Trump

[mr.WHO]

Trump really has a point calling them fake news

No he doesnt and dont even try to make some sort of false equivalency between the need for Trump to use that term whenever "News" Media is striking his ego and when its to criticize him. Yes media has issues, most of them are related to how people WANT sensationalism and how it pays far more, so yes they tend to make a fuss, but MOST of time they do report things that happen, thus qualify as news. Its YOUR job to then go and make up your own mind.

I never made an equivalency between them. Trump has his own agenda and his own way to manipulate things.
What I'm afraid is that average Joe is not aware of it and will think that one side is angel and other is literal devil.
I totally agree with your last sentence, but most of people don't take an effort to do this - if they would then overall state of journalism would be much better.

- in NY city - police weld Jewish community gate playground, yet they do nothing to hundreds of rioters, and tens of thosand protesters (we suppose to have an epidemy, right?)

Weren't you just complaining about media twisting things? Or does it just not apply to you?

Can you tell me what I twisted here? I really would like to see other side of this story, because it seem rudiculous to me.

lets jail single mother hairdresser who went to work agains lockdown to feed her family, but in the same time lets let out criminals from prison because of COVID.

Again you make odd comparisons. What has the need to release people from jail to increase inmates safety with people breaking the law? Also she got 7 days and served 2, but I guess that didnt serve your point.

So lets clear prison to make it safer, but then jail people to make them less safe?
It should be either lets empty and do not jail - but then you have no reason to enforce quarantine
or
Jail everyone and do not clear prison - you will have spike in prisons, but keep outside population in check and enforce quarantine and law equally (Romans said "Harsh law, but law").

Mixing something in between is innefective and rudiculous.

Your posts reads just like a twitter/Facebook feed, the same thing you were just criticizing.

I could elaborate, but my post are already too long - no one comes to forum to read book size monologue.

https://docsouth.unc.edu/commland/monument/614/
Here's a statue of a nondescript confederate soldier. Basically just a random white dude with a rifle.
Erected in 1959 in front of the Alexander County Courthouse in Taylorsville, NC.
There are 3 inscriptions on the statue.

on the front, in bronze, it reads:

THE YOUNG MAN WHO ADORNS THIS PEDESTAL / WAS KILLED AT GETTYSBURG, JULY3, 1863. / PERHAPS HIS DYING LIPS WERE MURMURING: / “OH, FATE OF THE JUST, THOU GAVEST ME / THIS BITTER CUP, AND I BOW TO THY / BEHEST AND DRINK IT UP.” / HE WAS A LAD OF “THE OLD SOUTH” WHOSE / NAME IS KNOWN BUT TO ME. / “HOW BRAVELY HER SONS CAN SAY FAREWELL.”

Meaningless and romanticized glorification of serving in the confederate army.

on the front, in granite, it reads:

FROM 1861-1865 THE HEROIC SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF / THE OLD SOUTH UNDER THE GREATEST GENERALS OF ALL TIMES / ROBERT E. LEE AND STONEWALL JACKSON FOUGHT WITH / GALLANTRY UNEQUALED IN ALL THE ANNALS OF HISTORY. / NOT FOR THE PRESERVATION OF SLAVERY BUT FOR OUR / GREATEST HERITAGE STATES RIGHTS. THOUGH THEY FAILED / THE MEMORIES OF THEIR HEROIC DEEDS WILL LINGER IN THE / HEARTS AND MINDS OF MEN LONG AFTER THESE STONES / HAVE CRUMBLED INTO DUST. / V.O. BECKHAM 1958

More propaganda and romanticizing the confederacy. Not to mention the often used juxtaposition lie of states rights vs slavery.

Can someone explain to me, why USA, who is The Union, have statues of rebels angainst The Union?
I mean I can, to some point understand the statue of common soldier, who fought and died in Civil War, so that families, who are not back in Union could comemmorate...but statues of leaders? No matter how good and noble Lee would be, he was a leader of armed rebellion. He should be considered lucky not to be executed, but having a statue? It's like having a statue of Spartacus in front of Colloseum in Ancient Rome.

