game. It should have been released as a free patch to TC. The plot was a huge disappointment. It ended just as things were getting interesting and imo, should have been twice as long at least.
The whole argument about charging for additions to a program is aptly demonstrated. The plot for AP is the size and nature of a TC patch plot, but its been marketed as a new game. Just shows the progression of things and the influence of steam.
TC now has the ability to go on indefinitely. All they have to do is keep releasing a "new" game which goes in as a new patch in the addon folder with a new exe with a new plot, and they can charge another $19.95 for it. Where once, they just released a free patch.
I'd like to see some serious extension of the AP plot in patches, but I'm not going to pay for them !
AP was very unstable, and crashed regularly, where TC was completely stable on the same computer. It took a tech support thread and the removal of quite a few programs and driver updates I didnt know existed (not manufacturer ones), to get AP stable. However, the programs removed would not have been, had this been my main computer. AP would have been discarded first.
The way steam patches has required a new documentation thread, since it overrides the 02 patch every time. So in order to know what has changed in a patch, its necessary to keep extracted copies of everything in separate folders, so that when a new patch happens, you can directly compare what has changed. Modding necessity. And before I started that thread, the question had been asked as to what changed for v2. Thankfully, I'd had a copy of 1.1 that I could extract and compare with. It adds an extra step to modding for patches, but at least if one is archiving each patch, it can be done.
Updated Stance on Steam :
I continue to NOT like it.
It has nothing else I want. The achievements for example are a bad joke, imo. If someone hadnt given me AP, I wouldnt have got it.
It IS a security risk. I recommend that the internet be completely disabled on the computer you run a steam program on. Run the game in offline mode, or not at all. Go online only after a patch has been released, long enough to download and instal the patch, then exit out and go offline again without running the game in online mode. A lot of people will disagree, but I got hacked within a week of putting steam on the computer, after years of no problems since I first put Kaspersky on, and I dont take that as a good sign. Steam opens a vulnerable hole through firewalls. Thats BAD. Doesnt matter if its bad coding by egosoft, its steam that bares the blame for the security vulnerability.
I will accept XR on steam, as long as :
* I dont have to download anything except patches. There is no way I will/can download multi-gb downloads. If I can buy a disc version from my retailer or order it from Egosoft, I will, as long as the patching for it isnt more than a few hundred mb.
* As long as offline mode with disabled internet works with no problems.
* As long as my next oldest computer will meet the specs to run XR.
I will NOT put steam on my normal use computer under any circumstances. My stance on that hasnt changed. Its like installing an unexploded bomb, imo.
Its been an interesting exercise, and those suggesting I needed to try it, have proved right, I did need to. Getting hacked wasnt on my adjenda, but it was a learning curve for steam. My caution level has gone up significantly with experience, from "considerable caution" to "significant paranoia".

That being said, a lot of what was proposed as possible early in these threads, has proved to be the case. You can get someone else to get the game for you and copy it accross. You can run in offline mode with internet disabled.
It still gives us no clue as to what XR will be like, but, as my signature now shows, it wasnt game over after all. However, that is only because of the generosity and effort shown by a fan of my mods.
Thanks to those who posted the information I ended up using. It did prove useful.
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To be quite frank, if Steam allowed such invasive security breaches to occur on a regular basis, you'd think a lot more people would be upset. And please, don't give the nonsense about "Steam users are technologically illiterate", I run regular on-boot virus/malware sweeps and have yet to have had a virus rootkit or infected driver appear, and I haven't had files go missing randomly. I can't imagine I'm the only competent person who uses Steam, and like I said, if Steam were as much of a threat as you suggest, how is it that millions of people worldwide use it daily, without "completely disabling the internet", and somehow don't have crippling hacks appear?apricotslice wrote:snipped
"Steam opens a vulnerable hole through firewalls" -- if you were as familiar with modern networking as you suggest, you'd realize that damned near every program opens up potential gates for attackers.
I don't see why it makes me "Steam Defense Force" to suggest that Steam is anything other than a virus-installing, bandwidth-hogging, privacy-invading Big Brother program.
