Egosoft: Never again

[lLongshanks]

While most games when release do have bugs. Most games get patched up fairly quickly. While ES take a year to fix them. There is no way ill be playing this game in a years time.

not sure what makes you think it takes a year to get patched up.

version 2 came out after a year sure, but the game was patched and working long before that came out.

1.3 fixed most of the problems in the game, and that came out only a few months after release, with 1.4 not long after that

v2 which was released after a year mainly added new content

Look at the readme file its far too big for me to post here. One of the biggest fixes was the removal of starforce.

Except there you're not just playing the game, you're playing other people too. That's a totally different story!

That makes very little difference the reason is that allot of other games have a bigger life span that the X games. The X games may last me a month maybe 2 and that cost me £30 for the same £30 I could play WOW for 3 months or EVE for 2 1/2 months. I don’t think X3 is such a huge bargain as allot of others do.
That just my opinion not many games last too long with me,

Easiest, or just easy in the way you play it? One of my starts in X², for example, was a "no factories, no UTs" start. Give it a go... it's fun. The point of this game is you don't have to do it in any particular way - it's a sandbox. You don't have to make sandcastles if you don't want to.

I like challenge and depth to a game. I hate doing all these tiny repetitive tasks. For instance I buy 100 fighters then I have to buy the upgrades, set turrets, set missile amount, set the home base, buy the weapons, equip the weapons, load the missiles, and you have to do that 1 at a time. I’ve done that 600 times forgive me if I don’t feel like doing that again.
I’ve already done many different starts in XBTF/X2/X3R this game offers very little extra.

That's not what I was saying. I was saying if the game was faulty I wouldn't be quiet about it just because I'm a moderator.

I classed the performance as a critical bug - why would I call something a bug if I didn't think it was the game?

Perhaps you should review the way you wrote it. I do agree thats its not the worst release but as its only an expansion it should be so much better.

[pjknibbs]

One of the biggest fixes was the removal of starforce.

The game was totally playable while it still had Starforce on it, so what relevance does that have?

[esd]

Easiest, or just easy in the way you play it? One of my starts in X², for example, was a "no factories, no UTs" start. Give it a go... it's fun. The point of this game is you don't have to do it in any particular way - it's a sandbox. You don't have to make sandcastles if you don't want to.

I like challenge and depth to a game. I hate doing all these tiny repetitive tasks. For instance I buy 100 fighters then I have to buy the upgrades, set turrets, set missile amount, set the home base, buy the weapons, equip the weapons, load the missiles, and you have to do that 1 at a time. I’ve done that 600 times forgive me if I don’t feel like doing that again.
I’ve already done many different starts in XBTF/X2/X3R this game offers very little extra.

Different game-set starts or different self-imposed starts? See, if you don't want to outfit all those ships - don't. There's nothing saying you have to!

Try a "one ship game" for example - the self-set rule being you only have one ship.

That's not what I was saying. I was saying if the game was faulty I wouldn't be quiet about it just because I'm a moderator.

I classed the performance as a critical bug - why would I call something a bug if I didn't think it was the game?

Perhaps you should review the way you wrote it. I do agree thats its not the worst release but as its only an expansion it should be so much better.

Review the way I wrote it? If you can explain logically why I'd say something's a critical bug but isn't the game's fault, perhaps I will.

And yes, it is much better. Or did you not play X³:R 1.0?

[BillSheil]

I find the game too easy and lacking of any real challenge. This has been by far the easiest game to make money in.
In my current game i have around 1200 factories, 980 ships over 20 billion credits. Iv wiped out most of the Terran's and I'm getting ready to take out Taurus what else is there to do? I was thinking of a restart but the though or arming ans setting up my ships 1 at a time just filled me with dread. The game lacks any depth or challenge and so limits the re playability for me.

Easiest, or just easy in the way you play it? One of my starts in X², for example, was a "no factories, no UTs" start. Give it a go... it's fun. The point of this game is you don't have to do it in any particular way - it's a sandbox. You don't have to make sandcastles if you don't want to.

No, and that's Orwellian doublespeak at its finest.

A sandbox game is defined and measured by the things that you can do, not what you cannot. Defining a set of negative and restrictive game styles (even if they are recommended add long term replayability) is entirely contradictory to the defintion of the game as a sandbox.

