Trump

[Mightysword]

@Ketraa: I fully understanding the difference between equality and equity, so you won't find me running around shouting "equality" out of ignorant. The first step is still of course, fight for equality itself - i.e no one will be deny a job or an opportunity because the color of the skin or gender, and we had made great stride in that regard, even in the US. Of course that itself doesn't solve the problem. So now we ensure everyone can apply and fill out the form, and will only be judge by the abilities - great! That alone still won't ensure equal representation proportional to the population. So this is where equity comes in, which I guess what you're talking about. Many due to circumstance can not reached the point where they can quality to fill out the form to begin with. I.e if two races are 50/50 in term of population, then ideally the pool of 10 candidates for a job is 5/5. But the lack of equity meaning even if you have equality in the interview process, the pool of candidate is still something like 2/8.

The question is how to bridge that equity gap. I'm all for (and work for) a bottom up model. Create a better environment, giving assistant to communities, providing scholarship ...etc... basically give the necessary mean so that everyone can achieve the same end. I am however, against the idea of forcing the end result itself. I will work toward making that 10 candidate pool to have a 5/5, then I'll leave that to equality. I will never force equality for the shake of equity. 3 reasons:

- You can not fight for equity in the 2nd step by flying in the face of the equality you worked for in the first step. It makes the whole cause a hypocrisy instead of just. Choosing someone because of their race is as bad as not choosing someone because of their race.
- More importantly (and perhaps more dangerously) it's a way to sow seed of a new type of discrimination where none had existed before. I won't say it's there yet, but given the Asian communities movement and attitude toward affirmative action in recent year, I'm worried that the sight of it incoming.
- Last reason is personal. You can only fight for true equality when you treat the argument as "people", not statistic. Policies like affirmative action has very little to address the root cause of discrimination, but more focus on padding the statistic so (some) activist can feel good about accomplishing something.

[Vertigo 7]

we seriously need a facepalm emoji on here.

[mr.WHO]

School is a start, but what about bank lending? housing opportunities? employment? wages? healthcare?

School is most important, because it jumpstart everything. Better education is better job opportunity for better wages, bank lending and housing opportunity.
Unfortunately there is problem that US school are shit and US private schools are "no-poor allowed" rather than "no Black allowed".

USA need more Morgan Freeman's than another r****** rapper or twerking trash.
He played as US President long before Obama, he played as a God and no one had a problem with him.
If he would run for President, I'd freaking vote for him (if I would be US citizen) over Biden or Trump.
Put Denzel Washington as a VP and they would DESTROY both Biden and Trump

[Vertigo 7]

School is a start, but what about bank lending? housing opportunities? employment? wages? healthcare?

School is most important, because it jumpstart everything. Better education is better job opportunity for better wages, bank lending and housing opportunity.
Unfortunately there is problem that US school are shit and US private schools are "no-poor allowed" rather than "no Black allowed".

USA need more Morgan Freeman's than another r****** rapper or twerking trash.
He played as US President long before Obama, he played as a God and no one had a problem with him.
If he would run for President, I'd freaking vote for him (if I would be US citizen) over Biden or Trump.
Put Denzel Washington as a VP and they would DESTROY both Biden and Trump

That's great but still doesn't address the white people of this country that have explicitly denied black people all the things I've mentioned for no reason other than the color of their skin. How are you suggesting that be addressed?

[mr.WHO]

School is a start, but what about bank lending? housing opportunities? employment? wages? healthcare?

School is most important, because it jumpstart everything. Better education is better job opportunity for better wages, bank lending and housing opportunity.
Unfortunately there is problem that US school are shit and US private schools are "no-poor allowed" rather than "no Black allowed".

USA need more Morgan Freeman's than another r****** rapper or twerking trash.
He played as US President long before Obama, he played as a God and no one had a problem with him.
If he would run for President, I'd freaking vote for him (if I would be US citizen) over Biden or Trump.
Put Denzel Washington as a VP and they would DESTROY both Biden and Trump

That's great but still doesn't address the white people of this country that have explicitly denied black people all the things I've mentioned for no reason other than the color of their skin. How are you suggesting that be addressed?

