Trump

[fiksal]

What are you even on about anymore


So this is the prefect time for Marlin Manson? Maybe some GWAR? One did visit Robert E Lee recently

Do you have the fortitude to admit that Robert E. Lee was more than what today's mob says he is? I call him honorable. Historically this is how he was remembered.

Words don't necessarily take strength. If I were to say it it's at most take some finger power, on my part.

I think you assume I care about taking down Lee's statues. I don't see why that should be up, and I don't oppose their removal. Unless I am about to find out something worse about him.

So, I don't know who he was as a man. I don't know if he was honorable. He is just a name in history.

But whatever man he was he also chose to be on the wrong side of history. To me the only thing that defines him as a man is his choice. And that is what I recall.

I remember him for that, the battles he won, lost and surrender to Grant. Didnt have a reason to explorer further.



EDIT: That quote of his, that Vertigo7 reminded about is a good one. I give him kudos for that. I agree that maybe statues to generals shouldn't be put up.

[Mightysword]

So, I don't know who he was as a man. I don't know if he was honorable. He is just a name in history.

But whatever man he was he also chose to be on the wrong side of history. To me the only thing that defines him as a man is his choice. And that is what I recall.

I remember him for that, the battles he won, lost and surrender to Grant. Didnt have a reason to explorer further.

And ... this is exactly what people like me afraid, and have zero faith in the ' it belongs to the museum' movement that it would be able to preserve history in its authenticate form, with an objective unbiased Len. YOU may not care, but others do. I know I do, and I say that as an asian with no history of racism and no stake in the north south struggle, I say this as an 'outsider' with yellow skin.

Do you know that prior to the war, Lincoln wanted to tap Lee as the top general leading the Union army? If history is to be simplified into a binary mode of everyone in the Union are anti-slave champions while every single person on the Confederate side are pro-slaves bigot that should wiped out and forgotten, if Lincoln and Lee symbolize two such extreme irreconcilable views then why such interaction exist? Lee only turned his back after his state of North Virginia declared its allegiance for the Confederate. Prior to the war, he protested again the idea of secession, and he said he would give up everything he owns for the union, but he can not draw the sword upon his homestate. Had North Virginia went the path of Maryland (a slave state but stayed with the Union), than Lee would had lead the Union army without hesitation. Things like THAT is what makes history - history. I have no interest in history presented simply as bulletin point and time line with no context. History of the human has never been a simple binary matter, and to erase these lessons is to erase history itself.

I remember even before I came to the US I knew Lee had a special place in the US history and culture, despite fighting on the wrong side and lost, he were still regarded and celebrated as a national hero, a 'true' American for his values. That to me was an inspiration and made me considered the American - both as a people and a culture - is a far more superior to that of my own - the Vietnamese. And after I came to the US, in the first decade living here I was able to confirm that for myself. It is in the last decade or so with the rise of the "political correctness" movement, a certain sub-type activistism find satisfaction in not changing the future, but look for what they can get offended in the past that that Lee's status got called into question, and he's hardly the only one.


So I say this to you and everyone who think like you: if history is that simple for you and you see no reason to explore further, then may I suggest after you're done with Confederate symbols you guys move over and give the founding fathers a go as well. After all, every single one of them were a slavers up to and including Washington. Since you don't care about exploring the context, it wouldn't make any difference, right?

[Vertigo 7]

So I say this to you and everyone who think like you: if history is that simple for you and you see no reason to explore further, then may I suggest after you're done with Confederate symbols you guys move over and give the founding fathers a go as well. After all, every single one of them were a slavers up to and including Washington. Since you don't care about exploring the context, it wouldn't make any difference, right?

lol. Where are you getting your stories from? John Adams, Samuel Adams, and Thomas Paine* never owned slaves. Furthermore, many of the founding fathers had already been working towards abolishment of slavery during and immediately after the revolutionary war, including outright bans on slavery in the northern states by 1800.

*while technically not a founding father, the political activist's work is largely credited for inspiring George Washington for leading the revolutionary movement.

You do realize that no matter how many colors you put in your opinion, the fact remains that Lee and the rest of the white supremacists were enemy combatants and fought to keep human beings as property? You get that, right?

Anything else doesn't amount to a hill of shit.

Let us also not gloss over the fact that most of the white supremacist monuments didn't go up until the early 1900's, with a good chunk of them being erected as recently as the 1960's, to intimidate blacks during civil rights movements. They weren't put up to honor a damn thing.

