[MOD] Miscellaneous IZ Combat Tweaks

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w.evans
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Post by w.evans »

Hey Conbadicus,
Conbadicus wrote:I can't remember about the Taranis, but I think it came back slowly. I think my biggest issue is that they are being too cautious staying out of range. My squad could have wrecked that tit very quickly if they came in for close attack and utilized all turrets.
The only ships that maintain extreme distance to the target are the Sucellus and the Balor. Both because their long-range weapons can do more damage per time than all of their other weapons combined. Also, the Sucellus turns very slowly, and if it's far from the target, it has to turn less to cover more area. (That was a actually the reason why I experimented with increasing the IHC range in the first place.) The Balor, on the other hand, is very fragile, and the benefit of its moving to turret range isn't worth the risk, in my opinion. The only turrets a Balor has are HIT/MA, and those don't do much damage. All other ships should close to turret range. I quite like how that works since ships play to their strengths more, and have clearer roles.
Conbadicus wrote:Is the targeting of components automatically? Perhaps a 5 star defence captain can purposefully target the enemy turrets, then once a good % of them are down the captain can bring the ship closer for more dps?
Didn't touch the firing scripts at all at the moment, so that's full vanilla. That said, I do see a lot of blown up surface elements, although that could be due to the quantity of fire that the Balor outputs. If you want surface elements prioritized for firing, you could try cicero111's Better Turrets. It's compatible with this, although I don't know if it'll still work ok since it hasn't been updated in a while. Reasoning above for why I don't think the long-ranged ships should move in.
Conbadicus wrote:How does the script decide whether they feel threatened? Perhaps it can be "DPS" based? Do the tools allow a measurement of how fast the Shield is dropping? If so, essentially that above thing can work. Perhaps a good captain knows that the DPS on themself is manageable for a while in order to get in close to use more turrets.
Right now, they retreat based on shield percentage thresholds depending on the captain's background. An Argon captain will retreat when shields are at 20% and will move to re-engage when shields are at 40%. Teladi captains retreat when shields drop to below 40%, and will only attack when their shields go back to 80%. Split captains will retreat when their shields are fully depleted, and will attack when they regain 10% shield strength.
Conbadicus wrote:I'm liking your Mod, mostly because it gets my ships to the target quicker than waiting for them to slow travel.

Also, about the boosting away thing - No, the ships stay out of range, but I was thinking if they did get in close to lay on some damage, they would then want to boost away. etc. Otherwise the blast doesn't touch them.
I am wondering about your Taranis. They get in pretty close. It's possible that the shields of your Taranis went below retreat threshold, and didn't recover enough for it to re-engage. I like using Arawns and Stromvoks for this. Arawns because their shields can take a lot of pummeling, Stromvoks because they're fast enough to keep a ship's turrets from concentrating on them, and hardy enough to keep from getting blown up long enough for the long guns to take a target out. Haven't played with the Argon ships yet, though.

ps. Woke up this morning with an idea of exactly how to implement moving away from a target when it's destroyed, before it explodes. Checking out some numbers, though, it doesn't look like it's necessary because even Stromvoks, whose longest ranged weapons are Plasma/MA, stay far enough away that they don't get caught in the blast radius. (Turns out the blast radius isn't all that huge.)

........
@birdtable, it's all in good fun.
w.evans
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Post by w.evans »

Yep. Can confirm that Xenon do indeed spawn MICT ships with MOC-T_supp2 installed. Just got my ass handed to me by 2 Xenon Is and 2 Xenon Ks, all except one I running MICT, plus fighter escorts. Eventually got them all, most likely just through sheer numbers, but lost a Sucellus (my flagship!), two Balors, and a Split-captained Stromvok.

And an I started it! Just started getting pummeled by long-range torpedoes coming out of nowhere!

Also, didn't know this before now, but apparently a subordinate assumes command of a squadron if a squadron commander is killed.
Sparky Sparkycorp
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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp »

Heh, good to know about the subordinates...sorry for the way you learned :)
demnpercy
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Post by demnpercy »