OK then how do you select these white people and these black people? Do you think that Irish, Italian or Polish whites who get to US in 1800 and 1900 were slavers? Should all the Black people who came to US after abolition of slavery deserve reparations? What about mixed-race? Will they pay reparations to themselves?
Will you backtrack their whole family tree? We will end back with Medieval feudalism where Nobility (now Black who live from reparations) live from serf (all others who will work for reparations).
How you even tax it? Everyone will have to put race in tax declaration? Or will you just tax the rich and corporations? They will simply leave or do the tax avoidance as always.

[fiksal]

It's not even matter of applying law equally, law is applied equally[1]. It's a matter of applying the right social levers.


[1] ha, well except for all the examples of the opposite obviously, like with police.

[Vertigo 7]

School is most important, because it jumpstart everything. Better education is better job opportunity for better wages, bank lending and housing opportunity.
Unfortunately there is problem that US school are shit and US private schools are "no-poor allowed" rather than "no Black allowed".

USA need more Morgan Freeman's than another r****** rapper or twerking trash.
He played as US President long before Obama, he played as a God and no one had a problem with him.
If he would run for President, I'd freaking vote for him (if I would be US citizen) over Biden or Trump.
Put Denzel Washington as a VP and they would DESTROY both Biden and Trump

That's great but still doesn't address the white people of this country that have explicitly denied black people all the things I've mentioned for no reason other than the color of their skin. How are you suggesting that be addressed?

OK then how do you select these white people and these black people? Do you think that Irish, Italian or Polish whites who get to US in 1800 and 1900 were slavers? Should all the Black people who came to US after abolition of slavery deserve reparations? What about mixed-race? Will they pay reparations to themselves?
Will you backtrack their whole family tree? We will end back with Medieval feudalism where Nobility (now Black who live from reparations) live from serf (all others who will work for reparations).
How you even tax it? Everyone will have to put race in tax declaration? Or will you just tax the rich and corporations? They will simply leave or do the tax avoidance as always.

I'm not talking about slavery. I'm talking about people today, that look at a black man or woman, and say, "no, you don't deserve this job because you're black" or "no, you can't rent an apartment here because you're black" or "no, you can't get a loan because you're black", etc. How do you address white managers that call their black employees "boy" like they're back in the 1800's working a farm? Society clearly isn't going to protect these people, and when they stand up and say they've had enough, they get labeled as thugs and criminals et al. So other than laws like equal opportunity, what do you suggest to do to address this?

[mr.WHO]

I'm not talking about slavery. I'm talking about people today, that look at a black man or woman, and say, "no, you don't deserve this job because you're black" or "no, you can't rent an apartment here because you're black" or "no, you can't get a loan because you're black", etc. How do you address white managers that call their black employees "boy" like they're back in the 1800's working a farm? Society clearly isn't going to protect these people, and when they stand up and say they've had enough, they get labeled as thugs and criminals et al. So other than laws like equal opportunity, what do you suggest to do to address this?

Sorry dude, but I'm from Poland and simply can't comprehend how it's possible in 2020, where everyone has smarthone with camera and microphone. If someone has audacity to say or do something like that, he should be recorded and sued to Kingdom Come. Wasn't USA a contry where people constantly sue each other for much more petty reasons?
I simply cannot imagine a bank/company/manager in 2020 that would say that.
I can imagine something like that in indirect form hidden form, but for this I can say only one thing - Morgan Freeman - be like him and plenty of other respectable Black People. I mentioned Denzel Washington in my previous post -there was a video after that BLM incident, where he descalate Police on Black situation like a champ (he was driving by when was arresting some Black dude).

Black can be trusted and respectable members of society, like all other races, but they must first belive in themselves. If they don't respect themself then no amount of money, reparations or affirmative action will ever change anything.

The funny thing is that you don't have to wait for Trump, Obama or any other president to do this. It would take about 20 years (one generation raised with Morgan Freeman standard).