I'd be perfectly fine with removal of most of Confederate statues, but what the hell statue of Grant, Pulaski, Roosevelt and Churchill have to do with this?
Is education system in US and UK so low that mob topple any random statue without readign the name plate?

[Ketraar]

Can you tell me what I twisted here? I really would like to see other side of this story, because it seem rudiculous to me.

Looking at the news and seeing how there are Police in ARMORED vehicles handling protesters, is not something I would have called as "not doing anything", hence the twisting of the facts. You simplified things so much to make your point valid, but it had nothing to do with facts or news. I was pointing out that this is exactly the tactic used by sensationalist media, which you were being critical of.

So lets clear prison to make it safer, but then jail people to make them less safe?
It should be either lets empty and do not jail - but then you have no reason to enforce quarantine

Again with the condensation. The people handling the jails are not the same people handling enforcement of quarantine laws. There is a pubic health issue wrt to jails that needs addressing and you can have opinions if its handled well or not, but it has NO correlation with enforcement of laws, especially cherry picking nonsensical examples.

I could elaborate, but my post are already too long - no one comes to forum to read book size monologue.

My criticism was related to its quality, not quantity. They way I read your post I get the notion you have a something deeper to say and are using very condensed and out context comparisons to somehow bring across that point. I'm not saying how you should post, but cant stand by and not address it.

MFG

Ketraar

[felter]

The problem is Trump neither understands not cares about what happens to others when it comes to the virus, all he cares about is that the virus is an inconvenience to him personally making money. I'm sure his two sons have moaned that they are not making money due to the virus, as people are not staying at their hotels and their golf courses are closed. That is all he cares about, if someone or a lot of someone's have to die for him to make money then so be it, so long as he is personally making money.

Al this talk about a second wave is pretty stupid as we are pretty much still in the first wave. The virus has to be gone for a second wave to happen and that is not happening and it's not just Trump either. Johnson is trying to give the impression that it is all over, that everything can go back to normal but there was another 154 confirmed deaths from the virus just yesterday, which is more than when the lockdown started, does that sound like the first wave has ended that things can go back to normal. Trump and Johnson are just the exact same, both don't care about anything other than themselves and they don't care who gets hurt or dies from their actions.

[Alan Phipps]

"Johnson is trying to give the impression that it is all over" I don't think that you and I could possibly have listened to same final daily briefing from Boris then (23 June). He was quite adamant that it is certainly not over by a very long way. Still, that's about Covid & Boris and not Trump.

[matthewfarmery]

As for Trump, he could do better, he could lead by example, he could have called off the campaign rallies, (even though at least 8 have tested positive. And yes, he only cares about money and having another 4 years in office, otherwise, he might end up spending 10 years in a prison cell, but with the way things are, I'm not sure he will even see a prison cell? but at any rate, he is scared of going to prison. And as long as he remains in office, he can do what he likes.

He could have at least acknowledged the virus sooner, he now using racist slang on this virus. he attending rallies, and most if not all, in the second rally, weren't even wearing face masks. its little things like that, he could at least do better in. and lead by example. But instead, he just is greedy, corrupt, and not working for USA, only himself.

As for a second wave, if we rest and think it's all over, it will flare up again. Sending the wrong messages, (iE Trump) and telling people to slow down testing, telling people that it's nearly over. isn't going to help the US or anywhere else. As Trump is nothing but a huge fool how has completely miss calculated this entire outbreak, and the continue damage its doing.

four more years of Trump, and more then likely things will go down the sink. And he won't just pull the USA in that, but the rest of the world too.

Getting him out of office will be the best thing for everyone.

[Mightysword]

Your entire comment was 100% emotional. You talked about your childhood. You talked about why you like other people to have the freedom to put up statues of Lee. That is emotional. Your reasoning for keeping statues of Robert E. Lee is as emotional as the view of people who want to remove them.