I'm having a bit of a problem with squadrons. I've installed all of the supplemental mods, and if I assign a ship subordinates, the subordinates will just kind of sit on the edge of the system and try to fly to their leader under normal drive, while their leader jumps around tearing stuff up. All of the ships involved have crews with 5 stars in all the relevant skills, and have a full tank of gas. If I tell the subordinate ships to join my squad, they will jump to the enemy and start attacking as they are supposed to. If the leader is attacked when the subordinates are near (like if they jump to a new system and are attacked at the jump point), they seem to behave correctly and will boost around attacking. I think I've installed the supplements correctly, as my ships can now carry 10,000 fuel cells, and Balors fire more, less agile missiles now.
If it makes any difference, I am using World War X, cicreo111's Better Turrets mod, and a bunch of small quality of life mods (Shut Up Ren, Trade Agents Forever, etc.)
w.evans
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Post by w.evans »

Still working on it. At the moment, squadron subordinates will attack anything within their radar range. For a Balor with the MOC-T supplements installed, that's 48km. A Sucellus has 24km radar range. Not sure about other ships, but some have rather short range. If they don't detect any hostile ships, the MICT movement script won't kick in, and they'll try to stay close to their commander.

I would like to have it so that an attack command sent to the squadron commander gets sent to the whole squadron, but not there yet.

........
edit: Forgot to add that I have not tested this with WWX, mostly because I'm scared that my old computer will melt from the strain. Glad to know that some ships appear to be behaving correctly, but no idea if there will be conflicts. I'll take a look.

The rest of your mod list is ok.

........
edit 2: Just looked at WWX. It has a custom escort script, so it looks like the squad stuff from MICT_supp2 will be bypassed. Otherwise, it looks like everything works. No conflicts, so they should be safe to use together. Squadron subordinates in WWX still enter combat as normal, so they'll still use MICT if their crews are good enough. Squadron subordinates just won't:

jump to their commander if separated,
nor attack if hostiles detected in radar range.

Haven't read the scripts in detail yet, so I don't know what precisely will trigger combat for squad subordinates.

........
edit 3: Looks like vanilla conditions. If I read that correctly, they'll go into combat if:

This ship is attacked,
or Commander is attacked,
or someone else in the squad is attacked,

and hostile ship is within 5km.
Conbadicus
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Post by Conbadicus »

w.evans wrote:
I would like to have it so that an attack command sent to the squadron commander gets sent to the whole squadron, but not there yet.
This!
Conbadicus
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Post by Conbadicus »

I think the Balors are constantly jumping out of range, their missles are always blowing up before they hit the target, and they aren't moving to adjust. Is there a way they can do a range check before they shoot and adjust via boost or something?
w.evans
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Post by w.evans »

They use the range of their weapons to determine their jump/boost/move destination. In my game, the torps have enough juice to loop around the target a couple of times if they miss.

There was a problem a while back if you had MOC-T_supp3 (extends torp range) but not MICT_supp1 (makes torps faster) where torps would self-destruct before they reach max range. It has since been fixed, so you probably need the latest MOC-T_supp3 file.

It'll also work if you have both MOC-T_supp3 (even the old version) AND MICT_supp1. MICT_supp1 makes torps faster, and it's fast enough that they do reach max range.
NocturnalS1n
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Post by NocturnalS1n »

Speaking of range stuff. I've noticed that suddenly my Sucellus' have 36k+ range now.

Now I know the range increase is part of your OOZ mod, however from what I can figure its tied to this one. I've even tried editing range down from 18k, but no matter what it jumps up to 36k. (Perhaps I'm editing the wrong file, been awhile since I went around poking in stuff in X: Rebirth.)

Perhaps it tied to the crew skill range increase?
Last edited by NocturnalS1n on Tue, 24. Mar 15, 11:37, edited 1 time in total.
w.evans
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Post by w.evans »

Huh. Should be 18km.

<replace sel="//bullet/@range">18000</replace>

that's from MOC-T_supp3. The MICT supplements don't touch range. I'll look into it, though.

Update incoming. Updating mod descriptions are boring.

edit: They're in assets\fx\weaponfx\macros\bullet_weapon_capital_mk1_macro.xml if you want to take a look.

edit 2: crew skill range increase from MOC-T is only active OOZ. (Changes the range at which OOZ calc kicks in, doesn't affect actual weapon ranges.)
w.evans
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Post by w.evans »

24.Mar.2015 - MICT_supp2_v0.03 is up!

Contact with the Canterans has taught your MICT captains the wisdom of restraint, wisdom that the Canterans gained from years of dealing with Reiver stations that are indestructible but oddly always look dilapidated. (Reivers seem to like it that way. Odd sense of aesthetics.)
  • Squadron subordinates will now attack only if an attack or patrol order is given to their squadron commander.
I put the new target designation nodes AFTER the vanilla nodes, so vanilla target designation will still take precedence. Individual ships do still go haring off sometimes, but that's from the vanilla target designation.
NocturnalS1n
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Post by NocturnalS1n »

w.evans wrote:Huh. Should be 18km.