You would do well to actually research these things before making grandiose claims.

For example, you would find this in a letter Lee wrote to his wife:

In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.

You tell me. Explain why we need to keep statues around of people that can put pen to paper and write such tripe. Why do we need to have places of honor for the dishonorable?

Sure, maybe some hillbillies do actually honor their white supremacist ancestors. But BFD Why should anyone care what white supremacists want?

[matthewfarmery]

Donald Trump: Tulsa rally fails to draw expected crowds amid virus fears

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53121488

So Trump didn't get the numbers he was looking for? I wonder why?

Also

Those attending the rally had to sign a waiver protecting the Trump campaign from responsibility for any illness. Hours before the event began, officials said six staff members involved in organising the rally had tested positive.

interesting that 6 tested positive, so if they were present or not, its unclear. But really, it was a silly thing to do, organising a rally when this virus is still doing the rounds in the US.

Oh yes, in other news.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... nald-trump

As the book will be released, despite Trump trying to block it, but a Judge was ruled against Trump. This may also do a great deal of damage to Trump. He will be a rat in a sinking ship at this point. I wonder if GOP will continue to take their chances with him? or abandon him completely? I do hope this adds fuel to the fire and sink Trump for good.

[Grim Lock]

About lee and the likes,

Figting in a war to maintain slavery on the side to keep the slaves is simply an irredeemable feature, sure when discussing the history of the man you can go in depth and explore the features beside the irredeemable ones, Erwin Rommel was more than just a Nazi, we won't be putting up statues of him in public squares though, since whatever else he was, he was a nazi.

And yeah Masterbagger, i used to watch and enjoy the Dukes of Hazard, however once i got older and figured out who this general Lee actually was and what that flag stood for, i was like WTF why would they do that? It's just like havin a couple of German boys, brewing beer illegally, while driving a Manta called the E. Rommel with a Swastika-flag on the roof. So you asked why we suddenly aren't ok with it anymore? You Americans should have never been OK with it in the first place!

[fiksal]

And ... this is exactly what people like me afraid, and have zero faith in the ' it belongs to the museum' movement that it would be able to preserve history in its authenticate form, with an objective unbiased Len. YOU may not care, but others do. I know I do, and I say that as an asian with no history of racism and no stake in the north south struggle, I say this as an 'outsider' with yellow skin.

I am not clear which do you care about, the history or the image?

Let's first agree that monuments are not history, they are often idealized, artistic, romantic representations. To invoke feelings that have nothing to do with objective history (or as objective as that field can get). And I would say are damaging to the subject matter.


To confuse monuments and history is a big mistake.


My views on Lee aren't affected by the number of statues there are. It's based on the number of books I read.

If history is to be simplified into a binary mode of everyone in the Union are anti-slave champions while every single person on the Confederate side are pro-slaves bigot that should wiped out and forgotten,

And yet the wars exactly are binary. Not everyone wearing soldier's and Nazi uniform was evil either, and yet they wore it. For example.

That to me was an inspiration and made me considered the American - both as a people and a culture - is a far more superior to that of my own - the Vietnamese.

It had the opposite effect on me. My Russian culture has always celebrated generals, political leaders and a Cult of Personality. This looked very similar and unnecessary to me.

So I say this to you and everyone who think like you: if history is that simple for you and you see no reason to explore further, then may I suggest after you're done with Confederate symbols you guys move over and give the founding fathers a go as well. After all, every single one of them were a slavers up to and including Washington. Since you don't care about exploring the context, it wouldn't make any difference, right?

Sorry but you won't find sympathy for statues of historical or political figures with me. I will not defend any.


I am only interested in more artistic ones.



EDIT:
I will not defend Lee's and I will not defend Stalin's statue. I am actually in favor of removing Stalin's statues, no matter of how much of a strong person he was that tried to lead Russia to better times.

And reading Vertigo's replies, I think I made the wrong call. Given the opinions of Lee, his statues should go down. I was wrong.

His statues should have come with the quote above, about slavery, to actually give context to them.

[Vertigo 7]

The only reasons Lee had any negative feelings towards slavery was because it was annoying for him to manage it. Chasing down runaways and putting up with resistance was overly burdensome for the white man to have to deal with.

And you see similar sentiments from Trump and his white supremacist followers today. Anytime blacks stand up for themselves, it inconveniences some white guys so it's time again for whitey to play victim.

