Current [POLL] Would you use Steam for Rebirth?

[HBK]

I have been playing computer games for decades (since the late 70s) & never experienced problems of this magnitude getting games to run reliably until Steam became mandatory for virtually every major release.

I call that BS. I've been playing for almost as long as you (started in the early eighties) and PC gaming has always been synonym with "problems" and "DIY". This is nothing specific to Steam.

With Steam we may have activation and DL issues.

But before Steam we had drive incompatibilities with copy-protection systems (back in the day when the term DRM wasn't even invented). When it was not simply a disk scratch or even earlier diskette demagnetization issues.

And I'm not even talking about manually configuring your graphics card (at a time when it wasn't even a GPU) and your sound card.

Steam has issues. It's far from perfect. But saying it's the root of all problems makes no sense. I'm sure most games you had problems with would most likely have had those issues even if Steam didn't even exist.

[Fire_Spy1]

I've been using steam for 7 years and have never had any problems with it. That is not to say I haven't had problems with games, but those problems were to do with the games themselves and had nothing to do with steam except that the problems got solved faster simply due to having the steam forums there which sped up finding work arounds and other fixes.

I remember the fun of trying to fit DOS drivers and games into 640K. Trying to shift things to upper memory and so on.. So much easier these days..

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

I remember the fun of trying to fit DOS drivers and games into 640K. Trying to shift things to upper memory and so on.. So much easier these days..

Ditto - and typing in programs from Magazines which basically involved data statements with lots of checksums.

Steam is not perfect, but it certainly is a marked improvement.

[vargata]

I remember the fun of trying to fit DOS drivers and games into 640K. Trying to shift things to upper memory and so on.. So much easier these days..

Ditto - and typing in programs from Magazines which basically involved data statements with lots of checksums.

Steam is not perfect, but it certainly is a marked improvement.

tape+screwdriver and cartridges, that was the golden age

anyway, the best thing in steam that you can get and access your games anywhere anytime on any pc, you just need internet (i remember i've made a 300euro phonecost to my workplace cos i've installed the hl2 and cs:s through a company mobile back when i've got them) i've bought many games again just cos they released a "running on new systems" version on steam. actually i would even buy more games if they come on steam cos i know i will not lose them. just click on download and in no time i can play them anywhere.

[Ebany]

Threads like this give some of the forum members a channelled way to let off some steam about their objections to Steam (whether rational or not).

Emote depiction of the Steam debate:

lol

It is not potentially a deal with Steam per se but rather to do with Egosoft's contractual position with their publisher DeepSilver. DeepSilver has gone Steam exclusive, at least that is the way I understand it based on past discussions in this forum.

I can understand if they only chose to distribute through Steam, but implying Steam is forcing them to is something else entirely.

Fantastic! all I ask now is understanding that some people chose not to use Steam for their own reasons and, regardless of how foreign or ridicules that sounds to you, it's magnanimous to respect each persons individual choices as they respect yours.

[Ebany]

And they are totally aware and always have been.

Stickies and announcements remain ignored as usual, I see...

Not ignored.

An opinion not said is an opinion not heard.

[Inverness]

Fantastic! all I ask now is understanding that some people chose not to use Steam for their own reasons and, regardless of how foreign or ridicules that sounds to you, it's magnanimous to respect each persons individual choices as they respect yours.

It would be dishonest to say that I respect everyone's opinions on the matter of Steam. This is because there are those that will chose not to use it, not based on its merits, but because of whatever concept of DRM they've conjured in their minds and attached Steam to.

Naturally, this does not apply to everyone. But I've seen enough of the nonsense in this thread to know that, while legitimate issues and concerns exist (mostly surrounding bandwidth usage and offline mode), there are plenty of opinions and choices being made that aren't worthy of any respect.

[Ebany]

No personal choice is correct but they're all worthy of respect. It's the belief that some people's opinions are more "correct" than others which leads to the rise of groups of violence (like the Nazi's or KKK), groups who believe in suppressing any mindset not attuned to their own.

That's the beauty of free thought, it doesn't have to be "correct", based on "fact", or even "make sense", it just has to be free. Our greatest golden ages came from (or caused) free thought, Vinci's greatest works would not exist without this type of radical thinking. Columbus would not have discovered the "Trade Winds" without some amazing intuition developed for keeping an open mind. Hell, the world would still be flat and stars our Gods!

So far I've seen no real hatred towards Steam, nor have I seen anyone who dis-likes Steam attempting to push their beliefs onto others. However I've seen people who, obviously believe in Steam and everything they stand for, stomp on any notion that Steam's (perceived) imperfections may sway a person to shop elsewhere. What a foolish notion, shop elsewhere ........ unthinkable!

I've even seen, and I guess I should have expected it, someone suggest that if people have reservations about Steam acting as sole provider of X:Rebirth then maybe they don't belong as part of the community playing X:Series games and should simply go away (for good). I think one would find Egosoft doesn't support this immature and unproductive line of thought.

These gaps are for leaving one's opinions not for extinguishing others. I'll give an example, though there have been many great ones already.