The difference is I'm willingly to accept both sides of the argument, if only if history is preserved objectively. You can still find south Vietnam symbols and record in Vietnam of course ... inside the museums. But in those we are not just Southerner, we were traitor, turncoat, servant of imperialist ...etc... You are already seen plenty demonstration of sweeping generalization in this thread that the Southerner is anything but the most condensed people. Emotion or not, I do not wish to see such a whitewashing of generations no matter how long ago it is. If it's not for such common display of overly generalization, I would not be against the idea of putting these symbols away. Robert E. Lee is a man of honor, loyalty to his home state, a great general, and fought to preserve slavery. I have no problem what that statement, my problem is I see people have no intention to preserve any but the last part.

Frankly with the intensity on display by some people here, I wonder if there is more animosity between them and the Confederate now than between the Northerners and Southerners themselves right after the civil war. You know, my dad told me a lot of story about his time during the war, but I rarely remember he took pride in "I was fighting the commie or I am a fighter for freedom!", for him it's just the war, his deed, and his struggle. The self-righteousness is usually proclaimed much profoundly by those who weren't there themselves. Not that I don't understand though, as much as I disagree I do understand it psychologically, after all I probably hate commie more than my dad himself.

Americans however are not Confederates and Northerners now, they are one people. Their descendants are not persecuted. And the ones who lived during the Civil War are all dead, they have no use in statues.

First, you are deciding on something you obviously do not care about that it has no use for the people who obviously care a whole more than you.

Secondly, you DO aware that angle of argument can also be made on the other side? In fact, it has been made from the other side. Without expressing my own opinion on it, I will bring it to your attention: like wise, it has been over 150 years since the end of the civil war, why the people of today still proclaim the pain associate with symbols from such a long time ago. Again, not my argument, but do aware that the argument you're using can be appropriated for both sides.

Can someone explain to me, why USA, who is The Union, have statues of rebels angainst The Union?
I mean I can, to some point understand the statue of common soldier, who fought and died in Civil War, so that families, who are not back in Union could comemmorate...but statues of leaders? No matter how good and noble Lee would be, he was a leader of armed rebellion. He should be considered lucky not to be executed, but having a statue? It's like having a statue of Spartacus in front of Colloseum in Ancient Rome.

Perhaps this piece of history will help you understand: when Lee surrendered to Grant at the Appomattox Court House, he was very surprised at the generous term Grant offered his soldiers, and believed it would help starting the reconciliation process. When Lee left and the north soldiers erupted into cheer and celebration, Grant shushed them and said something like this: "the war is over, they are now once again our brothers, we should not celebrate their defeat." And given the context this is the top commanding general of the Union who later on become the President, it's not that surprising really.

But to us outsider, like you may find it hard to find an understanding, or like me see in it a source of inspiration. But that's a treasured American value. I'm afraid that by letting the current event cloud their eyes and only see the ugly side of it, some American are willingly to let go something that either they don't appreciate, or perhaps never aware that they had in their heritage.

[Ketraar]

I'll make you a deal then (not that its mine to make but hey, its 2020 )

You can keep all statues of confederacy and the confederate battle flag and all, but in return you do away with teaching creationism in schools and create reparations programs (doesnt need to be monetary) to even the odds. Until then, all symbols of oppression can be disposed, regardless if they are only minor oppression.

MFG

Ketraar

Before the inevitable response arrives, yes I'm aware this is a ridiculous proposition, but then again so is keeping statues of racist people.

[mr.WHO]

As for Trump, he could do better, he could lead by example....

Getting him out of office will be the best thing for everyone.

And when was the last time when Western politician lead by example and didn't made any mistakes? I think that Western politicant become brain dead when Soviet Union collapsed and they were no longer under deadly thread.

You can use the same justification against Churchill after Gallipoli, Roosevelt after Pearl Harbor and many more.
It's just the greatest epidemy of our times, I'm sure anyone would do better...6 months in hindsight.

The truth is that everyone from Goverments, WHO and media across the world were running circles chaotically in last 6 months.
"It's just a flu, no it's not just a flu", "masks don't work, now masks work", "but the toilet paper", "this medicine don't work, this medicine work".

Literally everyone become bipolar pshycho trying to listen to this crap. Trump failed, so did the WHO, mass media and multiple other goverments and entities.
The only thing to get out of this farce is to end lockdown, eat healthy (I'm looking at you fat Americans) and wore a freaking mask.
Don't delude yourself with vacine/cure that migth come or not, might work or not, might have side-effects or not.