[Vertigo 7]

I'm not talking about slavery. I'm talking about people today, that look at a black man or woman, and say, "no, you don't deserve this job because you're black" or "no, you can't rent an apartment here because you're black" or "no, you can't get a loan because you're black", etc. How do you address white managers that call their black employees "boy" like they're back in the 1800's working a farm? Society clearly isn't going to protect these people, and when they stand up and say they've had enough, they get labeled as thugs and criminals et al. So other than laws like equal opportunity, what do you suggest to do to address this?

Sorry dude, but I'm from Poland and simply can't comprehend how it's possible in 2020, where everyone has smarthone with camera and microphone. If someone has audacity to say or do something like that, he should be recorded and sued to Kingdom Come. Wasn't USA a contry where people constantly sue each other for much more petty reasons?
I simply cannot imagine a bank/company/manager in 2020 that would say that.
I can imagine something like that in indirect form hidden form, but for this I can say only one thing - Morgan Freeman - be like him and plenty of other respectable Black People. I mentioned Denzel Washington in my previous post -there was a video after that BLM incident, where he descalate Police on Black situation like a champ (he was driving by when was arresting some Black dude).

Black can be trusted and respectable members of society, like all other races, but they must first belive in themselves. If they don't respect themself then no amount of money, reparations or affirmative action will ever change anything.

The funny thing is that you don't have to wait for Trump, Obama or any other president to do this. It would take about 20 years (one generation raised with Morgan Freeman standard).

Well, it's 2020 in the US and good ol' boys still hold white supremacist rallies and wave Nazi and Confederate flags like they were born to it. That's the reality of this nation and the reality that blacks face here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6R_8ZGvNkw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJRfnuHmbfY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZPJZkTmBi4

need I go on?

[mr.WHO]

Sorry to break you buble, but such stories are plenty all over the world - US, UK, Germany, France, Russia, Japan, China.
This is not unique to US racism or Trump fault.

1) First story - manager got fired - very good, the more such cases are exposed the faster such behaviour will be purged.
2) Second story - The guy is a total asshole, but I must admit I'd be vary of that Black guy - not because his skin color, but because tatoos - aren't face tattos considered prison markings across the globe? I as a manager would not employ someone with vast tatoos, no matter the color. If I'd have Black Guy with bad CV, but no tatoos and White Guy with perfect CV, but vast face tatoos, then I'd employ the Black Guy - what can I say? I will discriminate tatoos untill the rest of my days.
3) This is outrage that she got only suspended - teachers should be held to a higher standards, which that person do no meet.

[Vertigo 7]

Sorry to break you buble, but such stories are plenty all over the world - US, UK, Germany, France, Russia, Japan, China.
This is not unique to US racism or Trump fault.

1) First story - manager got fired - very good, the more such cases are exposed the faster such behaviour will be purged.
2) Second story - The guy is a total asshole, but I must admit I'd be vary of that Black guy - not because his skin color, but because tatoos - aren't face tattos considered prison markings across the globe? I as a manager would not employ someone with vast tatoos, no matter the color. If I'd have Black Guy with bad CV, but no tatoos and White Guy with perfect CV, but vast face tatoos, then I'd employ the Black Guy - what can I say? I will discriminate tatoos untill the rest of my days.
3) This is outrage that she got only suspended - teachers should be held to a higher standards, which that person do no meet.

you are so missing the point. I didn't even have to search hard for those. and for ever 1 of those that happens to be recorded, there's dozens more that aren't. Look, maybe in Poland everything is sunshine and unicorn farts. But it sure as hell isn't here. Your assumptions that blacks aren't being discriminated against is just wrong.

[mr.WHO]

you are so missing the point. I didn't even have to search hard for those. and for ever 1 of those that happens to be recorded, there's dozens more that aren't. Look, maybe in Poland everything is sunshine and unicorn farts. But it sure as hell isn't here. Your assumptions that blacks aren't being discriminated against is just wrong.