To paraphrase you, what you should have said was:

The point of this game is you can play it in any particular way - it's a sandbox. You can make sandcastles if you want to.

Seriously, this inability to let players (aka. customers) play the way they want to and expect to be able to play based on their past experience of X titles is precisely why TC is a much poorer sandbox game than previous titles. Even if you can provide alternatives that will let them enjoy the game until its patched.

Having said that though I do have a lot of confidence that ES will address the major imbalances.

[esd]

There's no Orwellian doublespeak there at all. I never said he couldn't do those things - I said he doesn't have to.

Just because you have a full buffet in front of you doesn't mean you're forced to eat the sausage rolls if you don't like them.

The only things I've been unable to do in TC that I could do in R come from the bonus pack...

[BillSheil]

No. You replied to his criticism of lack of depth by suggesting restrictive game playing, specifically:

"... no factories, no UTs"

and then attempted with some upside down logic to justify this in terms of the game being a "sandbox".

If someone wants to eat sausage rolls (or anything else) at a buffet but the only thing they're offered is bread, then it's not a buffet (but is still a meal).

Edit: And neither does being presented with a table full of food but being told that you can only make a limited selection of the dishes available make it a better buffet than one in which you can freely mix and match (sorry about belabouring the buffet analogy).

[esd]

No. You replied to his criticism of lack of depth by suggesting restrictive game playing, specifically:

"... no factories, no UTs"

and then attempted with some upside down logic to justify this in terms of the game being a "sandbox".

If someone wants to eat sausage rolls (or anything else) at a buffet but the only thing they're offered is bread, then it's not a buffet (but is still a meal).

If you can show where I offered only bread, you'd have a point. But I didn't. I didn't tell him he couldn't do something. I didn't tell him not to do something. I simply made a suggestion based on something I've done.

It's no different to someone saying "use HEPTs instead of PBEs". No upside down logic, merely someone sharing suggestions based on how they've had fun playing.

The sausage rolls are still there, they have gone nowhere. I merely said "if you don't like them, perhaps you'd like to try the scotch eggs?".

Edit: And neither does being presented with a table full of food but being told that you can only make a limited selection of the dishes available make it a better buffet than one in which you can freely mix and match (sorry about belabouring the buffet analogy).

I never told him he could only make a limited selection either. This isn't upside down logic, but you appear to be misrepresenting what I am saying.

[lLongshanks]

One of the biggest fixes was the removal of starforce.

The game was totally playable while it still had Starforce on it, so what relevance does that have?

That copy protection causes alot of problems for alot of DVD drives My brother inlaw had to go buy a new DVD drive to play the game.

[esd]

Copy protection discussion almost always turns to discusson, admission and/or justification of piracy. Let's leave that subject right there.

[BillSheil]

The sausage rolls are still there, they have gone nowhere. I merely said "if you don't like them, perhaps you'd like to try the scotch eggs?".

But the point is that he actually likes the sausage rolls (as many X players enjoy taking combat missions), they just happen to incompatible with the rest of the spread (analogy breaks down).

And back to the real subject many X veterans are used to mixing their game style and activities (crazy though it may seem to you) and actually appreciate the X series precisely because in past title they have allowed the freedom (in a positive sandbox way) to do so.

TC (in its current unpatched form) doesn't allow you to mix combat missions with other gameplay styles; the ability to make billions of credits in a few hours of gameplay from the start just destroys the commercial aspects of the game. It's gone from in previous titles:

Trade and Build and Think and Fight

to in TC:

(Trade and Build and Think) or Fight

.. with a few question marks over the balance of the build missions as well.

Suggesting negative self-restricting gameplay methods are all good and fine as a way of getting by and enjoying the game to a degree until the imbalances are ironed out, but they don't justify the game as being in the same league in its current form as previous titles (even though ES have a good history of somewhat belatedly fixing the problems). Nor for that matter should they be used as an argument the game is not broken in its present state even though they they can be used to point out that the game is nevertheless somewhat playable.

[RegisterMe]

And back to the real subject many X veterans are used to mixing their game style and activities (crazy though it may seem to you) and actually appreciate the X series precisely because in past title they have allowed the freedom (in a positive sandbox way) to do so.