Can you tell me what I twisted here? I really would like to see other side of this story, because it seem rudiculous to me.

Looking at the news and seeing how there are Police in ARMORED vehicles handling protesters, is not something I would have called as "not doing anything", hence the twisting of the facts. You simplified things so much to make your point valid, but it had nothing to do with facts or news. I was pointing out that this is exactly the tactic used by sensationalist media, which you were being critical of.

I could say the very same cherry picking about your example. In NY they deployed armoured cars at the beginning, then bug out after negative media coverage and went to chase those who will not fight back (my example of Jewish community, but the same example could be made for Churches in several other states or that hairdresser).
The whole point of law enforcement is to apply it equally. Either you pacify everyone, or do nothing to anyone - covid or not.
I'd expect that, if we have DEADLY EPIDEMY, then enforcement should be swift and harsh on everyone, right? Or do we do not have an epidemy? Or maybe covid is smart enough to target one group, but ignore random dense mob in the middle of the city? If people can gather by thousands without the consequences, then the entire lockdown is a joke and Trump is right on ending it.

So lets clear prison to make it safer, but then jail people to make them less safe?
It should be either lets empty and do not jail - but then you have no reason to enforce quarantine

Again with the condensation. The people handling the jails are not the same people handling enforcement of quarantine laws. There is a pubic health issue wrt to jails that needs addressing and you can have opinions if its handled well or not, but it has NO correlation with enforcement of laws, especially cherry picking nonsensical examples.

No correlation between jail and law enforcement? Without a jail, how do you enforce the law? Shoot people? Pat them on the head and say "bad person, bad person"? Fine them? and if they don't pay then...I don't know, jail them? or shoot them?
It doesn't matter that prisons are operate by different people than law enforcement - this is one system - one is redundant without the other.

Ultimately what we have now is: we let people out because of COVID, while we jail people because of COVID - how is it cherry picking? We decrease outside COVID thread by jailing lockdown breakers, but we increase jail COVID thread becasue we jail people in place of the ones that we let go. Then, if we say that prison COVID thread is lower priority, then why do we let people out of the prison in the first place?

If we agree there is a health problem in prison due to bad adminsitration, then we should agree that people not able to work is also due to bad administration.
If we let prisoners free, then we also should let free people who break lockdown (that hairdresses was eventually let out after 2 day, but this is 2 days too much - also she has been fined, while she went to work because she was short on money in the first place).
If we say that lockdown is more important, then we should keep prisoners in prison and lock people who break it too.
I don't have problem with either, but I have problem with someone trying to justify something in between.

I could elaborate, but my post are already too long - no one comes to forum to read book size monologue.

My criticism was related to its quality, not quantity. They way I read your post I get the notion you have a something deeper to say and are using very condensed and out context comparisons to somehow bring across that point. I'm not saying how you should post, but cant stand by and not address it.

MFG

Ketraar

I hate short form of twitter message, but in the same time, single post that takes half forum page are bad too. I had a bad habit of writing too long post, so I try to condense.
In the short, my message is that the law should be applied equally and consistently - inequallity and inconsistency what what put US in this mess in the first place! Now in regards to COVID, protests and riots, they try to fix it by introducing even more inequality and inconsistency.
Coming from former communist country, I know too well what is at the end of that road.

Trump might be dumb, might not know what he's doing, but at least trying to cut down the lockdown crap - see how US got nuts after 3 months of lockdown? Wonder how it will be after 6 months of lockdown? I expect literall Mad Max people driving cars with spikes and heads on a pike. Seattle will probably have this within two weeks.

I'll make you a deal then (not that its mine to make but hey, its 2020 )

You can keep all statues of confederacy and the confederate battle flag and all, but in return you do away with teaching creationism in schools and create reparations programs (doesnt need to be monetary) to even the odds. Until then, all symbols of oppression can be disposed, regardless if they are only minor oppression.

I don't care for rebel statues, but doesn't US have entire school program that gives Black people bonus points and take away points from Asian?
To me, this seems like reparations for slavery and Pearl Harbor in a convinient package

[fiksal]

Americans however are not Confederates and Northerners now, they are one people. Their descendants are not persecuted. And the ones who lived during the Civil War are all dead, they have no use in statues.