EDIT: Wait, so someone hacked your computer for the specific purpose of deleting some game files you were using? That sounds very... contrived. What a perfect illustration of Steam's vulnerability, dare to play games online and some hacker will delete your game files just to f- with you.
Can't say I've ever had someone pull the same stunt for me. And to add to my point above, if spontaneously deleted game files were a regular issue, Valve would not still be in business right now.
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[ external image ]apricotslice wrote:I will accept XR on steam...
Seriously though, I'm glad you found at least something of a workable solution.
This is already standard procedure for a lot of AP players running mods, regardless of their internet connection or security issues.apricotslice wrote:Run the game in offline mode, or not at all. Go online only after a patch has been released, long enough to download and instal the patch, then exit out and go offline again without running the game in online mode.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
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Yes, I've noticed that from Kaspersky reports. I dont use msn for the reason that I've been hacked through that as well. I dont use IE because of its reputation as the worst of the browsers security wise. All the browsers and mail programs are listed as vulnerable. Not much option if you want to communicate. But I use those with the best reputation.angrytigerp wrote:"Steam opens a vulnerable hole through firewalls" -- if you were as familiar with modern networking as you suggest, you'd realize that damned near every program opens up potential gates for attackers.
My point though, is that this is a GAME. It shouldnt need the internet, shouldnt be accessing the internet, and thus shouldnt be a vulnerability to the internet. Saying 'well so many other programs are too', is just a cop out.
I want a stand alone game. There are no security issues with stand alone games.
Nicely said. Got to keep that for future use. lmaoto suggest that Steam is anything other than a virus-installing, bandwidth-hogging, privacy-invading Big Brother program.
Well it happened. Just because it happened to me, and few others, does that make me "lucky" ?EDIT: Wait, so someone hacked your computer for the specific purpose of deleting some game files you were using? That sounds very... contrived. What a perfect illustration of Steam's vulnerability, dare to play games online and some hacker will delete your game files just to f- with you.
You can be as sceptical as you like, but I'm not bullsh*tting about it.
btw, not "using", "making". They deleted the mod I was in the progress of developing, one file of each version. That implies deliberate targetting.
So I suspect it was someone who doesnt like my mod, or doesnt like me, and saw I was active here again. Hey, lets get real paranoid and wonder if it was someone from this thread I managed to p*ss off before, who saw I was actively modding again. Yeah, I'll be paranoid and think that. lol. *sigh* Who cares who it was, it happened. Dont accept that if you dont want to.
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It's possible that the USB storage device you inserted into your system could have provided the security hole. It was supplied by someone who not only knows that you mod, but might possibly guess at what files you might have been using based on your previous work. Maybe this person grabbed a copy of the files then deleted them, and will be releasing their own, and suspiciously similar, mod soon.
I'm sure you scanned the device before you accessed it, but there is potential for something to run before that scan can take place, and the scanning software only detects what it's programmed to detect and might miss something custom made, especially if you're using a free version.
Perhaps your "mod fan" isn't as much of a fan as you'd like to think.
I'm sure you scanned the device before you accessed it, but there is potential for something to run before that scan can take place, and the scanning software only detects what it's programmed to detect and might miss something custom made, especially if you're using a free version.
Perhaps your "mod fan" isn't as much of a fan as you'd like to think.
Gaming PC: Gigabyte H270M-D3H | i7 7700 | 16Gb DDR4 | Gigabyte GTX1060 6Gb OC | Asus Xonar DGX | Window 10 Home 64bit | Samsung 256Gb SSD
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LMAO !strude wrote:It's possible that the USB storage device you inserted into your system could have provided the security hole. It was supplied by someone who not only knows that you mod, but might possibly guess at what files you might have been using based on your previous work. Maybe this person grabbed a copy of the files then deleted them, and will be releasing their own, and suspiciously similar, mod soon.
I'm sure you scanned the device before you accessed it, but there is potential for something to run before that scan can take place, and the scanning software only detects what it's programmed to detect and might miss something custom made, especially if you're using a free version.