* I voted yes. Steam makes it so easy for me to play games, they're all in one location, and I can play or install them when I like and as I like. They have a great community and Mod system as well.

* I voted no. I had an account ban (turns out due to database error) and when I finally got it back again all my games were missing. I only got some back because I didn't have receipts for the ones I hadn't purchased through Steam or Paypal. I will never trust them again!

*I voted maybe. I don't like using Steam, it doesn't feel secure. So maybe in the future Egosoft will release a copy which doesn't require Steam and I will buy it then.

All these are excellent reasons and help to expand our knowledge of what the fan's are thinking, after all, if you care enough to vote and leave an opinion, then you're a fan.

[Chris0132]

No I'm pretty sure some thoughts are smart and sensible and helpful and some are really really stupid.

A lot of people have opinions I don't respect, because they're terrible opinions, such as the people in the groups you listed.

'I don't have to substantiate my opinion because it's my opinion and you have to respect it' sounds a lot like an excuse because your opinion isn't very well thought out.

Opinions based on erroneous infromation, particularly ones based on wilful ignorance of the subject matter are not worthy of respect because they do not correspond to anything resembling reality. They serve no valuable purpose, anything that results from them, good or ill, is essentially resulting from random chance, because what any given crazy person has rattling around in their head is pretty random, or certainly not following any attempt to determine a universal and accurate definition of reality, which is what opinions should be based on.

Put simply, if someone is spouting whatever nonsense they like the sound of, rather than something based on rational thought and information gathering, they're a dolt and their opinion is dumb.

I also find it somewhat hard to believe that you haven't seen any pushy anti-steam sentiment, you are capable of reading, and you've been in the other steam thread, so either you're being deliberately selective, or you're being dishonest.

[mintmoose]

No I'm pretty sure some thoughts are smart and sensible and helpful and some are really really stupid.

A lot of people have opinions I don't respect, because they're terrible opinions, such as the people in the groups you listed.

'I don't have to substantiate my opinion because it's my opinion and you have to respect it' sounds a lot like an excuse because your opinion isn't very well thought out.

Opinions based on erroneous infromation, particularly ones based on wilful ignorance of the subject matter are not worthy of respect because they do not correspond to anything resembling reality. They serve no valuable purpose, anything that results from them, good or ill, is essentially resulting from random chance, because what any given crazy person has rattling around in their head is pretty random, or certainly not following any attempt to determine a universal and accurate definition of reality, which is what opinions should be based on.

Put simply, if someone is spouting whatever nonsense they like the sound of, rather than something based on rational thought and information gathering, they're a dolt and their opinion is dumb.

I also find it somewhat hard to believe that you haven't seen any pushy anti-steam sentiment, you are capable of reading, and you've been in the other steam thread, so either you're being deliberately selective, or you're being dishonest.

Hats off to your comments. I find that viewpoint absolutely refreshing. Purposefully patting on the back, or ignoring someone else's stupid comments/opinions based on "respect" does not provide any sort of environment for improvement or growth. Challenging someone is so much more productive, and sometimes allow them to realize their being stupid.

I personally was an anti-steam comp-Gamer based on almost no knowledge other than I hated DRM and anything to do with it. Now however, after actually using Steam (because of being told that I had a stupid and invalid opinion based on nothing), I have realized that it really does have many things to offer users and is a very useful service. Now I own several games on Steam, and have had very little problems. No more than any other media distribution

By the way most of what you said will be going on my quote wall, with credit given of course

[pjknibbs]

I think you're going over the edge into insulting other forum users there, Chris0132, particularly in the last couple of sentences--cool it down, please.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

So far I've seen no real hatred towards Steam, nor have I seen anyone who dis-likes Steam attempting to push their beliefs onto others. However I've seen people who, obviously believe in Steam and everything they stand for, stomp on any notion that Steam's (perceived) imperfections may sway a person to shop elsewhere. What a foolish notion, shop elsewhere ........ unthinkable!

Most of the non-anti-Steam sentiment has been along the following lines: Don't take other peoples word for it, give Steam a chance if you have not already.

The majority of the most vehement anti-steam sentiment has been along the lines: DRM is evil, don't use Steam because it has an (optional) DRM function that most developers/publishers on Steam make use off (a lot of people equate Steam to DRM though which is misleading).

The only generally applicable valid anti-steam sentiment IMO has been those that complain about internet bandwidth usage and/or connectivity issues (off-line mode complaints generally - which is only a real concern if you have particularly unreliable internet connection - for others it is merely an annoyance if an issue at all).

Those that complain about losing games because of database corruption (or other reasons) I do sympathise with but such occurrences are actually rare and IMO not a valid reason to discourage others from using Steam. They do however serve well as a cautionary tail for modern gamers, remember to keep records of your online purchases. This should be easy as the receipts are often e-mailed to you.

The general point being: X-Rebirth is for the foreseeable future only available on Steam thus despite the pro/anti-Steam rhetoric it comes down to one point - Are you likely to buy X-Rebirth (despite Steam)?

[Ebany]

No I'm pretty sure some thoughts are smart and sensible and helpful and some are really really stupid.
........... they're a dolt and their opinion is dumb.