<replace sel="//bullet/@range">18000</replace>

that's from MOC-T_supp3. The MICT supplements don't touch range. I'll look into it, though.

Update incoming. Updating mod descriptions are boring.

edit: They're in assets\fx\weaponfx\macros\bullet_weapon_capital_mk1_macro.xml if you want to take a look.

edit 2: crew skill range increase from MOC-T is only active OOZ. (Changes the range at which OOZ calc kicks in, doesn't affect actual weapon ranges.)

Hmm, yeah I was in the correct spot to change it then, even tried to change the range down to 10k but it seems changing that range had no effect.

Are the in-game values shown on the weapon's stats correct?
w.evans
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Post by w.evans »

NocturnalS1n wrote:Are the in-game values shown on the weapon's stats correct?
That is odd. I had thought that the weapon stats are reliable, but in this case, it's strange.

Ah, found it. It's displaying the maximum theoretical range of the weapon:

bullet speed * bullet lifetime

1,600m/s * 23s = 36,800m

Had to increase the lifetime of the bullet for those using only MOC-T. Without it or the speed increase from MICT, the bullet isn't live long enough to reach its target.

Ships should still use the range setting when they actually fire, but I'll keep an eye on it.

Thanks.
NocturnalS1n
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Post by NocturnalS1n »

w.evans wrote:Ah, found it. It's displaying the maximum theoretical range of the weapon:

bullet speed * bullet lifetime

1,600m/s * 23s = 36,800m
Funny thing is, I just figured this out after uninstalling MOC-T trying to troubleshoot it and came here to post what I found.

:lol:

Guess that with 36k range, might want to be careful when they miss.
w.evans
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Post by w.evans »

Thanks for pointing it out, by the way. My mistake, brought about by trying to maintain the changes in separate supps. That, or I just overlooked it. Speed was increased to 1,600m/s to bring the range up to 24,000 (which I was using for a while -- this is equal to max Sucellus radar range), and I forgot to bring it down after I settled on 18,000 for IHC range. Then increased lifetime because someone pointed out that when only the MOC-T supplement is used, the bullet never reaches the target, although the gun still fires at max stated range.

I'll bring the speed down and, hm, thinking of transferring all of the Sucellus changes to the MOC-T supplement since only the speed increase is in the MICT supplement anyway.

edit: That was funny. Thanks for the link! Forgot about that "conversation."
NocturnalS1n
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Post by NocturnalS1n »

w.evans wrote:I'll bring the speed down
Hmm. I quite like the thought of it being a very high speed projectile.

Is there a limitation to projectile speed? Perhaps increase the speed further while cutting down on lifespan?
w.evans
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Post by w.evans »

Ended up increasing projectile speed to keep the vanilla lifetime value. Not sure if there's a limit, but if it travels too fast, there's a chance that the collision won't be detected. lifetime="1" speed="18000" should be ok, but haven't tested it.

I think Xenon turret bullets are the fastest at 2100m/s
NocturnalS1n
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Post by NocturnalS1n »

Oh man, 18k/s projectile, gonna try that out here in a second. Just got done testing out 2k/s at 9s lifespan.

Seemed to work well enough, hadn't had a chance to try it against targets that shoot back though.

Edit: Just tried it, appears to hit the target just fine, does seem a tad too fast however, no time to enjoy that glorious round in flight.

Just needs some beefed up effects/sound, needs more oomph to it.

Edit 2: Starting to really like it now.
Last edited by NocturnalS1n on Tue, 24. Mar 15, 13:38, edited 1 time in total.
w.evans
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Post by w.evans »

Seems to work at 18km/s. Visually, I like it better at ~1600m/s though. Something about that speed that makes it look massive. At 18000m/s, it just looks like a streak. And at vanilla 800m/s, dunno, looks like a homing mine of some sort.

Extremely accurate at 18km/s, however.

edit: ha! Didn't notice your edit.
NocturnalS1n
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Post by NocturnalS1n »

Yeah, the increased speed makes it pretty reliable at applying damage from afar. But I have to agree on the visual part.

Maybe someone will come along and make projectile/sound effect overhaul like previous X games. The IHC could really do with some beefiness in both sound and visual department. I think it uses the same "projectile" as the Targon cannons.

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