You will see exactly same videos across the world, different minority, different majority, same videos. The videos you show will look familiar, no matter if you're in USA, Russia, India or China.
Those are bad videos, but seem like you're delude your self with typical american exceptionalism - even your racism or suffering must be exceptional - I recall some dumb US Senator that said US invented slavery.
You're not special and your problems are not special. Even Trump is not special - every country has it's Trump at some point as well as it's Obama.

[Vertigo 7]

you are so missing the point. I didn't even have to search hard for those. and for ever 1 of those that happens to be recorded, there's dozens more that aren't. Look, maybe in Poland everything is sunshine and unicorn farts. But it sure as hell isn't here. Your assumptions that blacks aren't being discriminated against is just wrong.

You will see exactly same videos across the world, different minority, different majority, same videos. The videos you show will look familiar, no matter if you're in USA, Russia, India or China.
Those are bad videos, but seem like you're delude your self with typical american exceptionalism - even your racism or suffering must be exceptional - I recall some dumb US Senator that said US invented slavery.
You're not special and your problems are not special. Even Trump is not special - every country has it's Trump at some point as well as it's Obama.

I never said it was. I'm not speaking for Russia, China, Poland, the UK, or anywhere else. See, I'm not telling you how things are in your country, am I? Why? Because I'm not f'n there to speak intelligently on the subject. You're not here, so 'scuse me for being blunt, but who the hell are you to say what is and isn't happening here?

[mr.WHO]

you are so missing the point. I didn't even have to search hard for those. and for ever 1 of those that happens to be recorded, there's dozens more that aren't. Look, maybe in Poland everything is sunshine and unicorn farts. But it sure as hell isn't here. Your assumptions that blacks aren't being discriminated against is just wrong.

You will see exactly same videos across the world, different minority, different majority, same videos. The videos you show will look familiar, no matter if you're in USA, Russia, India or China.
Those are bad videos, but seem like you're delude your self with typical american exceptionalism - even your racism or suffering must be exceptional - I recall some dumb US Senator that said US invented slavery.
You're not special and your problems are not special. Even Trump is not special - every country has it's Trump at some point as well as it's Obama.

I never said it was. I'm not speaking for Russia, China, Poland, the UK, or anywhere else. See, I'm not telling you how things are in your country, am I? Why? Because I'm not f'n there to speak intelligently on the subject. You're not here, so 'scuse me for being blunt, but who the hell are you to say what is and isn't happening here?

Seriously then what's your point? Racism is bad, no matter the country. Discrimination is bad no matter the country. Assholes caught on video are bad and cringe no matter the country.
Then why do you whine how bad and racist USA is, or how bad Trump is? It's really hard to point to any contry that is OBJECTIVELY better in overall. Trudeau in Canada literally wore blackface.
MAYBE Switzerland - the only real democracy on this planet. Yet even Swiss do have their own quirks and skeletons in the clozet, if you will research them for long enough.

Again if you feel bad over situation in USA because you know nothing about the rest of the world (fits typical American), then you're literally no better than some random dude in North Korea that praise/hate the supreme leader, except that random dude in NK doesn't have access to internet.

[Vertigo 7]

You will see exactly same videos across the world, different minority, different majority, same videos. The videos you show will look familiar, no matter if you're in USA, Russia, India or China.
Those are bad videos, but seem like you're delude your self with typical american exceptionalism - even your racism or suffering must be exceptional - I recall some dumb US Senator that said US invented slavery.
You're not special and your problems are not special. Even Trump is not special - every country has it's Trump at some point as well as it's Obama.

I never said it was. I'm not speaking for Russia, China, Poland, the UK, or anywhere else. See, I'm not telling you how things are in your country, am I? Why? Because I'm not f'n there to speak intelligently on the subject. You're not here, so 'scuse me for being blunt, but who the hell are you to say what is and isn't happening here?

Seriously then what's your point? Racism is bad, no matter the country. Discrimination is bad no matter the country. Assholes caught on video are bad and cringe no matter the country.
Then why do you whine how bad and racist USA is, or how bad Trump is? It's really hard to point to any contry that is OBJECTIVELY better in overall. Trudeau in Canada literally wore blackface.
MAYBE Switzerland - the only real democracy on this planet. Yet even Swiss do have their own quirks and skeletons in the clozet, if you will research them for long enough.