Your basically giving your approval for derogatory and non-constructive degradation of another's comments on their shopping preference because they have a difference of opinion, or simply aren't as smart as you.

I also find it somewhat hard to believe that you haven't seen any pushy anti-steam sentiment, you are capable of reading, and you've been in the other steam thread, so either you're being deliberately selective, or you're being dishonest.

Exactly my point, this is a fine example of how a person degrade another. You are actively chastising my comments based on your own set of values, in fact I would say it's more a personal attack? You're reworking my comments to show an inaccurate meaning and calling me dishonest without even been able to show why?

It saddens me immensely that a person feels the need to attack another like this, somewhere inside I feel people of this era should be above such things.

Hats off to your comments.

It saddens me someone would support this type of improper and unsuitable attack on another.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

[OT]

...

I think the point Chris was making (albeit perhaps badly phrased) was that there is in-fact a lot of aggressively worded anti-Steam rhetoric which even puts the backs up of those of us who are neither pro nor anti Steam. You may need to dig through the Hundreds if not Thousands of posts in these threads to find the trigger posts though.

That is not to say the non-anti-Steam people are innocent but rather I would refer to: Newton's Laws of Motion. [/OT]

But lets get back on to topic shall we...

[Ebany]

Most of the non-anti-Steam sentiment has been along the following lines: Don't take other peoples word for it, give Steam a chance if you have not already.

Here is an example, just one example as everyone can read back for more.

Fact of the matter is X:Rebirth will be on Steam and nothing else as far as we know.

Deal with it ™

It's probably better for Egosoft and the community if certain people just left.

This is no productive in any fashion, and there are many many examples of these types of comments. Every person should have a vote and have their say without worrying that someone's about to single them out and call them a fool who simply needs to f*off.

[OT]

...

I think the point Chris was making (albeit perhaps badly phrased) was that there is in-fact a lot of aggressively worded anti-Steam rhetoric which even puts the backs up of those of us who are neither pro nor anti Steam. You may need to dig through the Hundreds if not Thousands of posts in these threads to find the trigger posts though.

That is not to say the non-anti-Steam people are innocent but rather I would refer to: Newton's Laws of Motion. [/OT]

But lets get back on to topic shall we...

He most certainly was not. He purposely reworked my comments to appear totally different than their original meaning, and then called me dishonest.

But your right, I will leave it be.

[HBK]

So far I've seen no real hatred towards Steam, nor have I seen anyone who dis-likes Steam attempting to push their beliefs onto others. However I've seen people who, obviously believe in Steam and everything they stand for, stomp on any notion that Steam's (perceived) imperfections may sway a person to shop elsewhere. What a foolish notion, shop elsewhere ........ unthinkable!

I for one have seen a number of people avoiding Steam for reasons based on obvious misconceptions.

As much as anyone has the right to think what they want, I don't think it's a bad thing to try to explain to them that their opinion is based (at least partly) on false information.

Edit :

The majority of the most vehement anti-steam sentiment has been along the lines: DRM is evil, don't use Steam because it has an (optional) DRM function that most developers/publishers on Steam make use off (a lot of people equate Steam to DRM though which is misleading).

Well, technically, Steam IS a gigantic generalized DRM, albeit a lenient one.

Edit 2 : Of course, Steam is also more than that. It's a complete digital distribution platform with a full set of community tools (friend lists and the likes). But it is a DRM.

When some people think about DRM, they imagine some kind of rootkit screwing your computer. But DRM is just a name for systems whose purpose is to manage digital rights. Which is exactly one of the main purposes of Steam.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@HBK: The DRM facility is the target of a has-a relationship not an is-a relationship (i.e. Steam has-a DRM facility). If EVERY game on Steam was protected by Steam's DRM function I would agree with you but this is not the case. [EDIT]It is an unfortunately all too common perception that all games on Steam are - this is something that does deserve debunking.[EDIT]

Of course this is all rather moot since Egosoft will be making use of Steam integration for X-Rebirth and thus will be covered by Steam's comparativly lax implementation of DRM.

[HBK]

The fact that Steam allow some of the games it delivers not to use it's DRM facility doesn't change the fact that Steam is still a DRM. It's just lenient one. In a very few exceptional cases I might add.

[Dragonbait]

I actually wouldn't buy this (or any other) game if it wasn't on steam.

My game collection is on steam, I can access my games from wherether I want, my games are kept up-to-date, I don't have DVD's to lose or scratch, I don't have to hunt around for download locations etc.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

[OT]

The fact that Steam allow some of the games it delivers not to use it's DRM facility doesn't change the fact that Steam is still a DRM. It's just lenient one. In a very few exceptional cases I might add.

Using your reasoning, Windows and any other platform that runs Steam can be considered DRM as well.

Just because an item or suite of components has an optional feature does not make that item or suite of components the feature in itself. It may be a subtle point but it is there none the less.

I can however see how a non-software engineer could perceive it differently. Abstraction is one of the easiest things to cause confusion.[/OT]

In any case... it is rather moot... this thread is about X-Rebirth and not DRM specifically.