Part three of Steam debate - split and archived.

General discussions about X Rebirth.

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NUKLEAR-SLUG
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Post by NUKLEAR-SLUG »

thetack wrote:so from what you are saying slashman the people on this forum the ones who have stood by Ego since X2 in my case, earlier for others, have helped out noobs, have suggested improvments, and have bought everything that Ego have released veiws are of no importance to the developers, with casual gamers who pick up play and drop beign more important, that to me seems the way to beign just another s**t games developer with a poor scence of its future and past.
No, that's not what Slashman is saying. He's saying that just because you happen to have been around since the year dot does not in any way make your opinion or custom any more valuable compared to anyone else, much as some would like to think otherwise.

At the end of the day you are still just one customer. If Egosoft make a business decision that alienates one customer that results in three new ones then from their point of view that's a success. Obviously they'd like to have your custom as well, but you can't please everybody all the time.
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Post by Slashman »

thetack wrote:so from what you are saying slashman the people on this forum the ones who have stood by Ego since X2 in my case, earlier for others, have helped out noobs, have suggested improvments, and have bought everything that Ego have released veiws are of no importance to the developers, with casual gamers who pick up play and drop beign more important, that to me seems the way to beign just another s**t games developer with a poor scence of its future and past.
That's not what I'm saying at all.

I've been in a similar situation with other games. Where I have disliked changes that were being proposed and there was a massive outcry on the game forum predicting loss of revenue and the death of the game etc.

A developer actually took the time to come to the forum in one case, and explain that, contrary to what we might think as the 'stalwarts' of x or y game, a company cannot afford to make critical decisions based solely on feedback from forum members.

We don't play the game like 'normal' people do. We push the limits of the mechanics. We do things that normal players don't think about. We crunch numbers that the average player doesn't care about. That's why we spend so much time on the forums. We spend more time with the game, and invest more of our time with the game, but we don't represent the majority or the standard demographic for the game in most cases.

The bulk of people who play a game don't post on the game's forums. Most of the people who play X probably never visit these boards, and if they did, don't spend a lot of time here.

Having a dedicated community is important for any game, but a game company cannot afford to let that community dictate critical business decisions based only on 'strong feelings'.

If you had a guy that never contributed on these forums, never asked for help here, never offered any help or feedback and simply bought each X game and played it until he was bored(maybe spent less than 20 hours on each game) and moved on, you'd probably say he wasn't all that important. He's not a true Egosoft fan and he contributed nothing to the community.

Except that guy bought all the X games (same as you) and spent his money with Egosoft(same as you). And there are 20 or 30(just a meaningless estimate for the sake of argument) times more of his kind, than there are of the stalwart and dedicated forum members. Now what happens when Egosoft/Deepsilver have to make a decision about their business? Can they afford to only consider the small and dedicated community? Should they?

It's because we are closer to the developers and communicate with them much more than the faceless pick up and play guy, that we assume that we should matter more. If Egosoft was a corner shop in a small, rural community, then we'd have a valid point. Their business would rise or fall based on our support. But they sell their games to a lot of people worldwide and they want to sell to more people than they have been.

I've been listening to a lot of the interviews that Bernd has been having. And they all say the same thing, they don't want the X games to simply be a niche. They believe(whether you think they are right or wrong), that the space sim genre can be a compelling experience for a much larger audience than it has been over the last 5 or 10 years.
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Post by TBV »

Slashman wrote:It's because we are closer to the developers and communicate with them much more than the faceless pick up and play guy, that we assume that we should matter more.
It's not that we think we matter more, just that it stings more because we do actually care.
thetack
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Post by thetack »

to be a compelling experiance for more people, i read dumb down make simplistic ,make easier so make a mainstream pile of s**t.
therefore get rid of the old players who think and care and get button punching neandatals
i see the buisness plan

by the way i dont blame bernd and proberly it is the future for Ego but as TBV says it stings because some of us have put a lot of our free time into the game and the forum and done a lot to encourage others to look past the WTF part of the game and open their minds. :(

i could live with the dumbing down and making easier because our mods will make the game work later but i have technical, legal and moral reasons not to use steam and so will leave the future to you slashman ,nuclear and others and duck out of the x searies, thanking bernd for some great gaming hours.
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TTD
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Post by TTD »

Ego have not lost me as a game player.
I will continue to play the current crop of games and add mods to them etc.