[felter]

LOL now that rally had to have hurt Trump. It's being reported that that there was only a little over 6,000 at the rally for a stadium that holds 19,000 plus only a couple of hundred only turned up for the outside address which he cancelled, and all that after bragging that there were going to be 1 million turning up for it.



Inauguration all over again, anyone.

To make matters worse, it is being claimed that it was kids that applied for all of the tickets with no intention of turning up. I hope the Republicans are paying attention, as the Youth of today are the voters of tomorrow and it looks like they are not happy with what they are seeing from Trump and the Republicans. Not a bright future ahead for them.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

LOL now that rally had to have hurt Trump. It's being reported that that there was only a little over 6,000 at the rally for a stadium that holds 19,000 plus only a couple of hundred only turned up for the outside address which he cancelled, and all that after bragging that there were going to be 1 million turning up for it.



Inauguration all over again, anyone.

To make matters worse, it is being claimed that it was kids that applied for all of the tickets with no intention of turning up. I hope the Republicans are paying attention, as the Youth of today are the voters of tomorrow and it looks like they are not happy with what they are seeing from Trump and the Republicans. Not a bright future ahead for them.

About young people.
Saturday I went to a restaurant with a couple friends and we were waiting on queue, respecting social distancing and wearing masks, because only two at a time were permitted to go in. Out of the blue, a group of kids on their early 20s, no masks, started to push everybody and jump over the queue to enter the restaurant because "they had a reservation" (like everybody did, as reservations are mandatory for now). I thought youngsters were going to be more sensible about the situation, they were going to be more careful and more patient than older ones. I was wrong, apparently.

I'm not sure on who are youngsters voting in the future, young people's vote is what I personally hoped for years, but they're ending up voting right wing populism in Italy, instead of green parties, europeists and the likes, the ones gaining shares in continental and northern Europe.

[Vertigo 7]

Depends on who you look at, really. We have our share of ass hole kids over here too. There was a whole group of them marching with torches screaming "Jews will not replace us" shortly after Trump took office. But then there's other kids that have something resembling a head on their shoulders and are eager to see the US move forward and are active in their communities and so forth. And of course, there's the ones that fit in neither category and just play Fortnite and Animal Crossing all day long.

[clakclak]

At EU Parliament there's recently been (yesterday, I believe) a resolution condemning police brutality involved in George Floyd's death. It was a very generic resolution against racism, discrimination and hate. The vast majority of the Parliament voted in favour of the resolution, just two of the Italian parties voted against it: Lega and Fratelli d'Italia. They said the resolution was a direct attack to political parties which "think different on immigration", a direct attack to police forces and based on a "fake reality". Just yesterday belgian member of EU Parliament Ms. Hertzberger-Fofana was in tears telling her collegues about being victim of violence by belgian police while documenting their violence against two coloured boys during a routine check.
They are around 50% combined in polls in Italy. This is the most important reason for Italy to avoid in any way elections before natural end of terms.

As an EU citizen I say the EU can **** right off. They were silent when Oury Jalloh burned to death in his cell. The police officers are still free till today. They were silent when Adama Traoré was killed. Again the police officers still walk free. They were silent when Friday's for Future in Germany spoke up about police violence. And now they open their mouth, because they hope to shift the blame from Europe. They don't want people to focus on the issues with racism we have right here in front of our door. They think if they condemn America they will seem more noble in comparison. There is a reason why 8 years ago Kery James sang about France:

Letter to the Republic
To all these racists with their hypocritical tolerance
Who built their nation on blood
Now set themselves up as the givers of lessons
Plunderers of wealth, killers of Africans
Colonisers, torturers of Algerians
This colonial past, it's yours
It's you who've chosen to link your story to ours
Now, you must assume
The odour of blood follows you, even if you perfume yourselves
We, the Arabs and Blacks
We're not here by chance
Everything arrives back at where it started!
You've wished for immigration
Thanks to it, you're full up, to the point of indigestion
I believe that France has never done charity
The immigrants are just the tools of cheap labour
Keep to yourselves your Republican illusion
Of the sweet France, harmed by African immigration
Ask the Senegalese Tirailleurs and the harkis [army volunteers]
Who's profited from who?
The Republic is only innocent in your dreams
[...]
Lettre à la République
À tous ces racistes à la tolérance hypocrite
Qui ont bâti leur nation sur le sang
Maintenant s'érigent en donneurs de leçons
Pilleurs de richesses, tueurs d'africains
Colonisateurs, tortionnaires d'algériens
Ce passé colonial c'est le vôtre
C'est vous qui avez choisi de lier votre histoire à la nôtre
Maintenant vous devez assumer
L'odeur du sang vous poursuit même si vous vous parfumez
Nous les Arabes et les Noirs
On est pas là par hasard
Toute arrivée a son départ!
Vous avez souhaité l'immigration
Grâce à elle vous vous êtes gavés, jusqu'à l'indigestion
Je crois que la France n'a jamais fait la charité
Les immigrés c'n'est que la main d'oeuvre bon marché
Gardez pour vous votre illusion républicaine
De la douce France bafouée par l'immigration africaine
Demandez aux tirailleurs sénégalais et aux harkis
Qui a profité d'qui?
La République n'est innocente que dans vos songes