TC (in its current unpatched form) doesn't allow you to mix combat missions with other gameplay styles; the ability to make billions of credits in a few hours of gameplay from the start just destroys the commercial aspects of the game. It's gone from in previous titles:

Trade and Build and Think and Fight

to in TC:

(Trade and Build and Think) or Fight

eh? I'm building, trading, fighting, thinking. All the time. I mix in every aspect the game has to my gameplay. Why can't other people?

If one wants to restrict your game play to one route (ie combat missions) then one can. Personally I choose not to.

[esd]

The sausage rolls are still there, they have gone nowhere. I merely said "if you don't like them, perhaps you'd like to try the scotch eggs?".

But the point is that he actually likes the sausage rolls (as many X players enjoy taking combat missions), they just happen to incompatible with the rest of the spread (analogy breaks down).

And back to the real subject many X veterans are used to mixing their game style and activities (crazy though it may seem to you) and actually appreciate the X series precisely because in past title they have allowed the freedom (in a positive sandbox way) to do so.

TC (in its current unpatched form) doesn't allow you to mix combat missions with other gameplay styles; the ability to make billions of credits in a few hours of gameplay from the start just destroys the commercial aspects of the game. It's gone from in previous titles:

Trade and Build and Think and Fight

to in TC:

(Trade and Build and Think) or Fight

.. with a few question marks over the balance of the build missions as well.

Suggesting negative self-restricting gameplay methods are all good and fine as a way of getting by and enjoying the game to a degree until the imbalances are ironed out, but they don't justify the game as being in the same league in its current form as previous titles (even though ES have a good history of somewhat belatedly fixing the problems). Nor for that matter should they be used as an argument the game is not broken in its present state even though they they can be used to point out that the game is nevertheless somewhat playable.

I still don't agree with you. I'm quite happily combining all of the above in my game. I'm a wanderer - I wander. I do whatever I feel like at the time, be it combat, missions, trading or building. Sometimes I've begun a start with a specific aim in mind - such as "no stations and no UTs" - why? Just because.

Remember, previous games had outrageous rewards on combat too - I distinctly remember receiving over 100,000,000cr for popping a K, a J and a few fighters during a Xenon Invasion in Getsu Fune while playing X².

You seem to be suggesting that I'm claiming things aren't imbalanced (though that's subjective, naturally) and that to get round it you musn't do x, y or z. That's simply not the case. I think the number of ships in patrol missions are far too high - and it's this number of ships that seems to be resulting in large payouts.

I've never said "you can't do", or "you musn't do", which is what you've argued I have by misrepresenting my own argument. I've merely offered the scotch egg as an alternative.

Don't forget, the poster in question said this:

I hate doing all these tiny repetitive tasks. For instance I buy 100 fighters then I have to buy the upgrades, set turrets, set missile amount, set the home base, buy the weapons, equip the weapons, load the missiles, and you have to do that 1 at a time. I’ve done that 600 times forgive me if I don’t feel like doing that again.

That's quite clearly them saying they don't like doing something, so I suggested simply that they don't do it - afterall, there's nothing forcing them to.
Also consider that this argument is applicable to the previous games too - the micromanagement (or tediousness, if that's your view) has been the same right since XTension when it comes to equipping your own ships, unless you're saying there was an easier way in previous games?

Is it a "negative" self imposed restriction? Again, that's subjective - it's your opinion that it's negative, not mine. I view anything that makes the game fun as anything but negative, and the challenge of getting by without stations or UTs is certainly fun.

Sure, I think it could be improved. I've even given thought to my own scripts to address this - what I've not done is claim it's broken, because afterall, it's only broken if it's not what the developer intended. Do you know if that's how they wanted it to be? Because I don't.

[orion_1394]

Reporting a bug in this thread won't help to get it fixed. Egosoft need to know about a bug before they can fix it, and they will only see it if you post in the tech support forum.

i was just saying i'm not reporting... i'm sure its been reported anyway or found by egosoft cause i got like 20 ships in my universe flying round with fake or dead tags on them....

[BillSheil]

eh? I'm building, trading, fighting, thinking. All the time. I mix in every aspect the game has to my gameplay. Why can't other people?