But I do not see myself paying full price for any future Games from Ego.

Yes it has been said that Ego's share of the DVD price upon first release is probably far less than they get from Steam, so me and those like me,won't make much difference.

Except for the fact that Ego will have to wait for my contribution.

I do see the benefit of Steam introducing the X games to many who have never heard of it before.Hopefully ,for Egosoft,there will be more new purchasers than the number of of players who refuse to buy any more x-games for one reason or another.

I have twice felt Steam's burns , and I am not impressed.
However,that does not stop me from enjoying x-games,as I still have DVDs of X2 through to TC.
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Post by Slashman »

thetack wrote:to be a compelling experiance for more people, i read dumb down make simplistic ,make easier so make a mainstream pile of s**t.
Some of the most hardcore gamers I know still think the X series is lacking in a lot of areas. Especially in terms of introducing you to the gameplay mechanics you need to learn to start getting ahead in the game. But also in the atmosphere of the universe itself and the distinct lack of a reason to care about it.

As Bernd said in one of the interviews I read...it's a problem compounded by continually dumping new systems and mechanics on top of the same engine. It makes the barrier to entry to the game way too high. The SETA system is a good example of that. All it was meant to do was speed travel.

Rebirth isn't out yet so I'm going to withhold final judgement until it is. But I can understand their reasoning. I don't think they are trying to make the game dumbed down...but they are trying to make it less of a chore to start to play it.

I had to practically live on the forums for a good chunk of time when I got into TC. A lot of that wasn't a product of the game being complex...it was a problem with the game not properly presenting information I needed and sometimes saying one thing, but actually doing something else. It had a laughable tutorial...if I could even call it that.

I loved the game though. And I kept at it because I could see the potential it had and the hours of entertainment it could and has given me.

But you cannot expect each new player to have the patience to do the same thing. You can't build a game that is downright cryptic in some parts and just doesn't work in some parts. You can't say: 'Well everyone knows that escort missions can't be done after a while unless you jump out and let the transports dock OOS. The forums will pass that along.'
therefore get rid of the old players who think and care and get button punching neandatals
i see the buisness plan
No one is asking you to leave. And I can't imagine that Egosoft wants people who have been with their games from the start to leave. By the same token, they need to ask more people to come and play with less of the possibility that simply getting into their game will be a huge pain in the butt.
i could live with the dumbing down and making easier because our mods will make the game work later but i have technical, legal and moral reasons not to use steam and so will leave the future to you slashman ,nuclear and others and duck out of the x searies, thanking bernd for some great gaming hours.
Keep an eye on the forums...they may yet announce something that satisfies everybody.

I think TTD's stance is one of the most reasonable. If you don't think that the game is worth full price because of the delivery method, then get it on sale for cheap...as long as you can use Steam without major problems.
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ivanwong1989
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Post by ivanwong1989 »

then.. how about those in countries where internet bandwidth are super expensive?

doesn't seem ok that they released a wonderful game. yeah. but.. oh my quota has finished and the only way to get it is by downloading from steam.
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thetack
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Post by thetack »

no slashman i think the game is worth twice what ego charge its the delivery method i object too, i do not want to use steam, i do have an acount from years ago when i didnt realise the pile of s**t it was, i just dont want steam client on my pc.
if bernd alows me thati will buy the game pay him £100 and be happy even if the game is far too easy, i will even except i cant get any freebees but i DONT WANT to go through the total frustration steam gives when you have a poor internet, if it was here i may be happy to use it because i have 100 meg fibre but i will face instant dismisal if downloaded from the steam site on the school system.

edit( part removed and changed because of comment from moderator who was corret in pullin me up and not wishing to cause ego any problems )

that seems to be the point those of you with good or excerlent internet do not seem to grasp the old system allowed me to download patches from ego who are a repitable site and take them home and install ,thats my point i trust modders to put things right i trust bernd to allow them and us to do it , i trust ego with my personal data and its not coincerdance this is the only game forum i am a member of, i like you guys i like the way even this is beign descused normaly by resonable people , i just do not trust steam and cannot bring myself to risk total frustration trying to play a single player game because of a third party program that brings nothing i want or need but just causes problems.
Last edited by thetack on Wed, 7. Mar 12, 12:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Alan Phipps »