Germany still has the old furor or trying to teach the world how to live. "Am Deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen". The country where the first question to any black person is 'Where are you really from' wants to tell people things about acceptance and integration? Poland a country where LGBTQ people face more and more suppression voices its concern about how minorities are treated in the US? Hungary a literal dictatorship suddenly has problems when others commit acts of police violence? And France that forces the victims of it's own colonial past to live in absolute nightmare neighbourhoods like La Castellane suddenly is concerned about people facing systemic racism?

The EU needs to criticise what is happening in the US, but if they don't at the same time acknowledge that the same shit happens here and vow to bring change to the situation, than they are hypocrites, nothing more.

[Vertigo 7]

Daaayyyymmm son. I really had no idea how things were in Europe.

[Ketraar]

Daaayyyymmm son. I really had no idea how things were in Europe.

You still dont. While its true that we have many issues as clakclak listed, its nowhere near comparable with the US. Hungary for example is being called out all the time, but the issue is as usual economical and as with all in the world the need to keep the economical "stability" often gets priority over social ideals.

If the UK had not started leaving the EU, I'll bet Hungary would face much more harsher condemnations than they are facing now. So basically what I'm saying is, its the UK's fault.

MFG

Ketraar

If you missed it, this post contains humor.

[The Q]

At EU Parliament there's recently been (yesterday, I believe) a resolution condemning police brutality involved in George Floyd's death. It was a very generic resolution against racism, discrimination and hate. The vast majority of the Parliament voted in favour of the resolution, just two of the Italian parties voted against it: Lega and Fratelli d'Italia. They said the resolution was a direct attack to political parties which "think different on immigration", a direct attack to police forces and based on a "fake reality". Just yesterday belgian member of EU Parliament Ms. Hertzberger-Fofana was in tears telling her collegues about being victim of violence by belgian police while documenting their violence against two coloured boys during a routine check.
They are around 50% combined in polls in Italy. This is the most important reason for Italy to avoid in any way elections before natural end of terms.

As an EU citizen I say the EU can **** right off. [...]

There‘s no place on earth without racism. So is no one allowed to critise anyone else for their racism?! That‘s the same logic people use against Fridays for future where they say something like „oh you want us to stop using fossil fuels, but how did you came here? Your parents brought you in a car? Using fossil fuels?!1! Maybe you should stop using fossil fuels before you tell us what to do!11!1! Otherwise you‘re a hypocrite!“

If you always expect from everyone to have solved their own problems completely, before being able to point out shit that is going on elsewhere, you will have a bad time doing something against global problems like racism (or climate change for that matter).

As an EU citizen I acknowledge that the EU has problems, but I still want, even expect from the EU to point and even call out injustice anywhere in the world, be it inside or outside of the EU. In a time when even social media platforms, Fox News and Breitbart are calling out Trump, staying silent is the worst approach possible.

[notaterran]

LOL now that rally had to have hurt Trump. It's being reported that that there was only a little over 6,000 at the rally for a stadium that holds 19,000 plus only a couple of hundred only turned up for the outside address which he cancelled, and all that after bragging that there were going to be 1 million turning up for it.



Inauguration all over again, anyone.

He's such a vain, insecure person. He probably never got over Obama's crowd size being bigger than his (whrere's Freud when you need him?). When he returned from the rally he actually looked defeated.