First, you are deciding on something you obviously do not care about that it has no use for the people who obviously care a whole more than you.

Secondly, you DO aware that angle of argument can also be made on the other side? In fact, it has been made from the other side. Without expressing my own opinion on it, I will bring it to your attention: like wise, it has been over 150 years since the end of the civil war, why the people of today still proclaim the pain associate with symbols from such a long time ago. Again, not my argument, but do aware that the argument you're using can be appropriated for both sides.

This was to address the issue with not punishing the South, that you draw a parallel with when talking about Vietnam. To which I said - that's no longer a concern, since those people dont exist anymore.

Punishing or not however I think is indeed irrelevant to whether or not have the statues. So yes, I agree we can drop that whole argument along with the example from Vietnam.

Lets get back to the actual issue - the statues themselves, - when they were put up, why, and the fact that they neither represent history, nor reality and have lies inscribed by them, as pointed out by Vertigo.

[CBJ]

I have moved a completely non-Trump related COVID-19 post to the appropriate thread. Next time people ignore my requests I will just split their posts out and lock them.

[Mightysword]

I don't care for rebel statues, but doesn't US have entire school program that gives Black people bonus points and take away points from Asian?
To me, this seems like reparations for slavery and Pearl Harbor in a convinient package

It's called affirmative policy. As an Asian I has been refraining from bringing it up, less giving people reason to make assumption. Suffice to say though, something like that is a good example of if you want to fight true racism, this is the wrong way to go about it.

[fiksal]

I suppose, I, Mightysword and the rest can move out the statues discussion as well.

Anyone feel like continuing it?

[matthewfarmery]

Also I found this, basically Trump is trying to act tough both on immigration and may try to impose tariffs on both the EU and Canada.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/24/busi ... index.html

While this might might score him some points, but this could very well and very likely backfire on him. As the US did similar during the great depression. And that hit America hard.

"This is exactly the wrong move at the wrong time. We're inching toward the same mistakes we made during the Great Depression," said Joe Brusuelas, chief economist at RSM International.

Again, shows that Trump has little clue on what he is doing, or understands what could go wrong with this latest set of moves, if they does goes ahead and enforces them.

[mr.WHO]

I don't care for rebel statues, but doesn't US have entire school program that gives Black people bonus points and take away points from Asian?
To me, this seems like reparations for slavery and Pearl Harbor in a convinient package

It's called affirmative policy. As an Asian I has been refraining from bringing it up, less giving people reason to make assumption. Suffice to say though, something like that is a good example of if you want to fight true racism, this is the wrong way to go about it.

If you read my previous post, you might find that I'm rather hardliner on equal application of law.
I unconditionally belive that all people should be tread equally no matter the skin color or sex (chromosome based: XY, XX, androgyne - nothing more - Gender studies are American BS as much as creationism).
Then I see affirmative policy and I'm dumfounded.
"Lets not discriminate...but lets disciminate just a little?"

Wasn't Republicans and Trump trying to end affirmative policy?

Also I found this, basically Trump is trying to act tough both on immigration and may try to impose tariffs on both the EU and Canada.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/24/busi ... index.html

While this might might score him some points, but this could very well and very likely backfire on him. As the US did similar during the great depression. And that hit America hard.

"This is exactly the wrong move at the wrong time. We're inching toward the same mistakes we made during the Great Depression," said Joe Brusuelas, chief economist at RSM International.

Again, shows that Trump has little clue on what he is doing, or understands what could go wrong with this latest set of moves, if they does goes ahead and enforces them.

Wasn't exactly same things being told when Trump end NAFTA? Ultimately he made a deal that was to replaced it. Same was the end goal with Tarrif war with China before COVID hit and derailed everything.
I assume that the same strategy would with EU - push them hard as a stick negotiation strategy, then present carrot of a new deal.
This is negotiation 101, hardly a bad thing (except that if you try to pull the same thing for a 3rd time, then EU would be stupid to get caught in it).
You might argue it's bad to run a country like a real estate company, but it still better than trying to run country like a day care.