Now redundant entry deleted.
Last edited by Alan Phipps on Wed, 7. Mar 12, 15:25, edited 2 times in total.
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thetack
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Post by thetack »

<Now redundant entry deleted. Alan Phipps>
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Post by Rabiator der II. »

TTD wrote:Ego have not lost me as a game player.
I will continue to play the current crop of games and add mods to them etc.

But I do not see myself paying full price for any future Games from Ego.

Yes it has been said that Ego's share of the DVD price upon first release is probably far less than they get from Steam, so me and those like me,won't make much difference.

Except for the fact that Ego will have to wait for my contribution.

I do see the benefit of Steam introducing the X games to many who have never heard of it before.Hopefully ,for Egosoft,there will be more new purchasers than the number of of players who refuse to buy any more x-games for one reason or another.

I have twice felt Steam's burns , and I am not impressed.
However,that does not stop me from enjoying x-games,as I still have DVDs of X2 through to TC.
That's a lot like my own thoughts. While Steam has been mostly working fine for me, I don't entirely trust it. So I will maybe pay half as much for a game on Steam, compared to the same game without Steam.

Depending on the margins on Steam vs. the margins in the boxed game business, that may actually be acceptable to Egosoft (I don't have any real knowledge about those numbers). But if Egosoft has to wait longer for our contribution depends on the price policy of the publisher:
  • - Do they release at the usual 50-60 euros first, to collect the maximum revenue from those who are not bothered by Steam? Then people like you and me might wait for a half-price sale.

    - Or do they reduce the Steam price to the point where their cut from Steam is the same as their cut from a traditional DVD sale? Then (depending on numbers we don't know) the game might come out cheap enough that you and me might not bother with waiting. But that is entirely up to Deep Silver :wink:
Leto89
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Post by Leto89 »

Steam behavior is time related. Nobody can imagine the future powers of the master control program.

End of line.
Xscreamist
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Post by Xscreamist »

I was quite upset when I went to the store and bought my boxed copy of Skyrim only to find out when I got home that it just links you to Steam and downloads the game from them. I purchased the boxed copy just so I could avoid having to download it and have it linked to them. Egosoft please do not pull that kind of crap with X universe.
andrewas
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Post by andrewas »

Going to have to call BS on that one. Bought the retail version of Skyrim myself just so I could test this. Downloaded data was about 150Mbs at that point, which was TESV.exe and the 1.1 patch. It'll be a bit larger today as more patches have been released, but its far from downloading the whole game. And, unlike older games which did screw this up quite dramatically, this was the default behaviour, I put the disc in, ran the installer as normal, installed a multi Gb game with 150Mbs of bandwidth used.
Nanook
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Post by Nanook »

TTD wrote:...
Yes it has been said that Ego's share of the DVD price upon first release is probably far less than they get from Steam, so me and those like me,won't make much difference....
Not sure who said that, but I doubt it's true. Deepsilver is still the publisher, and get their share of the pie, plus we now have Steam and their share. So if Egosoft does get more out of it, it's not very much, I'd guess. The main advantage to Egosoft seems to be not having to host or make multiple patch versions available to us gamers. Steam does that for them, in a force-fed manner. Egosoft will get more exposure through Steam, but by making the game Steam-only, they will undoubtedly lose sales that they probably would've made with a non-Steam version.

Bottom line, Steam + non-Steam versions >> just Steam versions, from a total sales perspective. If they and Deepsilver think that's ok, I guess that's their choice. Unfortunately, we gamers get no choice, despite the fact that we are the ones keeping them in business and giving them a reason for being. :(
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TEKing66
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Post by TEKing66 »

Nannook, I feel your pain.

The way I see it, in this day and time the customer does not matter any longer. If a company loses one or even 1000 customers it doesn't matter because there will be another 1000 to take their place. Or in Steam case another 5 million untapped possibilities, so the few hundred they lose based on a move to Steam only releases is negligible at the very best.