In a couple of hours of play you the normal payout for combat missions is in the region of a billion credits per hour at which point money and rank have no further meaning and you are capable of taking on any threat that the universe can offer (and the game/system can handle) by sheer brute force.

How do you credibly combine that with any meaningful trading, building or thinking?

[Poobah]

Remember, previous games had outrageous rewards on combat too - I distinctly remember receiving over 100,000,000cr for popping a K, a J and a few fighters during a Xenon Invasion in Getsu Fune while playing X².

In X2 and X3:R combat missions with high rewards (XI's) came along every eight hours (iirc?) and at the top three combat ranks for assassination missions too.

In X3:TC you can pick up a patrol every three seconds and they all pay atleast as well as XIs.

[esd]

In X3:TC you can pick up a patrol every three seconds and they all pay atleast as well as XIs.

But I've already said I think they're too much - I've not ignored that at all. What I'm not saying, however, is that they're broken. Why? Because for all we know, that's how the developers wanted it and they've not said otherwise.

[RegisterMe]

eh? I'm building, trading, fighting, thinking. All the time. I mix in every aspect the game has to my gameplay. Why can't other people?

In a couple of hours of play you the normal payout for combat missions is in the region of a billion credits per hour at which point money and rank have no further meaning and you are capable of taking on any threat that the universe can offer (and the game/system can handle) by sheer brute force.

How do you credibly combine that with any meaningful trading, building or thinking?

The highest ever reward I've had for a Xenon Patrol (one sector) missions was about fifty million. That's at Warlord. What rank are you at to be getting a couple of billion an hour? What fleets do you field to be able to win? How do you support them? How do you guarantee that the missions spawn?

Oh, and I actually enjoy building . There might be better ways of maximising "credits / real world minute played" but that's not my aim....

[Mars Mug]

Try a "one ship game" for example - the self-set rule being you only have one ship.

That’s my standard game, factories, traders, and wingmen are usually a necessary evil of the missions, and in the case of X3-TC I didn’t waste any time disposing of the annoying wingmen. So my game is significantly different to those with 1200 factories and 800 ships. The ships I have in stations are captures I haven’t sold yet or special ‘trophy’ ships.

I like scotch eggs, but am quite fussy about my sausage rolls, pork pies are ace!

The highest ever reward I've had for a Xenon Patrol (one sector) missions was about fifty million. That's at Warlord. What rank are you at to be getting a couple of billion an hour? What fleets do you field to be able to win? How do you support them? How do you guarantee that the missions spawn?

Yesterday I completed a Patrol and got 470 milllion, using a single Osaka. I think my rank is Battlemaster.

[Poobah]

In X3:TC you can pick up a patrol every three seconds and they all pay atleast as well as XIs.

But I've already said I think they're too much - I've not ignored that at all. What I'm not saying, however, is that they're broken. Why? Because for all we know, that's how the developers wanted it and they've not said otherwise.

But if one disagrees with a design choice one can still level the criticism of being 'broken' at something. That is to say, just because something is Working As Intended (TM) that doesn't mean that it wasn't a bad choice, and one is entitled to form a personal opinion on such matters.

Personally I do consider the combat missions to be broken, regardless of whether they are currently functioning as intended. I find not only the rewards to be hideously out of balance with the game, but the tendency for everything to spawn all at once to be fps-breaking. That was a personal, subjective opinion, I'm sure your experiences and opinions vary greatly and am not in any way trying to imply I have access to any sort of absolute truth regarding game balance, and no I don't have several thousand pounds worth of top range computer hardware, but I don't really think I should be expected to, unless the game is marketed at that price and comes with the computer needed to play it.

[pjknibbs]

Personally I do consider the combat missions to be broken, regardless of whether they are currently functioning as intended. I find not only the rewards to be hideously out of balance with the game, but the tendency for everything to spawn all at once to be fps-breaking.

I would actually have to agree somewhat with that. If you take a multi-sector patrol, most of the time every single enemy ship you'll ever see during it will jump into the first sector within the first five minutes--I think I *once* took such a patrol where there was something to kill in the second sector. If the ships were split over all the sectors in the patrol it would make them easier and would prevent people's machines melting when they took them; then tone down the rewards somewhat BECAUSE things have got easier, and presto, the mission is balanced!