Perhaps your "mod fan" isn't as much of a fan as you'd like to think.

That takes paranoia to a whole new level.

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So you didn't check the device for malicious software from your "mod fan"? I thought you were concerned with security?apricotslice wrote:And obviously you, since I'd have never thought of that.strude wrote:If anyone would know, it's you.apricotslice wrote:That takes paranoia to a whole new level.
Gaming PC: Gigabyte H270M-D3H | i7 7700 | 16Gb DDR4 | Gigabyte GTX1060 6Gb OC | Asus Xonar DGX | Window 10 Home 64bit | Samsung 256Gb SSD
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Many,many years ago,before I learned about viruses and anti malware software etc, I got my first ever virus.
Every time I booted up,random files would be removed until the day I tried to boot up and I couldn't.
When I was told what had actually happened , I could not believe that someone would actually have such a twisted mind to try and cause havoc to everyday users of their PCs.
Since then I have tested many AV softwares etc,both paid for and free.
The best combination of free security has been
AVG Free (beware,there are false,real virus version of this.Make sure you download from the official site !).
Zone Alarm Free (for Firewall)
Spybot Search and Destroy for anti-spyware etc.
I may have listed these above,somewhere or in another thread,but it's here for anyone who missed it.
I am now using Windows MSE and the W7 firewall and SB.S/D for over a year without a problem.
Every time I booted up,random files would be removed until the day I tried to boot up and I couldn't.
When I was told what had actually happened , I could not believe that someone would actually have such a twisted mind to try and cause havoc to everyday users of their PCs.
Since then I have tested many AV softwares etc,both paid for and free.
The best combination of free security has been
AVG Free (beware,there are false,real virus version of this.Make sure you download from the official site !).
Zone Alarm Free (for Firewall)
Spybot Search and Destroy for anti-spyware etc.
I may have listed these above,somewhere or in another thread,but it's here for anyone who missed it.
I am now using Windows MSE and the W7 firewall and SB.S/D for over a year without a problem.
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Stealing Back?
Hi apricotslice,
Maybe the thief was ES or Steam pinching their gear back, they could not stand someone enjoying playing their games free of DRM domination?
Also Alan we cannot take this security discussion elsewhere as Steam is part of it and you do not allow mention of it elsewhere, as ridiculous as this is, it is not of our making. Just as me having to ask AP questions in RB forum because it is exclusive Steam release! The sooner there is a Steam thread on every forum the better, Of course open discussion on DRM, which is now an integral part X would be the best option!
<How is discussion of different AV softwares and varying personal security practices possibly relevant to whether others would use Steam for Rebirth? If you wish to debate a Moderator's actions or interpretation of the Forum rules and constraints then please do so by PM. Alan Phipps>
Maybe the thief was ES or Steam pinching their gear back, they could not stand someone enjoying playing their games free of DRM domination?
Also Alan we cannot take this security discussion elsewhere as Steam is part of it and you do not allow mention of it elsewhere, as ridiculous as this is, it is not of our making. Just as me having to ask AP questions in RB forum because it is exclusive Steam release! The sooner there is a Steam thread on every forum the better, Of course open discussion on DRM, which is now an integral part X would be the best option!
<How is discussion of different AV softwares and varying personal security practices possibly relevant to whether others would use Steam for Rebirth? If you wish to debate a Moderator's actions or interpretation of the Forum rules and constraints then please do so by PM. Alan Phipps>
The BANISHED RETURNS.
HEALTH WARNING! Steam Damages Freedom Of Speech!
Congratulations Egosoft on increasing memory usage from 2 to 3 Gb.
Bin playing X too long when Egosoft refuses to sell you their latest game?
The only steam I want is in my kettle! STEAM=GAME OVER.
HEALTH WARNING! Steam Damages Freedom Of Speech!
Congratulations Egosoft on increasing memory usage from 2 to 3 Gb.
Bin playing X too long when Egosoft refuses to sell you their latest game?
The only steam I want is in my kettle! STEAM=GAME OVER.