But, that's just my take on it, not that it matters.
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Post by Slashman »

Nanook wrote:Not sure who said that, but I doubt it's true. Deepsilver is still the publisher, and get their share of the pie, plus we now have Steam and their share. So if Egosoft does get more out of it, it's not very much, I'd guess. The main advantage to Egosoft seems to be not having to host or make multiple patch versions available to us gamers. Steam does that for them, in a force-fed manner. Egosoft will get more exposure through Steam, but by making the game Steam-only, they will undoubtedly lose sales that they probably would've made with a non-Steam version.

Bottom line, Steam + non-Steam versions >> just Steam versions, from a total sales perspective. If they and Deepsilver think that's ok, I guess that's their choice. Unfortunately, we gamers get no choice, despite the fact that we are the ones keeping them in business and giving them a reason for being.
Wait...what are you actually comparing? There is no way that less is made with a purely digital copy at the same price point than is made with a physical copy. The retailer gets a cut in the case of a physical copy. In the case of a purely digital copy, there is no retailer or box to finance.

If you're talking about a physical box plus Steam...then I'd be more inclined to agree. Although then you need to factor in other things. Like if Steamworks is the only protection on the physical box, then there is no cut for Tages or Securom etc(and trust me...they take a cut per copy). The fact that zero day leaks are eliminated since the Steamworks release would ensure that no copies are playable before the official release time and day.

So there are advantages and disadvantages both ways. But there is no way we could say for sure that one method over the next earns Egosoft more money because we don't work there and we aren't privy to the decisions and contracts they are involved with.

Also, developers working through a publisher have their own unique arrangements on an individual basis. That adds even more grey area to the equation that is difficult to work out.
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John-David Mc Bride
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Had it with you !

Post by John-David Mc Bride »

The point I was trying to make was this..I will not be buying any more of your game's because they are on steam,and because you have gone for online reg..sorry ..I have a machine that i never put on the net ,which i use to play X..there for I can now never play said game again....get my point ?..not every body has the inter net you know !

good bye

<Posted as a new thread in Universe forum as attempted reply to a thread already locked by another moderator. - Alan Phipps>
Nanook
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Post by Nanook »

Slashman wrote:Wait...what are you actually comparing? There is no way that less is made with a purely digital copy at the same price point than is made with a physical copy. The retailer gets a cut in the case of a physical copy. In the case of a purely digital copy, there is no retailer or box to finance.

.... But there is no way we could say for sure that one method over the next earns Egosoft more money because we don't work there and we aren't privy to the decisions and contracts they are involved with....
And just what part of "Bottom line, Steam + non-Steam versions >> just Steam versions" was unclear? Note the '+' sign. And just what part of the word "choice" did you not get, as in a game buyer's choice? This issue has always been, and probably always will be, about offering the gamer a choice in how they purchase the game. It's never been about only one way or the other. :roll:

But what really puzzles me about all these knee-jerk defenses of Egosoft's choice of Steam only is why the 'Defenders of Steam' seem to feel threatened by it all. Do you think that if we 'non-Steam disbelievers' somehow, against all odds, managed to sway Egosoft to relent and give us a non-Steam version, that that would somehow negatively affect the Steam release? I just don't get all the antipathy being generated by the Steam faithful in these threads. I am awaiting enlightenment. :P
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TTD
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Post by TTD »

But what really puzzles me about all these knee-jerk defenses of Egosoft's choice of Steam only is why the 'Defenders of Steam' seem to feel threatened by it all. Do you think that if we 'non-Steam disbelievers' somehow, against all odds, managed to sway Egosoft to relent and give us a non-Steam version, that that would somehow negatively affect the Steam release? I just don't get all the antipathy being generated by the Steam faithful in these threads. I am awaiting enlightenment.
And this is where I agree with you.
The only way pro-Steam supporters would lose to non-Steam supporters is if Egosoft decided to ditch Steam.
But since Egosoft has paddled in the water,I do not see them stepping out any time soon.
I still feel that the dual option ,as in TC and Superbox was the best move and a good compromise to keep both camps happy.

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