[clakclak]

At EU Parliament there's recently been (yesterday, I believe) a resolution condemning police brutality involved in George Floyd's death. It was a very generic resolution against racism, discrimination and hate. The vast majority of the Parliament voted in favour of the resolution, just two of the Italian parties voted against it: Lega and Fratelli d'Italia. They said the resolution was a direct attack to political parties which "think different on immigration", a direct attack to police forces and based on a "fake reality". Just yesterday belgian member of EU Parliament Ms. Hertzberger-Fofana was in tears telling her collegues about being victim of violence by belgian police while documenting their violence against two coloured boys during a routine check.
They are around 50% combined in polls in Italy. This is the most important reason for Italy to avoid in any way elections before natural end of terms.

As an EU citizen I say the EU can **** right off. [...]

There‘s no place on earth without racism. So is no one allowed to critise anyone else for their racism?! That‘s the same logic people use against Fridays for future where they say something like „oh you want us to stop using fossil fuels, but how did you came here? Your parents brought you in a car? Using fossil fuels?!1! Maybe you should stop using fossil fuels before you tell us what to do!11!1! Otherwise you‘re a hypocrite!“

If you always expect from everyone to have solved their own problems completely, before being able to point out shit that is going on elsewhere, you will have a bad time doing something against global problems like racism (or climate change for that matter).

As an EU citizen I acknowledge that the EU has problems, but I still want, even expect from the EU to point and even call out injustice anywhere in the world, be it inside or outside of the EU. In a time when even social media platforms, Fox News and Breitbart are calling out Trump, staying silent is the worst approach possible.

You did not read what I wrote and it shows.

So is no one allowed to critise anyone else for their racism?!

I wrote: "The EU needs to criticise what is happening in the US, but if they don't at the same time acknowledge that the same shit happens here and vow to bring change to the situation, than they are hypocrites, nothing more."

If you always expect from everyone to have solved their own problems completely, before being able to point out shit that is going on elsewhere, you will have a bad time doing something against global problems like racism (or climate change for that matter).

Again not a relevant argument. I never said that the EU has to solve it's own problems beforehand, but it has to at the very least acknowledge them. So far it has yet to do so.

[matthewfarmery]

LOL now that rally had to have hurt Trump. It's being reported that that there was only a little over 6,000 at the rally for a stadium that holds 19,000 plus only a couple of hundred only turned up for the outside address which he cancelled, and all that after bragging that there were going to be 1 million turning up for it.



Inauguration all over again, anyone.

He's such a vain, insecure person. He probably never got over Obama's crowd size being bigger than his (whrere's Freud when you need him?). When he returned from the rally he actually looked defeated.

Now that is just priceless, I bet he was crying on the plane, I'm sure the campaign manager will either be fired, or hanging on by a mere thread. But I bet either way, he will get a lot of Trump's fury when Trump sees him.

This hopefully will be a prelude on what is coming, as he will be in tears when he is finally kicked from the WH!

[Vertigo 7]

LOL now that rally had to have hurt Trump. It's being reported that that there was only a little over 6,000 at the rally for a stadium that holds 19,000 plus only a couple of hundred only turned up for the outside address which he cancelled, and all that after bragging that there were going to be 1 million turning up for it.



Inauguration all over again, anyone.

He's such a vain, insecure person. He probably never got over Obama's crowd size being bigger than his (whrere's Freud when you need him?). When he returned from the rally he actually looked defeated.

Now that is just priceless, I bet he was crying on the plane, I'm sure the campaign manager will either be fired, or hanging on by a mere thread. But I bet either way, he will get a lot of Trump's fury when Trump sees him.

This hopefully will be a prelude on what is coming, as he will be in tears when he is finally kicked from the WH!

Honestly, I bet he will be relieved when he's voted out. It was clear he was in over his head from day 1 - his dealings with COVID and the protests have more than proven that. It was pretty obvious to me that he thought that he was just going to channel surf with a bucket of ribs at his side and tweet racist nonsense for 4 years.

The tears will come later when the handcuffs are slapped on his wrists.

[The Q]

...


You did not read what I wrote and it shows.

I did read and understand what you wrote. Maybe where you live f*** off has a different meaning though. As a sanity check, please tell everyone you meet tomorrow to f*** off, then report back here what they say.

You may also want to invest some time into the research of the work of the European Commission against discrimination, racism and xenophobia or into the work of the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI) which examines the situation concerning manifestations of racism and intolerance in each of the Council of Europe member states.

[Alan Phipps]

Let's not continue down the 'What f*** off means' rabbit hole. Let's keep the discussion on-topic and impersonal thanks.