Again if you feel bad over situation in USA because you know nothing about the rest of the world (fits typical American), then you're literally no better than some random dude in North Korea that praise/hate the supreme leader, except that random dude in NK doesn't have access to internet.

Except I'm not making claims about other countries, how good or bad they have it, and what issues they're facing. That's all you've been doing in this thread and the covid one. You're making wild assumptions about my country based on what? Your experiences in your country? Something you read somewhere once upon a time? Something some random dude said something that happened to fit a narrative you like so you assert it must be true? You can't know until you see it for yourself.

And for the record, I have spent most of my life in this country minus the time I spent deployed in the Navy. While my experiences in other countries were admittedly limited to a just a few days here and there, what I saw from the people in the countries I visited were a night and day difference from what I see in this country.

And also, I asked you 3 times what you suggest we do to address the issues of discrimination in this country in place of equal opportunity laws. You never answered that question. You denied it happens, I gave you 3 out of thousands of examples of it happening, then you say it happens everywhere. I'm confused... if it happens everywhere, that means it happens here, right? And if it happens here, and I tell you that's the reason that legislature exists in the first place (which I'll also add is the only reason any punitive action was taken against the offending individuals in those examples), then what exactly is the point you're trying to make? I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and have no point to make.

[pjknibbs]

Poland is the place where Microsoft's local office famously photoshopped a black man out of an advert:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/microsof ... p_n_269366

I'm really not sure there's a lot of grounds for saying that there's no discrimination against black people happening there, based on things like that.

[mr.WHO]

Poland is the place where Microsoft's local office famously photoshopped a black man out of an advert:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/microsof ... p_n_269366

I'm really not sure there's a lot of grounds for saying that there's no discrimination against black people happening there, based on things like that.

So did the Disney with John Boyega for Star Was Add in China. The common factor for both cases is american corporation.

BTW I know and I saw that Microsoft picture and I saw myself the version with Black guy instead white guy - seems like some random dude in Microsoft USA project his racism to other contry, isnt it?

There are plenty of ads with non-white in Poland and no one has a problem with it despite 99% white population.

And also, I asked you 3 times what you suggest we do to address the issues of discrimination in this country in place of equal opportunity laws. You never answered that question. You denied it happens, I gave you 3 out of thousands of examples of it happening, then you say it happens everywhere. I'm confused... if it happens everywhere, that means it happens here, right? And if it happens here, and I tell you that's the reason that legislature exists in the first place (which I'll also add is the only reason any punitive action was taken against the offending individuals in those examples), then what exactly is the point you're trying to make? I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and have no point to make.

I have two points, in accordance to this topic:
1) to stop whining how bad US racism or Trump are.
2) Get a proper perspective.

Racism exist and I never denied it in any of my post.
If you care about US in particular then it's perfectly fine, but you need reference point, which can only be provided by comparing to other countries or to the past.
I provided solution in my post, which you seem to ignore.


Ever heard about "untouchables" in India?
Ever heard about Ujgur concentration camps in China?
Ever heard about REAL modern day slavery across North Africa and middle East?
Ever heard about Israel planning to annex West Bank, which will be economic death sentence for Palestine (and this is with Trump stamp of approval and somehow no one blame him for that)?

Then you show me a video about old guy calling other guy a "boy" or "N-word", tell me about some guys waving confederate flags and some statues (which BTW I'm all for removal as they are "rebel" statues).

Really? REALLY?

Modern day US racism is a childs play, comparing to what was in US 50 years ago and absolutely non-existant if you compare to what was in US 200 years ago. If you would pull 100 slaves from back 50Y and back 200Y then ALL OF THEM would love modern US and would not want to get back.

[Vertigo 7]

And also, I asked you 3 times what you suggest we do to address the issues of discrimination in this country in place of equal opportunity laws. You never answered that question. You denied it happens, I gave you 3 out of thousands of examples of it happening, then you say it happens everywhere. I'm confused... if it happens everywhere, that means it happens here, right? And if it happens here, and I tell you that's the reason that legislature exists in the first place (which I'll also add is the only reason any punitive action was taken against the offending individuals in those examples), then what exactly is the point you're trying to make? I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and have no point to make.