[Vertigo 7]

https://docsouth.unc.edu/commland/monument/614/
Here's a statue of a nondescript confederate soldier. Basically just a random white dude with a rifle.
Erected in 1959 in front of the Alexander County Courthouse in Taylorsville, NC.
There are 3 inscriptions on the statue.

on the front, in bronze, it reads:

THE YOUNG MAN WHO ADORNS THIS PEDESTAL / WAS KILLED AT GETTYSBURG, JULY3, 1863. / PERHAPS HIS DYING LIPS WERE MURMURING: / “OH, FATE OF THE JUST, THOU GAVEST ME / THIS BITTER CUP, AND I BOW TO THY / BEHEST AND DRINK IT UP.” / HE WAS A LAD OF “THE OLD SOUTH” WHOSE / NAME IS KNOWN BUT TO ME. / “HOW BRAVELY HER SONS CAN SAY FAREWELL.”

Meaningless and romanticized glorification of serving in the confederate army.

on the front, in granite, it reads:

FROM 1861-1865 THE HEROIC SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF / THE OLD SOUTH UNDER THE GREATEST GENERALS OF ALL TIMES / ROBERT E. LEE AND STONEWALL JACKSON FOUGHT WITH / GALLANTRY UNEQUALED IN ALL THE ANNALS OF HISTORY. / NOT FOR THE PRESERVATION OF SLAVERY BUT FOR OUR / GREATEST HERITAGE STATES RIGHTS. THOUGH THEY FAILED / THE MEMORIES OF THEIR HEROIC DEEDS WILL LINGER IN THE / HEARTS AND MINDS OF MEN LONG AFTER THESE STONES / HAVE CRUMBLED INTO DUST. / V.O. BECKHAM 1958

More propaganda and romanticizing the confederacy. Not to mention the often used juxtaposition lie of states rights vs slavery.

Can someone explain to me, why USA, who is The Union, have statues of rebels angainst The Union?
I mean I can, to some point understand the statue of common soldier, who fought and died in Civil War, so that families, who are not back in Union could comemmorate...but statues of leaders? No matter how good and noble Lee would be, he was a leader of armed rebellion. He should be considered lucky not to be executed, but having a statue? It's like having a statue of Spartacus in front of Colloseum in Ancient Rome.

I'd be perfectly fine with removal of most of Confederate statues, but what the hell statue of Grant, Pulaski, Roosevelt and Churchill have to do with this?
Is education system in US and UK so low that mob topple any random statue without readign the name plate?

Because these statues were erected in the face of every single civil rights momentum blacks had in the US from the early 1900's on as a monument to white supremacy. There is no educational purpose to them. None, notta, zip, zilch. Whites, especially in the South, never wanted to see blacks gain any semblance of equality in American society. So they, along with the KKK, began building these monuments everywhere a black person would go to remind them who their superiors are.

Read up on this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Caus ... oic%20one.

[Ketraar]

If you read my previous post, you might find that I'm rather hardliner on equal application of law.
I unconditionally belive that all people should be tread equally no matter the skin color or sex (chromosome based: XY, XX, androgyne - nothing more - Gender studies are American BS as much as creationism).
Then I see affirmative policy and I'm dumfounded.
"Lets not discriminate...but lets disciminate just a little?"

Did you not see the other lady's video wrt to that? Lets have "equality" now, sorry that we stumped you for 400 years and created a system that makes it impossible for people to get out of a spiral. But yes, equality... whomp whomp...

First of all there is no equality if opportunity and access, especially for education, if its not available EQUALLY to all, hence you have to consider so called positive discrimination to allow those with systemic disadvantages to have a fighting chance. THEN we can have a conversation about equality. Goes for all sorts of things, from sex, ethnic and economic heritage. Yes I'm sure Bolt would still catch m,it if we ran 100m and I start at the 50m mark, but most people wont and that is just not equal, no matter how you spin it.

This is what many dont get, its no where near equal atm, in fact its abysmally uneven and people demand change, which means some people will have to give up something if balance is to be had, starting with symbols is but a way to vent, eventually real power and money will have to moved from those who have it to those who dont. There is no way around that.