I have two points, in accordance to this topic:
1) to stop whining how bad US racism or Trump are.
2) Get a proper perspective.

Racism exist and I never denied it in any of my post.
If you care about US in particular then it's perfectly fine, but you need reference point, which can only be provided by comparing to other countries or to the past.
I provided solution in my post, which you seem to ignore.


Ever heard about "untouchables" in India?
Ever heard about Ujgur concentration camps in China?
Ever heard about REAL modern day slavery across North Africa and middle East?
Ever heard about Israel planning to annex West Bank, which will be economic death sentence for Palestine (and this is with Trump stamp of approval and somehow no one blame him for that)?

Then you show me a video about old guy calling other guy a "boy" or "N-word", tell me about some guys waving confederate flags and some statues (which BTW I'm all for removal as they are "rebel" statues).

Really? REALLY?

Modern day US racism is a childs play, comparing to what was in US 50 years ago and absolutely non-existant if you compare to what was in US 200 years ago. If you would pull 100 slaves from back 50Y and back 200Y then ALL OF THEM would love modern US and would not want to get back.

You must get Fox "News" in Poland. I've never seen such a blatant Hannity rant on here before from someone not in this country.

Firstly, I will continue to oppose racism here, and anywhere else for that matter. I will stop when it ends or I'm dead. Until then, you can piss off if you don't like it.
Secondly, I will continue to oppose Trump and all he stands for because of the afore mentioned reason as well as the equally important reason of our democracy and the rule of law. If you don't like it, refer to above.

I'm not comparing US troubles to any other country. You're doing that. Stop it. You're making yourself look stupid. You have no idea what it's like here. Just because it's not as bad as it was before today doesn't mean it's not still bad.

[mr.WHO]

You must get Fox "News" in Poland. I've never seen such a blatant Hannity rant on here before from someone not in this country.

Firstly, I will continue to oppose racism here, and anywhere else for that matter. I will stop when it ends or I'm dead. Until then, you can piss off if you don't like it.
Secondly, I will continue to oppose Trump and all he stands for because of the afore mentioned reason as well as the equally important reason of our democracy and the rule of law. If you don't like it, refer to above.

I'm not comparing US troubles to any other country. You're doing that. Stop it. You're making yourself look stupid. You have no idea what it's like here. Just because it's not as bad as it was before today doesn't mean it's not still bad.

Oh how fine of you and your American exceptionalism.
I don't know nothing right?
I don't know how it it to loose familiy members to enthnic cleansing.
I don't know how it is to loose family to war.
I don't know how it is to have your own capital city burned to the ground like Hiroshima.
I don't know how it is to have everything robbed from you by roaming bands of marauder soldiers.
I don't know how it is to dig out unexploded shells in your backyards every year.
I don't know how it is to be a slave in your own homeland, colonized and oppresed by 3 Empires.
I don't know how it is to see all you your labor destroyed every 50-70 years for last 400 years.


Yeah, I don't know anything, because some guy waving Confederate flag is literal Hitler and deadly thread to existence of USA.

Oh, BTW I don't know how it is to experience Hitler himself and his good buddy Stalin having a party at my backyard - my backyard was point blank on German-Soviet border after they destroyed Poland.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

Is it a race between who's the most racist, here?

Racism is everywhere, but not every (western) country has a recent history of slavery and blatant discrimination ("if you're black you can't sit on the bus" is less than a lifetime ago) like US has. So, I'd say the problem there is different than (almost) anywhere else. Better or worse I don't know, but it's different. It's inherent to society, not to small-ish groups like in Italy, for instance (where in my opinion racism is a big issue, because basically we're racist with everybody else: south-italians, gypsies, africans, slavic, french, german, south-american, pineapple pizza eaters, people using bacon to cook carbonara, ... literally everyone).

And Swiss are a bad example of non-racist people, honestly.