MFG

Ketraar

[mr.WHO]

Did you not see the other lady's video wrt to that? Lets have "equality" now, sorry that we stumped you for 400 years and created a system that makes it impossible for people to get out of a spiral. But yes, equality... whomp whomp...

The problem is that only equality gives a chance to actually progress.
You delude yourself if you think that you can fix one inequality with another.
"A discriminate B for 400 years?", then "lets discriminate A for 400 years", nothing could go wrong, right?

It might seem just, but it will eventually you end up with reverse slavery - how this will fix anything?
You can argue that slavery was much worse than school discrimination, but then we can just degrade to suffering bidding all the way to Cain and Abel, or Adam and Eve.

There is a spiral of systemic discrimination, but it's class based, not race based.
So called "white trash" have as much trouble to get out of it as some random Black dude in the ghetto - this is real problem across US and entire world (maybe except Switzerland) - having affirmative discrimination won't fix it.


P.S. Please let's end here, to not drift any further - no matter how much I try, I won't be able to connect this to Trump :/

[Vertigo 7]

What would you suggest as an alternative? Execute people that discriminate? Let discrimination continue?

[mr.WHO]

What would you suggest as an alternative? Execute people that discriminate? Let discrimination continue?

For start lets apply anti-discrimination law equally.
I'm perfectly fine with punishing people who say "<insert ANY race/sex here> is inferior/superior" - You kill two birds with one stone - your reduce both supremacy and discrimination movements.
Second - instead of affirmative action, I'd be perfectly fine for some kind of charity fund (with US goverment financial participation, albeit not majority) where additional school/university seat could be provided for Black and Indian people.

You could say it not much different, but without that fund those seats would not exist at all, so you cannot say that this seat would "take seats from white/asian", so no one is actually discriminated.
It would still pull some taxpayer money, but this is like any other social program (e.g. war on poverty). If we assume that America was build on slavery, then there would be no better candidates to pay than American corporations. With all this BLM, I could expect that many corporations would be happy to donate their money to that charity


Unfortunately this doesn't solve the whole poverty problem (e.g. "white trash" I mentioned in previous mail - albeit there are many scholarships for them, so this would be "equal"), but still it's a good start.

One logical problem would be that it would contradict my first point (apply anti-discrimination law equally), but it's a charity money, so it's a charity right to define where these money goes. No one scream that charity for disabled children discriminate elderly.

[Vertigo 7]

What would you suggest as an alternative? Execute people that discriminate? Let discrimination continue?

For start lets apply anti-discrimination law equally.
I'm perfectly fine with punishing people who say "<insert ANY race/sex here> is inferior/superior" - You kill two birds with one stone - your reduce both supremacy and discrimination movements.
Second - instead of affirmative action, I'd be perfectly fine for some kind of charity fund (with US goverment financial participation, albeit not majority) where additional school/university seat could be provided for Black and Indian people.

You could say it not much different, but without that fund those seats would not exist at all, so you cannot say that this seat would "take seats from white/asian", so no one is actually discriminated.
It would still pull some taxpayer money, but this is like any other social program (e.g. war on poverty). If we assume that America was build on slavery, then there would be no better candidates to pay than American corporations. With all this BLM, I could expect that many corporations would be happy to donate their money to that charity


Unfortunately this doesn't solve the whole poverty problem (e.g. "white trash" I mentioned in previous mail - albeit there are many scholarships for them, so this would be "equal"), but still it's a good start.

One logical problem would be that it would contradict my first point (apply anti-discrimination law equally), but it's a charity money, so it's a charity right to define where these money goes. No one scream that charity for disabled children discriminate elderly.

School is a start, but what about bank lending? housing opportunities? employment? wages? healthcare?

Equal opportunity laws weren't put into place on a whim. It was put there for the same reason that warning labels on bottles of bleach tell you not to drink it - because someone did it. Only in this case, a lot of people did it and still do it. I said before, if people don't like this type of patchwork legislature, then society needs to change to make it unnecessary. If anything, Trump being in office proves that society can't be trusted to do the right thing.